[SURVEY] Robot Inventor vs Spike Prime app

[Jim]

As you might know, the MINDSTORMS Robot Inventor and SPIKE Prime sets each have a corresponding app but they can also function with the other app as well. Without any tracking it is hard to see if this cross compatibility is being used. In order to learn more about this experience the MINDSTORMS team has created a small survey to learn about app preference.

Survey: https://forms.office.com/r/7M6njNTHnj

The survey will be open until February 18th.

[Skookumjim]

It is hard to comprehend why Lego created 2 different apps rather than a single all encompassing one.

[Jim]

On 2/11/2022 at 8:03 PM, Skookumjim said:

It is hard to comprehend why Lego created 2 different apps rather than a single all encompassing one.

Exactly! TLG makes very strange decisions when it comes to electronics and apps. Why PoweredUp and Control+ instead of a single name.

[Gimmick]

On 2/12/2022 at 8:41 AM, Jim said:

Exactly! TLG makes very strange decisions when it comes to electronics and apos. Why PoweredUp and Control+ instead of a single name.

It depends.

If programs or target groups are diffrent enough it makes sense to deploy different programs and therefore reduce complexity and size.

But...

Since PU has fixed programs for the Krokodil or Piano I would say: It does not make sense to implement fixed profiles into the program, that is made for editing and creating your own programs. Everything inside PU should be accessible. C+ as seperate addition is completely ok from my view.

[Jim]

36 minutes ago, Gimmick said:

Since PU has fixed programs for the Krokodil or Piano I would say: It does not make sense to implement fixed profiles into the program, that is made for editing and creating your own programs. Everything inside PU should be accessible. C+ as seperate addition is completely ok from my view.

I do understand what you mean, but it would be way less confusing if there was a single app with a single name and a single product line.

PoweredUp, Mindstorms, Boost, Control+, Spike, to name but a few. I would rather see these products using a single name, especially since all components are compatible.

You can still implement fixed profiles in an app where you can also create your own programs. Why not have everything available in a single app?

Or maybe something like "PoweredUp Mindstorms", "PoweredUp Boost", "PoweredUp Spike", so they all belong to the PoweredUp product line with different set/product names.

[Lok24]

Yes, it is not quite clear.

But these are different things mixed up:

"Powered Up" defines the plug and the protocol used, it's not a product.

"Mindstoms", "Boost", "Spike" are themes, like "City" or "train"

Theses "Themes" can contain Powered up components

And yes, there ist a Theme "Powered Up" in the shop where you can buy hubs and motors.

"Control+" ist just an app to control several technic models

The "Powered Up App" should be the "Powered Up programming app"

For the City models there should be a separated app "Control City"

What's wrong?

There are two "apps" for Spike and Mindstorms, and all  these three hubs cannot be accessed via "Powered Up App".

And there are too many things that don't work, like connecting a remote to the technic hub, connecting move hub, technic motors in loops not properly working and so on

(and a lot of confusion by users naming "Technic Sets" as "Control+ Sets", as far as I know lego never did.)

 

[Jim]

Well spoken! That's exactly what I mean.

[Lok24]

One idea might be:

the apps show different models to be selected.
And the specific building instructions and so on.

So from the users point of view they are very different.

But the "Help Topics" say:

Tips for using the LEGO Education SPIKE™ Prime app and the LEGO MINDSTORMS® Robot Inventor app

SPIKE Prime and Robot Inventor are two very different LEGO Robotics sets, but they both use the same programming language and come with the same type of robot hub. These helpful tips will come in handy if you’re putting together either one of them.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Lok24

[Toastie]

9 hours ago, Lok24 said:

And there are too many things that don't work, like connecting a remote to the technic hub, connecting move hub, technic motors in loops not properly working and so on

(and a lot of confusion by users naming "Technic Sets" as "Control+ Sets", as far as I know lego never did.)

Indeed, very nice summary, Werner.

The thing is, though: Something went >terribly wrong< in TLGs marketing department when it comes to their BLE stuff. >When< you pay very close attention to what's on their boxes (which I hardly buy anymore), AND what is in their help files (which take on lengths and additions and removals as instructions on "Covid-19 measures and regulations" do) you may get a clue. However, when you just want to build things and then use any of their BLE stuff with any of their BLE clients, you better do an in-depth study of what works and what doesn't. Which is starkly contrasting their "building across multiple themes philosophy", which has been abandoned some time ago.

