FABUPUNK Mafia! Conclusion—Heresy!

[Trekkie99]

6 hours ago, Hinckley said:

Lyev Lion (Trekkie99), was it a mistake when you revealed how you knew the compulsive Framer would work if you didn't submit a target?

I still think it shouldn't have been.  

I have a very hard time finding scummy things about a person when I know they're town. I wanted to do my normal playstyle but it left me finding little to say. I can't ignore that my arguments are bs so it all sounds crappy to myself. 

[Shadows]

22 minutes ago, Kristel said:

Pembroke (Shadows) pointed to you being adamant about being the frame target, but when I went back through the posts, you had pretty much added "but it doesn't have to me" each time it came up.

No no, you're confusing me for Darkdragon. We're easy to tell apart, I didn't have balls, let alone furry ones and the only time I ever gave Omrom a bath was in a lake with a golden statue as his back scrubber. 

[Kristel]

6 hours ago, Hinckley said:

I really liked how putting an open setup in front of everyone changed the dynamics of conversation in the day thread. There was enough trickery in the first setup that Calissa Cat (Pandora) chose that it needed to be discussed and a strategy had to develop.  ...

I'm still tossing it back and forth in my head if each day setup needs to be open for this overall setup to work, but in practice I loved it. It still has the capability to be open if the Town chooses to claim what Actions they're getting. Maybe that's what needs to happen and I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on this? How do you think it would work if Omrom didn't announce the setup the Trickster was using?

I really liked how the open set up and no PM changed the dynamics.  Definitely changed it for the better.

I think it needs to be open, with Omron (it will have to be Omrom!) announcing what was handed out at the start of the day.  I think the game would shift too much in favour of the scum if town (as a collective) didn't know what was going around.  We'd end up back at everything of interest being discussed via PM.

 

6 hours ago, Hinckley said:

Lyev Lion (Trekkie99), was it a mistake when you revealed how you knew the compulsive Framer would work if you didn't submit a target? 

I know this is easier with hindsight, but I do think it was a mistake.  We've had enough examples recently to know that role PMs don't necessarily follow what the wiki says.

 

6 hours ago, Hinckley said:

Night Two also brings more trouble for the already beleaguered Scum team when Fergus Fox (Kristel) proves that she's playing one of the most aggressive games I've seen from her and barrels forward with killing Wyeth Walrus (Chromeknight) without thinking about PGOs, seemingly, at all.

It had occurred to me, but I was ok with the possibility of getting killed myself at that time because I didn't think it would matter if I did die. There was no guarantee that I was going to get any more actions in the future.  The thing I tossed up was whether I tell someone about my night actions and who I targeted before the night was over, in case I did end up dead myself.   In the end, I didn't tell anyone.

 

6 hours ago, Hinckley said:

After a bit of suspicion from people that she might be Scum taking advantage of a Scum death to pretend to be the compulsive Vig but that suspicion doesn't last. I had some hope for the game to continue and the Town to question more thing because really, maybe Keyarra Crocodile (Dragonator) was the vig and targeted a PGO! But I confirmed to Maddock Monkey (jimmynick) that he would know if his PGO had been triggered.

I found this theory really bizarre, as I'd hammered Priella and killed Wyeth.  In my eyes, I thought I was the towniest of town at that point and couldn't understand why anyone was questioning it.

 

6 hours ago, Hinckley said:

Priella Pig (Bob) had a lasting effect on the game since his defense mentioned three people, only one of which was Scum. With Wyeth Walrus (Chromeknight) and Shanley Sheepdog (Tariq J) already dead, Fergus Fox (Kristel) surmises that Priella Pig (Bob) wouldn't have risked suspecting more than one Scum team member and this actually pulls her focus off of Hayleigh Hippo (Shadows). With the Town following her and she really wanting the cat dead, everyone is voting for Calissa Cat (Pandora) to get rid of the Trickster. I feel terrible that this one unsuccessful result gave her away and I know that's my fault but I didn't get it until I saw it in practice. Even with a Scum block, blocking that particular Frame made no sense. I think Calissa Cat (Pandora) had a solid defense that she was being fucked with and being framed as the Trickster, but I don't think anybody gave this Scum team that credit (Sorry ) and Fergus Fox (Kristel) is able to keep everybody on track for a Calissa Cat (Pandora) lynch. Hayleigh Hippo (Shadows) is still getting suspicion thrown at him, but after a 12 hour break, some sort of clarity sets in for everyone and in the last six hours of the Day, it becomes clear that everyone suspects Lyev Lion (Trekkie 99) and the game is pretty much over from there.

And I was over going back and forth with Shadows over the same damn arguments.  

Then the discussion with Calissa began and before I had a chance to respond to her on a particular point, someone said that Calissa had resorted to hissing at me.  That made me realise that I was going to go down the same route with Calissa - back and forth over the same thing.

