Star Wars: The Clone Wars - Season 5 Discussion

[Cyberbricker]

I can't really buy the story of Barriss beeing the "traitor" and turning to the "Dark Side", at least not in this way. I don't think she could go from beeing a model padawan to becoming a killer of innocent people.

I would have bought the story better if they played it out that indeed, with here strong senses, she felt the Order was beeing manipulated and the Senate was corrupted. That she then explained here feelings to Luminara and maybe that Barriss comes to the inside that she needs to support the protesters against the war and that by doing so she unwillingly played a role in the temple bombing. Then they could still play out mush of the story with Ahsoka.

But this is just a bridge to far for me.

On an other note!!

If barriss is expelled from the Order and imprisoned, does this mean that maybe she survived "order 66"? On the wikipages it states that she died wile on a mission with luminara trying to stop the pollution of a water supply, i don't think she will be going on any missions with Luminare after this ordeal!?

[Mr Man]

I don't think anything Barriss did was influenced by the Dark Side, her actions were dark, but not evil.

Surly she could have just stepped down as a commander, I don't remember it ever say that it was compulsory for a Jedi to join the GAR.

also since when was every last Jedi trained in Jar'Kai? It seems just about all of them pick up an extra lightsabre at some point.

[Mraz Skintas]

Well Barriss hadn't been on screen a whole lot before this arc, so it's possible she was trained in Jar'Kai then, but as for Anakin,who knows. Maybe he picked it up fighting Ventress so much, and then passed it down to Ahsoka, since she randomly became proficient in it as well

[Cyberbricker]

I don't think anything Barriss did was influenced by the Dark Side, her actions were dark, but not evil.

Surly she could have just stepped down as a commander, I don't remember it ever say that it was compulsory for a Jedi to join the GAR.

also since when was every last Jedi trained in Jar'Kai? It seems just about all of them pick up an extra lightsabre at some point.

The thing is that the Wikipages say that she joined the Dark Side? But I don't like to think she did... She just felt she had to take action and that she was doing this in the best interest of the people and the Jedi Order. She could of course have handled this better.

.

Edited March 3, 2013 by Cyberbricker

[simonjedi]

I like that the Jedi council was all "Welp we made a mistake sorr- No wait, not our fault, Will of the force blah blah blah, you're a better jedi now! Want to come back? We're cool now right?"

[Mr Man]

I like that the Jedi council was all "Welp we made a mistake sorr- No wait, not our fault, Will of the force blah blah blah, you're a better jedi now! Want to come back? We're cool now right?"

When Mace mentioned 'trials' I thought they where going to promote her to Knight.

[Sir_Basil_Ashton]

Even if they had promoted Ahsoka to Knight, she would have left. It would have been better if the Jedi Council had promoted her first. Ahsoka was betrayed by both the Jedi Order and the Republic, she couldn't just come back into the fold.

[TeufelHund]

I guess I can't blame Lucasarts too much for making it a little too obvious Barris was the traitor (it is a kid's show afterall) but surely they could have found someone a little more sinister to take the fall. It was kind of dumb that she suggested the red lightsabers suited her (implying she was turning to the dark side) then when confessing instead saying she did it because the jedi have lost their way (implying it was a protest).

Thank god Ashoka walked away from the Jedi though. It was interesting that Anakin revealled he had been considering the same thing. I also got the impression that Mace was suggesting she should be promoted to Jedi Knight if she returned.

In short, the vast majority of the Jedi council end up looking like idiots or simple yes men that do whatever Mace says. So much for Yoda's 800 years of accumulated wisdom, I guess.

[Mraz Skintas]

Mace did make most of the decisions for the Council in the movies as well, with very few speaking parts for the rest of the members. As for Barriss implying that she'd gone to the Dark side, it makes sense to me, as most of the other fallen Jedi also left the Order because they found it to be corrupt.

[The_Chosen_1]

Thank god Ashoka walked away from the Jedi though. It was interesting that Anakin revealed he had been considering the same thing.