Oh well. Maybe the fast and furious kicked this all off - and now it just keeps going.

Best regards,
Thorsten 

[Gimmick]

7 hours ago, Toastie said:

Which is starkly contrasting their "building across multiple themes philosophy", which has been abandoned some time ago.

In theory this got better because everything has the same plug now, right? :D

They realy should update the firmwares more regularly. A technic set with a motor, that does not work in PU for months is rediculous :<

[Lok24]

Yes, and thats the point :

15 hours ago, Toastie said:

IHowever, when you just want to build things and then use any of their BLE stuff with any of their BLE clients, you better do an in-depth study of what works and what doesn't. 

 

Exactly that is wrong. Three steps

All three PU Hubs with any Motor/Sensor/Remote (includes Spike/RI)  and the Powered Up App

A hint in the Boost sets to use this to have all available as above

All three SPIKE/RI with any Motor/Sensor/Remote (includes Spike/RI)  and all of the  SPIKE/RI Apps

Someone should be able to make some graphics to show the users how to use........

[Toastie]

10 minutes ago, Lok24 said:

Someone should be able to make some graphics to show the users how to use

Yeah, exactly my point: Someone somewhere in TLG's marketing department should be able to do this and put that graphics onto every box containing BLE devices.

Also, a little list of "what is what" on every of such boxes would also be very helpful. Or at least be available in the retail stores. I believe I have a reasonable idea what is what - and sort of for what works with what and what does not, as per your list above.

I must admit though that I try to follow TLGs evolving BLE zoo of devices for some time now. And then I just imagine, I were new to the game; it would be extremely helpful for orientation to have a figure/list which categorizes into software (apps) and hardware (devices) and HW wise into the sub-categories controller, actuator, sensor. Would be some drawing, I believe, but worth the time making it.

I asked my sister (high-school education, 2 grown-up kids, knows classical LEGO and classical LEGO Technic) what these four devices can do - along with this info from TLGs website:

1. "Hub" =  88009. "Use the LEGO® Powered Up 88009 Hub to power and control Powered Up sensors and motors."
2. "Technic Hub" = 88012. "Bring LEGO® Technic™ creations to life with the LEGO Powered Up Technic Hub (88012). This advanced control unit features an integrated tilt sensor, as well as 4 input/output ports to program and control LEGO Powered Up sensors, motors and lights."
3. "Technic Large Hub" = 88016. "Bring your LEGO creations to live and make them move with the LEGO Powered Up Technic Large Hub 88016! Use the Hub to power motors and sensors and control your LEGO creations. Program the hub in the LEGO MINDSTORMS Robot Inventor app."
4. "Move Hub" = 88006. "Use the LEGO® Powered Up 88006 Move Hub to bring movement and life to your LEGO creations with its 2 integrated position motors and tilt sensor. Connect other Powered Up sensors and motors to the Move Hub for even more control of your LEGO inventions."

Answers were quite clear: 1) for all sensor and motors - nothing is excluded, 2) for Technic "creations" only, 3) not clear, name says Technic, but text for LEGO "creations", needs special software, no idea what MINDSTORMS is, 4) for model "inventions".

Oh well. I do understand that a "Technic hub" has technic holes and no nobs, and a Hub has nobs but no technic holes. But other than that, I find the explanations in grey (for the best) confusing. My sister was - let's say "surprised", when I told her, that a Technic Hub is controlling four of my 9V LEGO System switch points and that the Hub is built into a Technic MOC. I did not tell her about the "Technic Small Hub" - as this is in Education. This may have led to total confusion: Technic Small Hub €190; Technic Hub €80; Technic Large Hub 240€. 

