Lord of the Rings Ongoing Discussion

[Csc167]

I know it is probably a long shot, but I feel like they know they have to include the at least one new character that hasn’t been made previously. The main evil character, even if he doesn’t fit in any of the scenes depicted, would be the best choice to me. 

[Trunkbass]

5 minutes ago, Csc167 said:

I know it is probably a long shot, but I feel like they know they have to include the at least one new character that hasn’t been made previously. The main evil character, even if he doesn’t fit in any of the scenes depicted, would be the best choice to me. 

I hear you but there seems to be no reason to include Sauron in a set where he wasn't pictured in the movie.

Are there any precedents of characters being included in a LEGO set while they had absolutely nothing to do in the movie scene the set is depicting? 

[Balrogofmorgoth]

38 minutes ago, Csc167 said:

I know it is probably a long shot, but I feel like they know they have to include the at least one new character that hasn’t been made previously. The main evil character, even if he doesn’t fit in any of the scenes depicted, would be the best choice to me. 

Best choice for a character we didn’t get before in a Rivendell set would have to be old Bilbo. I mean we got The Hobbit version, but it’s completely different. I would love an alternate scary Bilbo face too

32 minutes ago, Trunkbass said:

I hear you but there seems to be no reason to include Sauron in a set where he wasn't pictured in the movie.

Are there any precedents of characters being included in a LEGO set while they had absolutely nothing to do in the movie scene the set is depicting? 

Definitely plenty of examples. Beorn in Dol Guldur comes to mind since we’re in the topic of Middle-earth. But Sauron in Rivendell would be a weird choice, not that I wouldn’t love a Sauron figure.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Balrogofmorgoth

[The Stad]

20 hours ago, QuiggoldsPegLeg said:

Rivendell is a village in a valley with cliffs and waterfalls, and the shape of Rivendell isn’t iconic. Although in that way it works perfectly as a Master Builder Series type set, since there isn’t the expectation for it to look 1:1 to the movie, but there’s still a lot of stuff that can be included and some room for creativity to make a good looking set.

I have to disagree with this line of thought.  I think that the landscape is a major defining feature of Rivendell, especially as depicted in the Peter Jackson adaptations (for which Lego has the rights), and I think the numerous establishing shots of Weta's celebrated "bigatures" have lent the location a highly recognizable form. I think the rumored part count and price puts the potential scale of the set in the same range as Hogwarts Castle #71043, whereas a Master builder style set would have to be broken down into a series of vignettes that couldn't be displayed together in a satisfying way for non-AFOLs, and which would be entirely dissimilar to any other $400+ set that is currently in production.  I mean, this moc has more than 3x the rumored pieces, is way too big for the average display space, and still doesn't present as a very recognizable rendition to the average consumer.  At this price point, I think we need to come to grips with the idea that Lego thinks that potential buyers with fat wallets (that don't love Star Wars, 80's nostalgia, or modular town layouts) are interested in Eiffel Towers and Colosseums.

Fortunately, @soccerkid6 showed five years ago that Rivendell works great on a micro scale, taking a similar design approach as the architecture line, and since he and many other extremely talented LoTR fans are designers at Lego, I think we're still in for something special: 

Also, and I can't stress this enough, I would love to be wrong here.  I fall firmly into the "LoTR ended too soon, we need Gondorians, we need more army builders, we need SA Numenorians and Noldor, we need more large-scale location sets" camp, and I kick myself frequently for not collecting all of the sets when they came out (and for not buying way more discounted Uruk-Hai Armies), so I would be overjoyed for 20+ minifigs and lots of new parts and prints though I'm not holding out much hope.  But you know what the say, the pessimist is either always right or pleasantly surprised.

[MAB]

Yeah that's a great MOC. It could still go either way,  a microscale display of the whole location or a minifig scale building and courtyard.

[zoth33]

7 hours ago, Balrogofmorgoth said:

Best choice for a character we didn’t get before in a Rivendell set would have to be old Bilbo. I mean we got The Hobbit version, but it’s completely different. I would love an alternate scary Bilbo face too

Definitely plenty of examples. Beorn in Dol Guldur comes to mind since we’re in the topic of Middle-earth. But Sauron in Rivendell would be a weird choice, not that I wouldn’t love a Sauron figure.

