fhomess

You do realize witches always die in fairy tales, don't you?

I'd like the Pilldickle Catterweed Alto Pill, please. I'd like the Pilldickle Catterweed Alto Pill, please. Now, with more bolding.

Boo ya.

Thanks for the detailed analysis on everyone, as well as the teams. Useful nuggets all around and that kind of effort and thought can only make EB Mafia better. I will work on scumming up my town game.

Boo ya.

All my old legos are still at my dad's house and this just increases my desire to go back and sort through it all. Part of the problem is that my older brother and I both want some of it, and our stuff is all mixed in there. It's not all in great shape, but we had a lot of space, castle, and town from the late 70's/early 80's. The Galaxy Commander was probably my favorite set of that era. I picked up some of the pirates stuff in the late 80's that my brother probably doesn't have as much claim to, but we'll see how it goes. Neither of us live close to my dad, so getting together to review it and sort it out will be a bit of a chore.

1) How many Mafia games have you played here? 8 2) What's your favorite emoticon to use during Mafia? 3) Is there anything you would change about this design? Does one side seem under powered? Why? There's really two ways to go about dealing with the issue of vanilla's waiting for an investigation result. You can give out more roles, so that someone is bound to have some sort of night action result to go on. Or you can give out very few roles, so that there's very little to go off of and vote/post analysis is the primary scum hunting method. It's clear that this game intends to be more of the former. That said, I expect it to be a swingy game dependent on some key night action combinations that favor one side or the other. It's hard to say if one side is over or under powered in such a game, because it'll depend on player choices with their night actions.