From a certain point of view, perhaps. His exact quote was: "More than you realize, I understand wanting to walk away from the Order." It doesn't mean that he's actually been considering walking away from the Jedi Order, just that he empathy for Ahoska based on his own circumstances with Padme. In that respect, Ahsoka has been able to do what her master couldn't bring himself to do.

[Churchill]

I loved this arc. I can't believe that they made me actually feel the way I do about the Jedi Council... disappointed, I guess? I hope that there is a season 6. I still think that there are some gaps with ROTS. From a fellow Pittsburgher, Filoni did a great job with this one!

[Mr Man]

There is still the last 3 episodes that where cut (An Old Friend, Rise of Clovis, Crisis at the Heart).

Edit: It's amusing watching the irony of these last 4 episodes and thinking of Operation Knightfall, 2 episodes ago we see Anakin talking casually to Cin Drallig, next thing we will see is him killing him over security hologram .

Edited March 4, 2013 by Mr Man

[Csacsa234]

The thing is that the Wikipages say that she joined the Dark Side? But I don't like to think she did... She just felt she had to take action and that she was doing this in the best interest of the people and the Jedi Order. She could of course have handled this better.

.

I think the same, Since there is Barriss Offee in the Star Wars universe, I thought that she is the less corrupted, most dedicated Jedi in the order. She always looked so innocent, and all stories just confirmed that about her. And now BANG she is a traitor, it's hard to believe it, now the SW wiki writers have some work to alter her life .

I'm also disappointed, because she was one of my favorite Jedi, on the other side I'm happy that the truth come out and Ahsoka lives. Although i was really sad when she left the order, but it was understandable.

Dave Filoni is making awesome episodes lately and I hope he makes a tradition of it IMO that episode was on of the best of the CW series.

Oh and I liked the involving of Assajj, She is my favourite female character form the SW universe and I'm happy that the storywriters didn't kill her when Dooku wanted to replace her with Savage.

Edited March 4, 2013 by Csacsa234

[BrickG]

Arcs like this make me wonder why they don't fire the people who write the OTHER episodes. You know, since half Clone Wars episodes range from terrible to meh (Jar Jar to Kid's show). Then there's some jewels in there.

I mean episodes like this last one (despite some true oddities like he saying the red sabers suit her) are leagues and bounds better than the Prequel movies. But then some episodes are basically the same as the prequel movies and have annoyingly childish slapstick crap and dumb writing.

Edited March 4, 2013 by BrickG

[Brickadeer]

The whole arc was great, just a few loose thoughts on the last episode:

The Senate demanded that Ahsoka should be expelled from the order. Windu resisted officially, but said that the Coucil should avoid opposition to the Senate. Thus, the Council gave in to an external pressure: in giving up their own standards, they gave up Ahsoka as well. Anakin was right to say that, "this meeting is just a formality". Ultimately, the Council's decision was driven by fear or at least uncertainty.

(Behind Palpatine, finally Royal Guards appeared.)

Palpatine said the truth when he said that this was just another scheme to rip the Republic and the Jedi Order apart. He knows that Ahsoka's trial before the Court is part of the scheme, while others don't. I like this irony (= the fact that he can say in public what he's doing, simply because his true identity as Darth Sidious is unknown, something he did in a previous episode in, if I remember correctly, Season 4) and the way how he plays with the truth, just like Dooku played with the truth when he said (in EP 2) that reason for the emergence of the Seperatist movement is the fact that the Senate is controled by a Sith - which was true, while Yoda supposed this information to be just another lie.

Consequently, Barris was correct when she said that the Jedi are responsible for the war (against the Seperatists). She was correct as well when she said that the Jedi Order became an army fighting for the dark side, and she was correct in saying that the Republic is failing, and that this is only a matter of time.

edit:

Oh, something I forgot: I found interesting that when Ahsoka departed from Anakin, the same musical scheme was played as in EP 5 when Luke departed from Yoda. And in both themes, the motive of understanding was invoked.