I mean they had the ring there and when Gimli hits the ring you can see a flash of Sauron, I know it's the eye but it may be something they could work with.  

[mirkwoodspiders]

14 hours ago, Balrogofmorgoth said:

A CMF series for LOTR would solve a lot of our problems. Especially if it came alongside waves of sets. It’ll never ever happen though.

This would be perfect. If only some of the people on this thread worked in the LEGO planning department! Seriously, I wonder if LEGO reads threads like this and takes note of what we say. I'm not sure our comments represent the wider LEGO fan base, but man I bet nearly every person writing on and following this thread would have little to no hesitation at buying up every set LEGO released if they did do a wave of system scale LOTR sets and a LOTR CMF series.

[Brickroll]

51 minutes ago, mirkwoodspiders said:

I bet nearly every person writing on and following this thread would have little to no hesitation at buying up every set LEGO released if they did do a wave of system scale LOTR sets and a LOTR CMF series.

uhhhh....not enough money

[MAB]

5 hours ago, mirkwoodspiders said:

This would be perfect. If only some of the people on this thread worked in the LEGO planning department! Seriously, I wonder if LEGO reads threads like this and takes note of what we say. I'm not sure our comments represent the wider LEGO fan base, but man I bet nearly every person writing on and following this thread would have little to no hesitation at buying up every set LEGO released if they did do a wave of system scale LOTR sets and a LOTR CMF series.

It might not be perfect for LEGO though. Previous CMF have been attractive to both adult collectors and kids. A fairly niche market combined with named rather than generic characters would not necessarily sell well. CMF need mass market appeal because of the way they are sold. Plus it would damage sales of regular sets (if they did them). LOTR has the issue that most of the characters dress fairly consistently throughout, so making alternative outfits is not so straightforward. 

[Balrogofmorgoth]

2 hours ago, MAB said:

It might not be perfect for LEGO though. Previous CMF have been attractive to both adult collectors and kids. A fairly niche market combined with named rather than generic characters would not necessarily sell well. CMF need mass market appeal because of the way they are sold. Plus it would damage sales of regular sets (if they did them). LOTR has the issue that most of the characters dress fairly consistently throughout, so making alternative outfits is not so straightforward. 

If they made it an evergreen theme like they did for HP then yeah it wouldn’t work well for them. But if they planned on just a handful of years with a cmf or two along the way it wouldn’t matter. That’s exactly what they were doing with HP before it became evergreen. And there is actually a lot of outfit variation in the films for a lot of the characters especially the hobbits, not to mention plenty of generic characters as well as named. I’m not saying they would do it, but it could definitely be done easily. I’ve personally mapped out 12 series of CMFs for LOTR and The Hobbit each with 22 figures (obviously I know it wouldn’t actually look like that, I just went with the highest CMF count we’ve had). That’s without any sets, but if you put the right amount of the characters in sets, there are still plenty for a CMF including variants. Also I still say plenty of kids love LOTR, or at least fantasy style toys, and would buy more of these than you think

Edited December 15, 2022 by Balrogofmorgoth

[MAB]

Of course LOTR AFOL fans would want them. But the general public and especially kids wouldn't buy into a series with generic characters (and in many cases for a movie series they have not watched). LEGO knows that they need key characters in CMF, otherwise they won't sell. They also know CMFs are cheap impulse buys where kids recognize the characters.

Look at the HP sets: 3x Harry, 2x Ron, 2x Hermione, 2x Dumbledore, 2x Luna, 2x Neville and many other important characters with a few minor ones. Here, there are enough costumes and enough kids interested in playing with the sets to justify CMFs and sets. There are enough memorable locations that can be done in a reasonable way as small playsets that parents / grandparents will buy for kids. If they did one series of 16 for LOTR, I reckon we'd get the entire Fellowship in it. If they did two series, I reckon we'd get two entire Fellowships (or maybe leaving out Boromir in the second).

