Newbie Powered up/boost/spike/weDo questions

[Megbricks]

Hi! Hopefully I am in the right section to post this. I am very very new to the world of motorisons lego stuff. For years I shaven been buying battery boxes, lights, remote and motors from the PowerFunction line. I never used them until now. I get how they works that’s all good

now of course there is the powered up stuff. And I am getting confused over how they work. I have a few questions. If you fell like answering them please go ahead. Please remember I am new to this I don’t need bashing. Just seeking answers for those questions I had :). 
 

1-powered up seems to have a hub with motors in it and a regular hub. Are they both connected to the app?

2-am I dreaming or have I seen a post somewhere that lego would introduce a cheaper powered up battery box (not connected to the app)

3-is boost the same thing as powered up?

4-is the Spike system the same as powered up?

 

5-what is we do?

thanks in advance if you can help me answer my questions :) if there is a link that explains all of this already on this forum or on the web, feel free to share:)

Edited August 5, 2020 by Megbricks

[lego_flyer]

Hey - so I've a bit of a newbie myself but, like you, I started looking at this stuff and also found it super confusing (I'm actually surprised Lego's marketing team chose such a disjoint approach).

So here's what (I think) I've gathered so far:

- "Powered up" is the name of the family of hardware, which includes all the hubs, motors, and sensors from this line.

- Spike, WeDo, and Boost are specific lego sets that are tied to their own respective apps. They use subsets of the Powered Up family of hardware (i.e. there is a WeDo hub that is part of the Powered Up family,and there is a Boost hub that is also part of the Powered Up family).

- There is a "Powered Up" app that can control all Powered Up hardware, including the Powered Up hardware used for Spike, WeDo, and Boost.

[Megbricks]

31 minutes ago, lego_flyer said:

Hey - so I've a bit of a newbie myself but, like you, I started looking at this stuff and also found it super confusing (I'm actually surprised Lego's marketing team chose such a disjoint approach).

So here's what (I think) I've gathered so far:

- "Powered up" is the name of the family of hardware, which includes all the hubs, motors, and sensors from this line.

- Spike, WeDo, and Boost are specific lego sets that are tied to their own respective apps. They use subsets of the Powered Up family of hardware (i.e. there is a WeDo hub that is part of the Powered Up family,and there is a Boost hub that is also part of the Powered Up family).

- There is a "Powered Up" app that can control all Powered Up hardware, including the Powered Up hardware used for Spike, WeDo, and Boost.

Wow cool! Thanks for all that info. I am a little bit of a collection freak:) I need to get myself som WeDo and spike. I already have boost. And of course all the new Powered Up stuff. I also need to get the NXT stuff and the Ev!?! Something. Which I believe is beeing discontinued. Thanks again!!!! That was really helpful!!!

[Mr Hobbles]

Let me try to help clarify some stuff.

1. The Powered Up range has a few different hub types, yes. The Boost Move Hub has two ports to plug motors and sensors into, as well as two embedded motors. The Powered Up/City Hub has two ports and no embedded motors. The Technic Control+ hub has four ports. Also, technically the remote control is a hub too - it just has no removable ports and no embedded motors. :)

2. The motors and sensors all use a connector called the LPF2.0 (or Lego Power Functions 2.0) connector. It is compatible with the hubs I listed above, as well as the WeDo 2.0 hub, and the SPIKE Prime hub.

3. There are multiple apps. Control+ is used to control Technic Control+ sets. Boost is used with the Boost set. Powered Up is used with City sets (as well as Creator Expert). WeDo 2.0 with the WeDo 2.0 set, Spike Prime with the Spike Prime set, etc.

4. The Powered Up app is kind of a "super app". As well as controlling the models it is configured for, it also has a programming mode, that is compatible with all the Powered Up hubs and nearly all LPF2.0 motors and sensors.

5. Although the WeDo 2.0 hub and SPIKE Prime app use LPF2 motors and sensors, they are *NOT* Powered Up compatible. You must use their own apps with them. Also not all LPF2 motors and sensors work with these two hubs.