Ok, as promised, here's my more detailed commentary. Hinck, comments about game balance are intended as observations rather than criticism and I'm well aware that games can be rather swingy depending on how people end up playing. This was my first Hinck game, too. Game Setup I think the scum team had a very powerful array of tools at their disposal. Scum role cops are every bit as powerful to a scum team as a town cop. Bus drivers are more powerful than scum protectors since they redirect all actions instead of just defending against kills. Add traditional godfather and blocker roles and this was a strong team. I would argue that their 7th role was Scum Analyst. A non-playing contributor who can advise, and that was the duality of Rick/Pandora. Looking at the team, though, this was a strong group top to bottom, so it's not surprising they did well. Their night action choices early on were ruthlessly effective. As for scum knowing the real identities, I don't think it made a big difference, although I do think it was against the spirit of the game's anonymous player identities. I'm sure it affected how they communicated somewhat with each other on the scum writeboard. Knowing identities does change the way you interact with people just like knowing the label on a bottle changes the way you feel about a product. The SK setup was pretty cool, and certainly something I didn't expect. The fact that it was, in effect, a weakened SK, led me to believe that dual town protectors would be LESS likely, not more. I've been trying to figure out how useful the Lover Recruiter or 1-shot Coroner is to town. The lover recruiter is, I guess, slightly more powerful than traditional lovers as they can choose not to engage in the role or hope to target a non-townie and take someone else down with them. Darth Potato didn't get much chance to think about it, though. As for the coroner, finding out a player's role after their dead is interesting but I don't see how helpful it was in this game. It wasn't used, but it seems most useful in figuring out which scum role was lost when a scum player dies, and if you can pass on scum roles, that doesn't help in the future. I guess the best time to use it would have been on Barky the night after his lynch. That might've saved Drub? I don't know. I liked the Gladiator role, and would love to see it used again in a future game where it can make it to a later day. The rest of the town PR's were mostly standard fare. The Investigator being of the flavor that he was meant that it wasn't really safe to approach townies he investigated. Cornelius/Boris got a result of "Not Odor Eater" on me the first night, and I never heard about it till the end of the game. Obviously, getting role copped night 1 and killed night 2 helps prevent that. I really liked the anonymous style, although I don't necessarily prefer it to using our standard accounts. I would think that occasionally using aliases to play with is fun given that a lot of us know each other's play style, but I wouldn't want to see every game go this route. Maybe 1 in 4 or 5. There's an element of fun in playing the metagamey way, too. I tried not to think too much about who was who, although there were times when someone would post something and I'd briefly wonder if they were a certain player. One name that popped into my head was Waterbrick Down, which shows how much attention I really paid to signups as he wasn't in this one! As for the bodyguard/protector combo - no I didn't go back to look at previous Hinck games to see. I hadn't played in a Hinck game until now, and I wouldn't have trusted a host to be consistent in this regard anyway. Metagaming players and metagaming hosts doesn't always lead to the right answers. I was correct that Hinck didn't give us two identical roles on the same team, though. Character/Gameplay Observations Tammo/Orion - I really had you pegged as scum by the end of the game, and while I was wrong on it, I'm also glad about it in another sense. It has struck me that ever since Jedi Temple I've noticed that I find your scummy in just about every game. It's actually been a bit frustrating to me because I don't want to think that I'm still letting that experience color my view of your playing. This game, not knowing that you were Orion, makes me feel much better. You simply play scummy in my mind, and it's not strictly because I know it's you. Def/Helena - I didn't have any problem with your choice of holding the town hostage. I was a bit surprised that you didn't try to let Pink get lynched and then try to survive the rest of the game without her, but seeing that you had "twin sister" in your role description, it's easy to understand why you thought you'd die with her. Why did you bother with waiting the 24 hours? Was that just for dramatic effect? It certainly didn't convince me to want to let you live. Dave/Purplonia - When I reread one of the days, I think it was Day 3, and saw that you had called someone out for using "They" to refer to the Vig rather than "He/She", I thought that was pretty funny with the hindsight of you being paired with Def. I still don't understand this. Did Zepher/Barky actually claim bodyguard, or did you just interpret them as being the same? You had some rather specific detail to what you told me in PM such as him being a bodyguard with 50% chance of surviving. Did you just get the PM's from Barky and Panck mixed up in your head? You did the right thing! I really felt like changing my day 5 vote to Lulu for this, but in the end figured we had to deal with the Panck vs. Firuz issue at some point, and I didn't see how we were going to get more information to resolve it in future days. By the end of Day 4, I was pretty sure that all of the scum were on the Barky bandwagon, with possibly Gertrude or Timly as a scum. A bit into day 4, I decided Gertrude was town and that Timly was the only possible scum there. That didn't ultimately help in the end, but at least I didn't have anyone firmly in my Town camp that was scum except Firuz, who was only there because I had misunderstood Barky to have an identical claim as Panck. It never really dawned on me that the scum might've discovered Looney was the Vig by role cop. I was convinced that Helena was going to work with the scum because we needed to kill her and they didn't. On Day 5, I made a point of not letting people know that I knew Looney was the Vig because I thought it might swing people to try to lynch me. Scuba/Ariattny made a strong point of saying to me on Day 5 that he found Firuz to be more likely to be scum than Panck, so props to him on that. It was pointless to suggest on Day 5, but I did wonder what else I might have done to try to convince townies to take their vote off Barky and put them back on Helena. One thing that came to mind was to have Barky and Panck protect Belinda and Looney. I figured the scum already knew Looney's identity at that point (I was right, but for the wrong reason), so I figured if both protectors had protected the two remaining town roles we knew of, then it would have been likely that one of them would've been the scum target and they'd either all survive the night or one of them would be killed and we'd know who failed. Of course, a blocker/killer combo would've easily solved that issue, but we'd have lost townies a bit slower that way. I still don't understand why townies chose an uncertain lynch over a certain one. In the end, I think Days 1 and 2 were doomed to the flailing of panicky townies and scum taking advantage of that. Day 3 was where we started to make some progress but were tricked by Def. To that point, the scum night actions had all done REALLY well for them, and I think it would've taken quite a bit for us to have recovered. By the end of Day 4, we were essentially done for. I think we could've recovered, and convinced myself to believe it was possible, but given we had so little to work with and the scum were so far ahead, the chances of us getting beyond a successful scum lynch or two were pretty slim. Votes for Scum: Day 1: Helena, Barky for Lulu (both unvoted) Day 1: Dillpickle for Bart Bearbutt (unvoted) Day 2: Barky for Rutherford Day 2: Twatty for Firuz (unvoted) Day 2: Helena for Timly (unvoted) Day 3: Dillpickle, Orion for Langston (both unvoted) Day 4: Twatty for Bart Bearbutt (unvoted) Day 5: Panck for Firuz 177 votes were cast during this game and we had a total of 10 votes go towards Odor Eaters! That's less than 6%. Of course, only 1% of those made it through to the end of the day in which they were cast, and one of those was Panck's on the last day. Bah!