Best
Thorsten

 

[Lok24]

all not that bad, here's a quick and dirty diagram

What we can see. what's missing is

- separating Powered Up App into "set control" and "programming" (which does the same as now, but no reference to any set or theme)
- make all devices work on all hubs (physically + supported by programming apps)
- distribute a SPIKE/RI programming app (which does the same as now, but no reference to any set or theme)

 

 

 

[msk6003]

I know is to late for answer but spike app is suck. In RI app, you can use any of powered up/wedo/spike sensor and motor even the train motor. Spike app can't. I know C+ motors can work with in spike app but it is not perfect like RI app.

As far as I know only thing which can use in spike app but not in RI app is new 3x3 matrix.

Even that is not only better thing. Only in RI app, you can make two hub can interact each other. Which is not possible in spike app.

So, why we need use spike app?

Edited February 22, 2022 by msk6003

[Tcm0]

I think that an important first step would be to market powered up as one system. You can leave mario and duplo out if you want, but why is there no powered up logo on boost or technic boxes? That way people would directly know that it's compatible.

In terms of what went wrong I think that there are 2 big problems.
First of all, LEGO didn't plan enough before releasing something. LEGO Education threw wedo 2.0 on the market as fast as they could without thinking about the future (and future hardware that was thus incompatible). Maybe they wanted to use the system for just one set at the beginning. But then they wanted to make a new robotics set for normal customers and made boost. I think that at this point the powered up name still didn't exist. Internally it was called LPF2.0 and that name was mentioned in a FAQ, but the system didn't really have a name at this point.
Another problem might be that they still didn't decide on the names of the products. The simple medium linear motor is called that in the store, but the box of the zetros says that it's an M-Motor (which makes sense from a PF legacy perspective).

Then there is the second problem. Everything should be a complete system and compatible but software development simply can't keep up. One example: the mindstorms sensors are still not supported in the powered up app. 2 years after spike prime was released. But they are still throwing new hardware to the market instead of fixing the compatibility first. For some insane reason there must be at least one new hub per year. Maybe all app development teams should get new hardware BEFORE everyone can buy it.
I think that this problem is getting much worse because of the amount of apps for similar things. There is Boost and Boost Star Wars and Powered Up, all use a similar programming language and Boost Star Wars is now discontinued. I think that even Control+ has a similar programming interface for the liebherr. Then there is Mindstorms and SPIKE Prime, both using the same app but now they're thinking about merging the apps. It would make sense if they didn't start with different brandings. Why did they make separate names for them anyways? Mindstorms EV3 was both retail and edcuation.

Personally I'm pretty happy with the mindstorms app. It has support for most sensors in scratch and there are debug blocks for the light matrix. Python is really accessible and you can switch between a python and a scratch project without any problems (for EV3 you often had to do reboots and change the microsd cards etc).
What I don't understand is that there is no direct support for the non-mindstorms-brand sensors in python. It shouldn't be too hard to add them.

I think that a few of the problems are actually part of the concept: app as a service. They wanted to add new stuff from time to time as updates. But they are simply taking too long for the development of new features, especially in the mobile app department. The mindstorms and spike apps are beeing updated more or less regularly (at the moment. I wouldn't be surprised if they stop doing that in a year).

[Toastie]

@Tcm0 Amen to that! All you said.

From experience in the research world, I can tell that the hardware folks are always at least 2 years ahead. New chippy here, new sensor there, throw it in and get it to market: We have the newest and best. The software folks are always lagging behind, because they have to deal with >us< (the dummies, screwing every possible software thing up) and with the firmware gurus, who want to make maximum use of the new hardware, which however changes every other month.

And then marketing comes in. And then all lights go out, and they fly the whole thing - in total darkness. Coming up with new names, more buzzwords: Bestest, ultimate, superior, never seen before, new generation, game changer, then ever ... and so on and so forth (I gave once a PowerPoint presentation at an international meeting, the first two minutes I was just - StarWars like - running down "buzzwords" used in that research sector. Was fun!)

Oh, and there is time-to-market. Or better: There is no time. There is market.

As far as I am concerned, PoweredUp demonstrates under how much stress TLG currently is. And they don't handle all that - that well.

And for sure: PoweredUp ages already! I bet they have a plan for ditching that technology and introduce a new, way more powerful, never seen before, enabling a whole new world - well, world of robots following a line, or making wild moves. Or smile. And which is of course completely incompatible with PUp, PF, RC, 9V, 12V, and 4.5V. And I believe they have already an entire department running red-hot for coming up with new names. As they have in the automotive industry.