Pulling back from those two conversations gave me a chance to realise that Lyev was the one getting away with not answering anything.  I think someone else had also pointed this out at the time.

 

6 hours ago, Hinckley said:

Again, thanks to everyone for putting your time and energy into this game. Thank you for the feedback. I would love to hear more on how to improve the setup. I'd like to run this setup again and will probably start a sign-up thread next week and just jump right into it. I would like a few days to really think of how to tweak it so the Town doesn't steamroll the other factions again. I think that's only partly mechanics in this game, but I think they definitely need an update.

Again, thanks for hosting an awesome game!  Looking forward to the next one!

 

27 minutes ago, Shadows said:

No no, you're confusing me for Darkdragon. We're easy to tell apart, I didn't have balls, let alone furry ones and the only time I ever gave Omrom a bath was in a lake with a golden statue as his back scrubber. 

I did too.

I remember asking Mark if Pembroke was you, and then in the next PM saying how I thought of Pembroke as female, despite the name.

[Darkdragon]

Quote

 Hinckley said… (23 Jul 20, looking at version 1)

I may as well just start taking my notes here: Assuming the host doesn’t have a plan in place for the Town’s Night Actions if the Trickster is killed is a pretty broad assumption.

 Priella (powering... said… (23 Jul 20, looking at version 1)

It’s kind of insulting as well, to assume the host isn’t prepared for that eventuality. If you didn’t want the trickster lynched, you would’ve just made them unlynchable and unkillable.

@Bob & @Hinckley

Is this about my post on day 3? I notice you guys didn't bring it up here in the conclusion. 

Broad assumption? What else would a person have to go on? Now it's insulting to post thoughts and ideas and play the game with the information we have? 

A lot of insulting things happen in these games and I'd say ruminating about how things will go if we lynch the only way we know of to get actions is the least insulting thing that a person could post.  

Not pleased. Not pleased at all.

[Hinckley]

 

9 minutes ago, Darkdragon said:

@Bob & @Hinckley

Is this about my post on day 3? I notice you guys didn't bring it up here in the conclusion. 

Broad assumption? What else would a person have to go on? Now it's insulting to post thoughts and ideas and play the game with the information we have? 

A lot of insulting things happen in these games and I'd say ruminating about how things will go if we lynch the only way we know of to get actions is the least insulting thing that a person could post.  

Not pleased. Not pleased at all.

Not pleased like Michael Scott doing a confessional about Toby! That is the very definition of "not pleased." I did not intend to offend, however I'm very sorry I offended you. I did not find it insulting, but at the time I did find it a broad assumption. Here was the quote:

On 7/23/2020 at 2:13 PM, Pembroke Panda said:

I know I have been pushing the cat's lynch and her defense is nothing to change my mind, I do think she's the trickster.  However, while i was taking a little pandanap i was also thinking about the way things look right now. It appears that we only have roles when the trickster assigns them. If the trickster is gone, town has no more roles to try and find the last scum. We'll be stuck trying to lynch someone with no way to verify anyone and in the meantime the scum will also be killing us nightly.

@Fergus Fox What do you think? Are we dooming ourselves by taking out our only means of roles? I could be completely wrong about roles but I know i'm vanilla and I haven't seen anyone producing results other than with the trickster roles so far.

Now, for argument's sake, I would not have left the Town without roles once the Trickster was gone. If I was confident the game was going to continue past Day Four, you would've seen what would've happened, but since I knew you guys had Trekkie and he was the last Scum I didn't bother doing it, because now I can save it as a surprise for my next attempt, which I hope you will play. We can all praise Fergus/Kristel for playing with balls of steel but the whole Town deserves credit for steamrolling this game and your analysis was a huge part of that. Especially with the back & forths between you, Fergus and Hayleigh. While that could've caused a lot of confusion, the conversation actually helped quell fears that Fergus was a diabolical Scum appearing to be the Towniest of Town and logically countered all potential wild counter-theories and ultimately helped everyone focus on the overall game and come to the conclusion that Lyev/Trekkie99 was trying to avoid scrutiny. I can delve into more game mechanics there and how Scum should play an open setup, but I won't. Back to how I hurt your feelings. If you look at the conversation on the dead board around that statement I made, I was frustrated—which I know is no excuse to be hurtful. My posts around that statement are "They've figured everything out? Is my game broken? Did I fuck it up? Can I start over?" I did not think what you said was insulting to me, but in my frustration looked more at the language about the Town being defenseless more than what you were saying about not knowing for sure. I should've kept it to myself, in retrospect. Being frustrated is no excuse to go negatively assess a player's one post that is contributing to figuring out the game. It's no excuse, but I didn't realize I was being insulting at the time. I got emotional and then stupid after that. I really am sorry I did that to you. It's an important question to ask in this game and you are the only player who brought it up.