I have a lot of thoughts about this game, but they'll come in more detail later. First, though, I really had a lot of fun despite being part of the flailing town. I really felt like we could have pulled off the victory even on Day 5, but the protector issue was a real problem. The main problem for me was that Barkonius had been convinced there weren't two protectors, and never properly clarified that he wasn't a bodyguard. I was open to the idea that there was a bodyguard and a protector the day we lynched Barky, but by the end of that day, I was convinced that Barky's claim was actually bodyguard. I partially blame Belinda for that as she was pretty clear in her communication to me on it, and used it as the basis for Barky being the scummier of the two protector claims. With that in mind, I didn't see room for them both. Thanks to everyone for putting up with my thees and thous.

I know Godfather is considered normal, but I think it's a much more challenging role to deal with as town than Framer. With a Framer, it doesn't take that long to figure out if one exists. With Godfather, it basically comes down to the end of the game when there are no other options left. It's suprising that both were used in this game. Most players really impressed me. I thought Hammerstein town told on day 2 when he said this: I didn't think a scum would confuse the idea of a killer and a framer in a Mafia School game, so it took me a while to start changing my thinking on him. I was sad to see LegoDad back off on things in midgame when his attempted town leadership wasn't working out. I really felt like he was working hard for town. I might've done the same thing if all my buddies were getting killed, though. Well played, scum!

Understood. I am a little sensitive to the smart phone thing because it is becoming increasingly assumed that people have them. I do appreciate the time the host puts in and feel like I've always given the games I've been a part of an appropriate level of effort.

I have to say, that I'm really surprised at how well the scum did in this game given the difficulties they had. Killing one of their own on night 1 and failing to recruit ANYONE? It's impressive that they survived that long, although I didn't follow the latter days in detail other than to see who was coming and going. I believe the I've twice been cleared as townie by having someone post PM's I've sent them that they interpreted as scummy. The rest of the players read my PM's differently as if I were townie. I think it was in Ragnorak when Draggy outed me and another time I don't remember the details of. That said, I don't like the posting of PM's as it takes away an element of gameplay that I think enhances the game - interpreting and conveying what others are saying to you and passing that information on to others. It simply makes the game more interesting when you don't know exactly how someone worded things. While it might help scum a little, town can take advantage of that ambiguity, too. I can understand the frustration here, but in this game the mason mechanic makes that different. The mason recruitment meant that town had a confirmed block. That's not too different than any other confirmed town block that's based on more traditional night actions. To be outside of the town block in those games ALSO generates suspicion until you're confirmed by other means. In this game, the double recruitment possibilities meant that almost every player was going to have a connection to one side or the other enhanced by more than just behavioral analysis. Like it or not, metagaming is a part of that additional analysis in every game, so I think you're overreacting here. Were that really the entire basis for the lynch, then yes, but everybody needs somewhere to start and this seems like reasonable grounds for suspicion. I agree with the sentiment of this post, but don't assume everyone has a smart phone. I don't, and I actually even know of a few people who still don't have cell phones at all. As I said, though, if you commit to a game, finding a few minutes here and there over the course of a 72 hour day should be a priority you make time for. That's what the commitment means. I shook my head a lot at you in this game, Dave, but I'm also glad you learned from it. It's easier to learn from some mistakes than others. While I didn't agree with what you were doing at times, it was clear that you invested a lot of time and energy in trying to do the right thing, which is great. 　 Very much this. Hinck took advantage of his reputation to infiltrate the town, and Rick's reputation helped get him lynched eventually. Ultimately, those reputations are well earned. Nightshroud has had some fantastic games as town PR's. Wasn't he the vig in Cirque du Freak? I always find him somewhat scummy, though.