It is what it is.

Best,
Thorsten

 

 

[Gimmick]

9 hours ago, Toastie said:

@Tcm0

And for sure: PoweredUp ages already!

 

Maybe outsourcing the PU development was a mistake. I'm still curious when the next update will be released - it was announced almost a year ago :< If it takes that long there must be more than updated graphics. [I hope :D]

[Lok24]

according to app strore

the boost app doesn't connnect

Powerd up stops with the yellow screen

I don't see the outsourcing as the problem, but as Tcm0 wrote there is no continuity and no "masterplan" for all of the different branches.

And as I showed with my little graphic:

It would be very easy to avoid that all.

 

 

[Tcm0]

4 hours ago, Lok24 said:

And as I showed with my little graphic:

It would be very easy to avoid that all.

I think that we don't see all of the problems as end consumers. If I hear something about the internal stuff, it's always that they are restructuring the internal teams. It's no surprise that they don't get anything done with that.

13 hours ago, Toastie said:

And for sure: PoweredUp ages already! I bet they have a plan for ditching that technology and introduce a new, way more powerful, never seen before, enabling a whole new world - well, world of robots following a line, or making wild moves. Or smile. And which is of course completely incompatible with PUp, PF, RC, 9V, 12V, and 4.5V. And I believe they have already an entire department running red-hot for coming up with new names. As they have in the automotive industry.

They said that they will support powered up at least until 2027 so there is still time left. Maybe they're experimenting with new stuff but I don't really see much room for improvement if they don't simplify the next system.
Tho they kind of ditched wedo 2.0 already in favor of spike essential.

[Lok24]

We still have the sheets form May 2019 where it is shown how that should work, it doesn't. Till today.

text:

Platform SW / App
Powered Up App
Ambition to support ALL hardware elements

Three years ago, and all hubs and sensors are already shown, including SPIKE.

 

[joeh]

On 2/13/2022 at 9:02 PM, Lok24 said:

 

Tips for using the LEGO Education SPIKE™ Prime app and the LEGO MINDSTORMS® Robot Inventor app

SPIKE Prime and Robot Inventor are two very different LEGO Robotics sets, but they both use the same programming language and come with the same type of robot hub. These helpful tips will come in handy if you’re putting together either one of them.

I agree with others who commented about Spike Prime and RI.  Why LEGO made them different?  The Spike Prime hub/sensors/motors are indeed the same hardware as the Robot Inventor ones.  They only purposely altered the plastic shells and the firmwares a bit to make them different, and they made the App different.  They should have made them like EV3.  Both the educational and the retail kits have all parts from the same family of EV3 components.

 

[CarloDavis]

I did not know about the existence of a corresponding application. But it also works with other apps. For me it's very convenient anyway. I always try to make the most of all features and privileges http://realspyapps.com/how-to-locate-spyware/ I recently came across an app that turned out to be a must for me. I figured out how I can find Spyware and get rid of it quickly.

Edited August 30, 2022 by CarloDavis

[msk6003]

F this. RI is MUCH better than spike. RI has both virtual and real controller support, all PU/C+ element support and hub-to-hub communication but now it has machine learning support while spike DON'T HAVE NOTHING BUT 3x3 LIGHT METRIX.

[Plumber]

I've been playing with lego all 55 years of my life and been a Technical Lego MOC'er since '77.  Lego in most of it's guises(themes) is a physical construction toy and gives millions great joy in that capacity.  I see the coding based themes (mindstorms etc) as something completely different - its more a competior of things like Raspberry Pi and Arduino.

In the very early days the basic programmable controllers were directly compatible with the motors of the day but TLG quickly scr...wed that pooch by introducing completly incompatible hardware/ motors etc at prohibitive prices, as the theme has progressed through Dacta, EV3, Mindstorms, Spike, Prime, Wedo, Boost, RI (never even heard of that one before) the price and the complete opaqueness of the whole product range to the 'normal' Lego buyer has left the product firmly in the preserve of the educational market which TLG seem to deliberately keep 'secret' IMO

Even in this arena where one might expect the proponenets of the robotic themes to congregate the number of topics on the robotic theme is negligable and when they do appear those (with a few notable exceptions) physical constructions are quite obviously bare minimum to facilitate the output of the electronics i.e. there is still minimal cross fertilisation between the two.