In short:

Powered Up = the super app, as well as hubs - City Hub, Boost Hub, Control+ hub, remote control.
LPF2 = Motors and sensors compatible with Powered Up (as well as WeDo 2.0 and SPIKE Prime) use the LPF2 connector. This includes the Boost motor and sensor, WeDo 2.0 motor and sensor, Control+ motors and sensors, SPIKE Prime motors and sensors, etc.
SPIKE Prime and WeDo 2.0 = NOT Powered Up, but compatible with LPF2 motors and sensors.

EDIT: I see you mentioned NXT and EV3 in a subsequent post. They are not compatible at all with Powered Up, SPIKE Prime, WeDo 2.0, etc. They use a different connector and different apps. And as you say, are now discontinued. :)

Edited August 5, 2020 by Mr Hobbles

[lego_flyer]

1 hour ago, Mr Hobbles said:

In short:

Powered Up = the super app, as well as hubs - City Hub, Boost Hub, Control+ hub, remote control.
LPF2 = Motors and sensors compatible with Powered Up (as well as WeDo 2.0 and SPIKE Prime) use the LPF2 connector. This includes the Boost motor and sensor, WeDo 2.0 motor and sensor, Control+ motors and sensors, SPIKE Prime motors and sensors, etc.
SPIKE Prime and WeDo 2.0 = NOT Powered Up, but compatible with LPF2 motors and sensors.
 

Sorry, maybe I was confused on the compatability of the WeDo and Spike with the Powered Up app (i think I read something about unifying all the hardware under the Powered Up app).

[Mr Hobbles]

18 minutes ago, lego_flyer said:

Sorry, maybe I was confused on the compatability of the WeDo and Spike with the Powered Up app (i think I read something about unifying all the hardware under the Powered Up app).

That's why I called it a "super app", they want to use it to unify all the consumer facing ranges. :)

However, WeDo 2.0 is very old, and they've previously said they can't update the firmware on the hub. It speaks a very different Bluetooth "language". It's pretty much left on it's own, I wouldn't expect the WeDo 2.0 hub to ever have support inside the Powered Up app, especially as its limited to education market and consumers don't generally buy it. The WeDo 2.0 motor and sensors are supported already though, just on other hub types.

SPIKE is an interesting one. The hub uses Bluetooth Classic not Bluetooth Low Energy, so they could add support to the Powered Up app, but they haven't yet, and it would require quite a bit of additional work on their part if they ever do it. It's also limited to educational markets - but the new Mindstorms hub is identical, so we'll have to see what they do there.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Mr Hobbles

[GianCann]

5 hours ago, Mr Hobbles said:

The Technic Control+ hub has four ports.

Only a simple addition to detailed explanation made by @Mr HobblesHobbles: The Control+ Hub has also an internal gyro sensor. The Move Hub has an internal tilt sensor.

[JaBaCaDaBra]

6 hours ago, GianCann said:

The Control+ Hub

Technic hub.

[Lok24]

10 hours ago, Mr Hobbles said:

SPIKE is an interesting one. The hub uses Bluetooth Classic not Bluetooth Low Energy,

It offers both,

Wireless connectivity:
• Enables users to connect wirelessly to smart devices (phones, tablets, laptops, etc.) and LEGO® LPF2 remotes
and wireless components using Bluetooth
• Bluetooth Classic 4.2 (BTC)
• Bluetooth Low Energy 4.2 (BLE)

[GianCann]

19 minutes ago, JaBaCaDaBra said:

Technic hub.

Yes, I know.
But it's called also 'Control+ Hub'. See, for example, https://docs.pybricks.com/en/latest/

[Mr Hobbles]

5 hours ago, Lok24 said:

It offers both,

Wireless connectivity:
• Enables users to connect wirelessly to smart devices (phones, tablets, laptops, etc.) and LEGO® LPF2 remotes
and wireless components using Bluetooth
• Bluetooth Classic 4.2 (BTC)
• Bluetooth Low Energy 4.2 (BLE)

While that is true, I didn't want to confuse the matter. The BLE can't be used to connect to a smart device, only to other BLE peripheral devices, and only when coding using Python. It's not end-user friendly. It's also doesn't speak LWP3 natively, just raw BLE - if you want to talk to a PUP hub, you have to code that yourself.