We're all going to be assigned roles that are named after other players. So instead of claiming vanilla, you'll have to claim KingoftheZempk.

Clutch Power!

This is blatant manipulation and I won't stand for it. 1. I am town. I am not now, nor have I ever been mafia. 2. I can physically only maintain focus on any one topic for a maximum of 8 seconds. I also have a conference that will limit my availability 22-24 April, but will be completely free after that. 3. I like to procrastinate, so I will just think of this as a 1 hour deadline that starts 19 hours after the day ends. 4. Probably this voting fiasco. 5. Vanilla townies are crunchy and good with ketchup. 6. I promise not to tell anyone when I'm metagaming.

Heh... I thought Tammo was scum as far back as day 3.

A year from now, we'll all be visiting Chinabricks.

I think your hat looks more like an anteater.

It seems to me that a good approach would be to lock the day thread at the end of the day, then reopen it once the new day is posted. That would keep people who aren't paying attention to the time or posting simultaneously as the host at the end of the day from having their posts accepted. By the time the new day is posted, people know not to post in the old thread. Too bad the old multiquote trick no longer works on the new forum.

Tammo seems to have the same toupee in a lot of these games...

I don't have the time at the moment.

Nonsense. Majority lynch has a significant impact on the game regardless of how long the day is. Much better than highest vote getter. Mandatory vote is also a wonderful invention and should always be enforced when stated as a rule, unlike some recent games here on EB.

5. Freighter over Ice Planet Biodome - Lt. de Martinet - 1 point 13. Invasion! - 4estFeller - 1 point 39. Tron light cycles - Scootercide - 1 point 68. Alien Autopsy - legolegolegolego - 1 point 72.The City of Tomorrow - touthomme - 1 point

Yes, I realize that's not what actually happened, it just looked like a possibility as Tammo started to appear scummy to me the day prior. I was surprised the scum took so long to connect. Given how well things were going earlier in the game, it seemed like their actions were aligning fairly well. Although, the lack of a scum kill early may have also made it harder for scum to get a read on the other scum team. I don't know, it's very hard to know how I would've reacted had I been involved. Some of the stronger players play more fearlessly no matter what their role or alignment is. That's part of what makes it hard to read them.

I'm glad I wasn't a part of it as I had some other stuff going on, but this one was fun to watch. I was surprised at how often people questioned the setup after Def specifically told people what it would be. I really think this game just went really well for scum. A lot of luck fell their way... and Shadows wonders why he's often killed early. TrumpetKing - don't be too hard on yourself with your vig kill targets. No vig will ever be as bad as I was in Excalibur 2.0 and you did get two scum toward the end. The only real problem I saw was that you killed on Night 0 when it was not compulsory (at least I had that going for me). I confess that when Tammo was speaking in l33t, I couldn't help but think that the scum had intentionally done that to him so it would be easier for him to be ignored by the town. I wanted more Banana Sphinx! Curse you chickens who didn't want to play his games. On the topic of vanilla's... obviously, vanilla's who just sit back and wait for things to come from the PR's are not helping town at all. I sometimes think that the approach to playing vanilla should be similar to the approach when playing scum. In both cases, you want to look like a useful townie with a PR. As scum, it's so that you can blend in and have some explanation for your actions. As vanilla, it's so that the scum might be more inclined to kill you than a real town PR. In a game like this one, where the conversions were restricted to vanilla's, it would make it easier for scum to fail on their conversion attempt.