I'm a person who could be tempted into mixing the possibilities of the two - the simple truth is that when I sit down to play Lego I want to relax and finding any information on the robotic themes is just too much bother. TLG treat the whole thing as some big secret. Technical documentation is sketchy ,incomplete and difficult to find.  I really don't feel I should need to s[end months of my life distilling basic information from sites like this just to try and decide what works with what and how to start the basics!

The powered up line of hardware was a massive missed oppotunity by TLG. It could have been the chance to rationalise the whole sorry mess into a coherant product line  with a simple progressive architecture that all branches of the hobby could use and extend as needed/wanted.

It could have been so easily made to function in a dumb mode and had some basic accessories to make a drop in, backwards compatible replacement for Power functions, more than sufficient for most AFOLS and kids.

Paired with hub products dedicated onboard controller and/or smart devices it could then provide the extended capability that the robotic themes have always done.

But no, TLG had to split it into a myriad of different product families, each subtly incompatible with the others in  myriad undocumented ways, motors that are family specific (why not studs and pin holes together, at last count I think I found about 5 different PU medium motors though you can never be sure its not the same motor named and numbered differently) and, as ever, no documentation.

I was extremely fortunate to receive the Liebherr as a gift. TLG sets haven't cut it for me for decades so I was excited to have a great new parts pack with a raft of powered up product - product that soon had to be consigned to the back of the cupboard as there was simply no way to use it for anything other than Control+ models. I understand from this thread that there is an app now that will facilitate the creation of MOC interfaces for C+ elements.

It's not mentioned on lego.com, a search for 'powered up app' there returns this page https://www.lego.com/en-gb/product/motorised-lighthouse-21335  WTF????

Navigating to the PU theme brings up 18 products (which is a pretty incomplete list), 5 of which are just sets with PU motors and most of which is out of stock -  no links to software/app or any documentation whatsoever!!??

Lego.com>Discover>Our Apps    -  Nothing, nada, No C+, no PU, No Boost, No Wedo, no Spike,

A quick look on Play store brings up a likely candidate which would *seem* to be the relevant app but is confused in the description which seems to imply that it's a train controller and makes NO mention of any capacity to make custom interfaces v- still NO documentation or links to such, and a pile of p.ss poor reviews that tell us the software is unstable, not compatible with many devices, particularly tablets and Chromebooks where you might prefer to programme if doing anything more than very basic.

Sorry TLG this is just too hard and I can't be bothered - the C+ motors can go on Ebay and I'll buy myself some of those PF compatible nice little micromotors from Cada and  a  couple of Buwizz or S bricks!

 

[Lok24]

On 8/22/2022 at 1:06 AM, Plumber said:

I understand from this thread that there is an app now that will facilitate the creation of MOC interfaces for C+ elements.

There are no "C+ elements", there are only "Powered Up components".  "Control+" is just the name of one LEGO App.
And there are very many ways to control any model,  one of it is the LEGO power Up App. And you can control  the Liebherr with it. That's not new at all, it was there form the very beginning.

 

On 8/22/2022 at 1:06 AM, Plumber said:

A quick look on Play store brings up a likely candidate which would *seem* to be the relevant app but is confused in the description which seems to imply that it's a train controller a

 

Followed by::

Or use your imagination to create entirely new creations using LEGO Powered Up components and bring them to life through programming. Set your models in motion and let them react to real events.

On 8/22/2022 at 1:06 AM, Plumber said:

Navigating to the PU theme brings up 18 products (which is a pretty incomplete list),

Just use https://www.lego.com/de-de/search?q=powered+up , what is missing?

Note: this is the shop, of course, and not an  "invetory"  of all components, only theose which are sold seperately.

 

On 8/22/2022 at 1:06 AM, Plumber said:

I'll buy myself some of those PF compatible nice little micromotors from Cada and  a  couple of Buwizz or S bricks! 

 

The functionallity is completely different......