Edited March 4, 2013 by Brickadeer

[BrickG]

I think this is having a somewhat negative affect on the view of Yoda. I could believe that he was fooled but the acts of the other members of the Jedi council make it seem like he's completely out of the loop even when it comes to the jedi council. Obviously him and Obiwan were two of the "no" votes on doing that to her. But still... The d00d is supposed to be wise.

I always thought of him as a wise man who got owned by an even "wiser" man (Palpatine being more clever). But I feel like he's just as dumb as the rest of them these days. :P

I'd like to see even Yoda get a bit confrontational with the council himself. Obviously never leaving it but he could have put up more of a fight for Ashoka.

[Mraz Skintas]

Of the 12 members of the council, I'm sure that if each member was actually able to speak, then it'd probably be at least 50/50 on Ahsoka leaving or staying. Yoda, Obi-wan, and Plo Koon would have been no on her leaving for sure. They could probably get three more votes as well. But I guess by them not all speaking up, it showed Ahsoka who the council really was, and helped her make the decision to not stay, while not falling to the dark side.

[Brickadeer]

I think this is having a somewhat negative affect on the view of Yoda. I could believe that he was fooled but the acts of the other members of the Jedi council make it seem like he's completely out of the loop even when it comes to the jedi council. Obviously him and Obiwan were two of the "no" votes on doing that to her. But still... The d00d is supposed to be wise.

I always thought of him as a wise man who got owned by an even "wiser" man (Palpatine being more clever). But I feel like he's just as dumb as the rest of them these days. :P

I'd like to see even Yoda get a bit confrontational with the council himself. Obviously never leaving it but he could have put up more of a fight for Ashoka.

The Council had no options.

If Ahsoka was not expelled, it would have been open for attack: Tarkin could have accused the Council of protecting the saboteur against prosecution and plotting against the Senate. However, by exposing Ahsoka to a public trial and by proving her innocense, it was shown that the Council was wrong in expelling her from the Jedi Order. In other words: what Palpatine achieved is to make apparent an error of judgement made by the Jedi Council. And he made apparent that a coherent Jedi Order no longer exists, since members of the Order began to turn against the Order.

Edited March 4, 2013 by Brickadeer

[Oky]

Was no one else bothered the Barriss Offee was responsible for the temple bombing or that she tried to set up Ahsoka to take the blame? Sure we all knew it was going to be her and I know that she expressed some resenment towards the jedi's role in the war earlier in the series, but why would she suddenly become a mass murderer and try to kill her friend? It seemed a little off considering what we had seen of her character thus far.

I know what you mean, but they obviously chose Barris for shock value, both for the viewers and for Ahsoka. They even replaced her lightsaber in that shot with Anakin holding it in the trailer to throw people off. I think it would have been fine if they would have explained Barris's change a little more, but as it is it does seem a little far fetched that she would suddenly become so evil. Oh well, it was still a good story.

also since when was every last Jedi trained in Jar'Kai? It seems just about all of them pick up an extra lightsabre at some point.

A good question, but I'm a little more concerned about the fact that she knew how to force choke. That's definitely something they don't teach at the Jedi Temple, so did she somehow teach it to herself like Anakin? Also, they never explained how she was able to get into the prison cell, kill Letta, get out, and help Ahsoka escape, all without being seen or sensed by anybody! Was she hiding under the floor or something?

[Artanis I]

The Council had no options.

If Ahsoka was not expelled, it would have been open for attack: Tarkin could have accused the Council of protecting the saboteur against prosecution and plotting against the Senate. However, by exposing Ahsoka to a public trial and by proving her innocense, it was shown that the Council was wrong in expelling her from the Jedi Order. In other words: what Palpatine achieved is to make apparent an error of judgement made by the Jedi Council. And he made apparent that a coherent Jedi Order no longer exists, since members of the Order began to turn against the Order.

Exactly, they were damned if they did and damned if they didn't.