Technical capabilities aside, it can't be considered part of the Powered Up family.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Mr Hobbles

[Lok24]

Thanks for that , that's really bad news.

Indeed the Large Hub is obviously no Powered up device, cause connectors and LWP3 define that.

So two more questions:
Might the "Mindstorms hub" be different? And: it should be possible to load a firmware that makes it a PU-Device?

 

 

 

[Megbricks]

19 hours ago, Mr Hobbles said:

Let me try to help clarify some stuff.

In short:

Powered Up = the super app, as well as hubs - City Hub, Boost Hub, Control+ hub, remote control.
LPF2 = Motors and sensors compatible with Powered Up (as well as WeDo 2.0 and SPIKE Prime) use the LPF2 connector. This includes the Boost motor and sensor, WeDo 2.0 motor and sensor, Control+ motors and sensors, SPIKE Prime motors and sensors, etc.
SPIKE Prime and WeDo 2.0 = NOT Powered Up, but compatible with LPF2 motors and sensors.

EDIT: I see you mentioned NXT and EV3 in a subsequent post. They are not compatible at all with Powered Up, SPIKE Prime, WeDo 2.0, etc. They use a different connector and different apps. And as you say, are now discontinued. :)

That is great help thank you!!

 

now I need to get all of these. What for? Dunno. Just because if I need it I’ll have it. 
 

thanks for all your help!!! I’ll keep reading and learning because right now phrases like this:

 It's also doesn't speak LWP3 natively, just raw BLE.

is just like saying FLeFluFli BlawBli :) 

 

[Toastie]

On 8/6/2020 at 7:53 PM, Megbricks said:

is just like saying FLeFluFli BlawBli :) 

To be honest, that FLeFluFli BlawBli ... sounds rather reasonable and sound to me, whereas the nomenclature TLG uses for their Powered Up system devices, apps, and protocols is very close to bananas - to me. I did get used to it, but in the beginning I thought: Who on Earth came up with that naming. See above for examples.

As it stands now, I have no clue how TLG wants to steer that into the clear. Which is - as far as I am concerned, a major issue for the general audience appreciation of the PUP >system<. The individual sets are fine. For one individual purpose. Batmobile with the Batapp. Crocodile with the Crocodile app. The moment you want to leave that ground, it rapidly becomes worse than FLeFluFli BlawBli.   

In my opinion, PUP is conceptionally extremely powerful - both hard and software wise. The way TLG introduces and promotes this system though is, well, funny. It was that when they were giving us the first Mindstorms sets, back in 1998. Enthusiasts had to find out all the details. Back then, it was maybe part of the learning curve and all the fun.

With PUP I am not sure anymore about this approach. TLG cranks out more and more sophisticated hardware devices (BLE servers, smart sensors and actuators, built-in and external), software clients (their apps) - which in turn are almost exclusively specific to sets. In contrast, the whole PUP concept is exactly the contrary. On the other hand, this concept is supported by the Powered Up app. Hmmm.

I believe TLG has to find a way better way to "communicate PUP" (I believe that I understand the concept of the individual sets, including Boost and Boom, for 5 year old and so forth)

But then - it is what it is. 

Best regards,
Thorsten

[Megbricks]

2 hours ago, Toastie said:

To be honest, that FLeFluFli BlawBli ... sounds rather reasonable and sound to me, whereas the nomenclature TLG uses for their Powered Up system devices, apps, and protocols is very close to bananas - to me. I did get used to it, but in the beginning I thought: Who on Earth came up with that naming. See above for examples.

As it stands now, I have no clue how TLG wants to steer that into the clear. Which is - as far as I am concerned, a major issue for the general audience appreciation of the PUP >system<. The individual sets are fine. For one individual purpose. Batmobile with the Batapp. Crocodile with the Crocodile app. The moment you want to leave that ground, it rapidly becomes worse than FLeFluFli BlawBli.   

In my opinion, PUP is conceptionally extremely powerful - both hard and software wise. The way TLG introduces and promotes this system though is, well, funny. It was that when they were giving us the first Mindstorms sets, back in 1998. Enthusiasts had to find out all the details. Back then, it was maybe part of the learning curve and all the fun.