[Darkdragon]

14 minutes ago, Hinckley said:

Now, for argument's sake, I would not have left the Town without roles once the Trickster was gone. If I was confident the game was going to continue past Day Four, you would've seen what would've happened, but since I knew you guys had Trekkie and he was the last Scum I didn't bother doing it, because now I can save it as a surprise for my next attempt, which I hope you will play.

That makes perfect sense of course and viewing it as the host or as a dead player it seems perfectly clear. As a living player with no idea how/why on game mechanics, it's not really clear to us at all and that's why I had brought it up. Even in my game, players were getting pretty mad that the last day happened - they didn't know the mechanics behind why and I realized that and tried not to take it too hard when they got mad (though it did make me question things and I had to make sure I was not making  a mistake) - it all becomes clear to everyone at the end.  

So when I brought it up in the game I only had the information I had, tried not making any assumptions or getting upset at the host over something (that i couldn't fully understand yet) not being fair. For all I knew, it was part of the setup that the town find the trickster and keep him/her alive long enough to get all the actions we needed to find scum. That doesn't seem broken, just another thing to figure out.

24 minutes ago, Hinckley said:

My posts around that statement are "They've figured everything out? Is my game broken? Did I fuck it up? Can I start over?"

If this doesn't happen to the host at least once per game, is it even mafia?  

To be fair, bob said it was insulting to the host and you said it was a broad assumption, both comments together triggered me which is why I included both.

[Hinckley]

5 minutes ago, Darkdragon said:

To be fair, bob said it was insulting to the host and you said it was a broad assumption, both comments together triggered me which is why I included both.

I know you knew, just wanted to re-iterate as I let the statement sit there and didn't clarify after he posted it. Thank you, honestly, for reminding me not to be a dick to my players when I'm hosting. Or to other players when I'm playing... I've demonstrated a lot of bad habits as a host over the years and I'm constantly working to correct them, so I appreciate the feedback a lot because it helps me improve.

[Kristel]

2 hours ago, Hinckley said:

Now, for argument's sake, I would not have left the Town without roles once the Trickster was gone. 

Assuming a normal set up, I wouldn't expect town's PRs to be replenished if they lost their key roles in the first couple of days.  Town would be expected to muddle through without them.  I don't really understand why it would be different in this set up.

 

2 hours ago, Darkdragon said:

For all I knew, it was part of the setup that the town find the trickster and keep him/her alive long enough to get all the actions we needed to find scum. That doesn't seem broken, just another thing to figure out.

Exactly.  I don't think it would be broken, just more challenging / interesting.

[jimmynick]

Personally I think that in this setup, the town losing the prospect of night actions is the price to pay for lynching the trickster, which most of us were very keen to do as soon as possible. Night actions aren't the be-all and end-all, and scum with a block and a kill aren't exactly overpowered.

[Hinckley]

2 hours ago, Kristel said:

Assuming a normal set up, I wouldn't expect town's PRs to be replenished if they lost their key roles in the first couple of days.  Town would be expected to muddle through without them.  I don't really understand why it would be different in this set up.

 

Exactly.  I don't think it would be broken, just more challenging / interesting.

1 hour ago, jimmynick said:

Personally I think that in this setup, the town losing the prospect of night actions is the price to pay for lynching the trickster, which most of us were very keen to do as soon as possible. Night actions aren't the be-all and end-all, and scum with a block and a kill aren't exactly overpowered.

Interesting. I hadn't thought about it this way. My perspective was that if the Town is doing its job by removing the threat of the Trickster (who wanted you all dead in this version) then why punish them by leaving them without any tools to hunt Scum? Most of the setups the Trickster can choose from involve re-direction, land mines and false investigation results. The role is definitely there to make thing "tricky." So, punishing the Town for doing its job seems unfair.

 

[Bob]

6 hours ago, Darkdragon said:

To be fair, bob said it was insulting to the host and you said it was a broad assumption, both comments together triggered me which is why I included both.

If it makes you feel any better, I didn't read the quote, I just replied off Hinckley's post, so I had no idea what was said or who said it... 

Even in death I can't read properly. 

[Pandora]

On 7/27/2020 at 3:24 AM, Kristel said:

No, no, no!  You've gone and robbed me of thinking I'd out-smarted you!  

Was there a reason you did give it to me?

Sorry... I guess?    

As to your second question, I'm not about to reveal all of my thinking. Don't want to give anyone any ideas.  

 

On 7/27/2020 at 4:20 AM, Kristel said:

Then the discussion with Calissa began and before I had a chance to respond to her on a particular point, someone said that Calissa had resorted to hissing at me.  That made me realise that I was going to go down the same route with Calissa - back and forth over the same thing.

I couldn't see the point of arguing it at the time, but that kind of shit pisses me off. I hadn't resorted to hissing. I was making reasoned points, albeit flavoured with more than a hint of "Exasperated Townie". I can accept that someone might not buy the Townieness of it, but to say I had resorted to 'hissing' was plain bollocks.