To all the people annoyed at the portrayal of the council being confused, lacking wisdom etc remember everything is being clouded by the dark side. The jedi are trying to keep that secret. Usually they would be able to discern by using the force. Unfortunately now it has been made public that their abilities are weakened.

[Vindicare]

I stopped reading this thread about halfway through page 23. I missed quite a bit of the season, it seems. Like Embo cruising in the snow on his disc hat. Where would be the best place to see full episodes?

[Oky]

I missed quite a bit of the season, it seems. Like Embo cruising in the snow on his disc hat.

Actually, that's the one part you didn't miss. That scene is from one of the episodes that got pushed off to the next season.

I believe MillenniumFalcon.com is still the best place to get the episodes.

[Brickadeer]

Also, they never explained how she was able to get into the prison cell, kill Letta, get out, and help Ahsoka escape, all without being seen or sensed by anybody! Was she hiding under the floor or something?

Barriss confessed her responsibility for the bombing. She didn't confess killing Letta. She may have been responsible for Letta's death, but this point wasn't clarified. On the one hand, it was mentioned that the Jedi who did Ventress must have decent sneaking- or hiding skills. On the other hand, I find it hard to swallow that little Barriss became so powerfull as to ambush Ventress and defeat Ahsoka in direct combat.

All in all, I find it hard to believe that Barriss could get into the prison without help from military personal.

[Csacsa234]

I think it would have been fine if they would have explained Barris's change a little more, but as it is it does seem a little far fetched that she would suddenly become so evil. Oh well, it was still a good story.

I hope they make an episode where we can find out more about barriss's reason for treachery.

A good question, but I'm a little more concerned about the fact that she knew how to force choke. That's definitely something they don't teach at the Jedi Temple, so did she somehow teach it to herself like Anakin? Also, they never explained how she was able to get into the prison cell, kill Letta, get out, and help Ahsoka escape, all without being seen or sensed by anybody! Was she hiding under the floor or something?

Anakin knew how to force choke too while he was Jedi and I'm sure that no one in the order taught him that. If you think about it it's nothing special, just squeeze somebody's neck with the Force

Edited March 5, 2013 by Csacsa234

[Brickadeer]

I know what you mean, but they obviously chose Barris for shock value, both for the viewers and for Ahsoka. They even replaced her lightsaber in that shot with Anakin holding it in the trailer to throw people off. I think it would have been fine if they would have explained Barris's change a little more, but as it is it does seem a little far fetched that she would suddenly become so evil. Oh well, it was still a good story.

I hope they make an episode where we can find out more about barriss's reason for treachery.

From Barriss perspective, she committed no treachery. What she faces is a classical moral dilemma: She arrived - for whatever reasons - at the conclusion that it's the Jedi Order who's responsible for the war, that the Jedi Order has become something different than an order of peacekeepers, namely a tool in the hand of the dark side, and that ultimately, the Order's action will lead to the failure of the Republic.

In this situation, she has two options: she can do nothing, which means that the Jedi Order and the Republic will fail - it's only a matter of time, as she said. On the other hand, she can do something. Of course she could have tried to talk things out. But the point is that she is in no position to influence the current course of the Jedi Order and the decisions of the Council. Her statement made very clear that she doesn't perceive herself as a traitor; she said that her attack on temple was an attack on what the Jedi had become. In order to do so, she had to give up her identity as a peaceful being as well, but to her, this is, so to say, the lesser evil. (To summarize this point up: she can do either nothing which means that the Jedi Order is doomed, or she can act which means that she is doomed. That's precisely the dilemma she was facing.) So rather than trying to change the current course of the Order from inside, she created an event in order to create external pressure from the outside: the Council is forced to realize that the public perception of the Order and its actions has changed.

However, she acted to some degree selfish as well in trying to hide the tracks leading to her being responsible for the bombing, and acted somehow reckless when she said that Ventress' lightsabres suit her well.

Edited March 5, 2013 by Brickadeer