With PUP I am not sure anymore about this approach. TLG cranks out more and more sophisticated hardware devices (BLE servers, smart sensors and actuators, built-in and external), software clients (their apps) - which in turn are almost exclusively specific to sets. In contrast, the whole PUP concept is exactly the contrary. On the other hand, this concept is supported by the Powered Up app. Hmmm.

I believe TLG has to find a way better way to "communicate PUP" (I believe that I understand the concept of the individual sets, including Boost and Boom, for 5 year old and so forth)

But then - it is what it is. 

Best regards,
Thorsten

Thanks for that. I feel less alone:)

[GianCann]

I think that the PU Ecosystem has many potential but I'm surprised about TLG don't share other info about hardware/software.

Only the (uncompleted) LWP3 documentation was released and only thanks to reverse engineering from some skilled guys has permit to hus to use deeply this new hardware (see Pybricks, for example)

[Toastie]

7 hours ago, GianCann said:

Only the (uncompleted) LWP3 documentation was released and only thanks to reverse engineering from some skilled guys has permit to hus to use deeply this new hardware (see Pybricks, for example)

Exactly that!

Best
Thorsten

[Gimmick]

On 8/11/2020 at 7:05 AM, GianCann said:

I think that the PU Ecosystem has many potential but I'm surprised about TLG don't share other info about hardware/software.

Only the (uncompleted) LWP3 documentation was released and only thanks to reverse engineering from some skilled guys has permit to hus to use deeply this new hardware (see Pybricks, for example)

I'm not sure if it's a fair expectation that they release a full documentation for implementing a different 3rd-party firmware.

I actually never took a look at the full doc on github (just read the things I was looking for), can you tell me what is missing?

[Tcm0]

On 8/12/2020 at 10:11 AM, Gimmick said:

I'm not sure if it's a fair expectation that they release a full documentation for implementing a different 3rd-party firmware.

I actually never took a look at the full doc on github (just read the things I was looking for), can you tell me what is missing?

The wireless protocol only describes how a smart device and a hub talk to each other. No information about the uart protocol (the ev3 hdK contains a bit about it), no information about how the hub or the sensors work. The ev3 had open source firmware and hardware schematics for both the ev3 brick and all the sensors

[Gimmick]

7 hours ago, Tcm0 said:

The wireless protocol only describes how a smart device and a hub talk to each other. No information about the uart protocol (the ev3 hdK contains a bit about it), no information about how the hub or the sensors work. The ev3 had open source firmware and hardware schematics for both the ev3 brick and all the sensors

Ok, thanks - that's convincing :D

[GianCann]

On 8/12/2020 at 10:11 AM, Gimmick said:

I'm not sure if it's a fair expectation that they release a full documentation for implementing a different 3rd-party firmware.

In the past, it was released for EV3.

At this time, if you look better to Pybricks and other technical info obtained from reverse engineering, there are many "unofficial" documentation on hardware/software.

The LEGO UART protocol used by Powered Up/Spike Prime and the future Mindstorms, is the same used by EV3:

https://github.com/GianCann/technical-info/blob/master/uart-protocol.md

I hope, after the release of new Mindstorms, that LEGO could be release other technical info.

In the meantime, we continue to explore the (undocumented) feature of PU/Spike device like the TTL/UART comunication implemented in the Spike Hub firmware and that in future will implemented also in Pybricks fw.

 

[Rockstaremcee]

This thread is extremely helpful.  Thank you to all involved!  Finally my trains will all live again!

[Horologist]

On 8/5/2020 at 2:47 PM, Megbricks said:

2-am I dreaming or have I seen a post somewhere that lego would introduce a cheaper powered up battery box (not connected to the app)

Aside from the 28738 Hub's ability to be controlled by the 28739 remote, there was going to be a new "dumb" hub released in the 42113 set with built-in analog switches, like the PF switches, to control motor outputs, however the set's release was cancelled and the hub hasn't been released in a different set yet. 

Edited August 26, 2020 by Horologist