Some Harry Potter sets have become very boring for longer term (and especially adult) collectors, since they have yet another Harry, Ron and/or Hermione. But they still sell well, since the buying population constantly changes. Every year, there are plenty of new kids to the bookies and movies. Whereas the LOTR fanbase is very different. Sure some kids get into it, but nowhere near as many as HP.

For LOTR if they have key characters in CMF, then it will impact sales of sets. If they had a CMF series containing the Fellowship at the same time as a theme where you had to buy 4 or 5 smaller sets to get the Fellowship (like last time) or a single expensive adult set to get the Fellowship (presumably like this time), I imagine the sets would sell very badly. People would buy the CMF. If a casual fan can get Frodo, Sam and Gollum for £10-12 in CMF, would they pay £40 for Frodo, Sam and Gollum climbing the Stairs of Cirith Ungol, and the next year another similar set of Frodo, Sam and Gollum in Mount Doom, and then another set for Frodo, Sam and Gollum crossing the Dead Marshes. The same with Legolas, Gimli and Aragorn in front of a bit of rock, in open plains or between two rock walls. If a fan could get the whole Fellowship plus a few other key characters in CMF, would they buy a £500 set with the same characters plus a few extras? I think that would be a very hard sell. The locations here don't really matter, they'll either be small sets like a bit of wall that aren't great and repeat characters from the CMF (so just buy the CMF)  or they'll be well done large sets that are "too expensive" (so just buy the CMF).  In this case, it is very different to SW UCS sets. For UCS sets, the stars are really the builds of iconic spaceships and not the minifigures (even if unique to the set). While LOTR has some iconic locations, to do them well would mean going away from minifigure scale.

That is why if LEGO wants to make money out of adults that are into LOTR, I don't think they will make CMFs. Not when they can sell the same minfiigures plus bricks for higher prices. They cannot coexist. They are not really impulse buy type items that people would buy in toy stores and supermarkets (like regular ones, HP, Marvel and DC). If they were going to make them online only as a D2C CMF, they might as well make them a D2C set and sell their bricks at the same time.

 

[Balrogofmorgoth]

I still think you wildly underestimate the amount of kids that like LOTR. You keep talking about LOTR as if it’s Game of Thrones. There’s no reason for it to be afols only, that’s just silly to me. Why do you think so many afols love LOTR? Because they loved it as kids

Edited December 15, 2022 by Balrogofmorgoth

[Trunkbass]

27 minutes ago, MAB said:

For LOTR if they have key characters in CMF, then it will impact sales of sets. If they had a CMF series containing the Fellowship at the same time as a theme where you had to buy 4 or 5 smaller sets to get the Fellowship (like last time) or a single expensive adult set to get the Fellowship (presumably like this time), I imagine the sets would sell very badly. People would buy the CMF. 

I think you're also overestimating how many people actually feel the CMF bags and cherry pick what they want. Sure, we may all do it but the majority of customers just grab a few bags and hope for the best. They may come back and buy extra when they notice at home that they're still missing some characters they like, earning LEGO perhaps as much money as if they would have bought a (small) set.

[mtrsteve]

7 minutes ago, Balrogofmorgoth said:

I still think you wildly underestimate the amount of kids that like LOTR. You keep talking about LOTR as if it’s Game of Thrones 

And I still think you wildly overestimate the general public's interest in this theme. Everyone here is on board obviously. But go to a forum of soccer moms looking for Christmas presents and see if it resonates there. And LEGO is a huge company who obviously has much better data on this than you or I do.

That said, if LEGO really does go the microscale route with this D2C set, then a line or two of CMFs would be an absolutely fantastic way to augment that. They could even try and work a deal to dip into the rings of power cast in that scenario.

Edited December 15, 2022 by mtrsteve

[Balrogofmorgoth]

6 minutes ago, mtrsteve said:

And I still think you wildly overestimate the general public's interest in this theme. Everyone here is on board obviously. But go to a forum of soccer moms looking for Christmas presents and see if it resonates there. And LEGO is a huge company who obviously has much better data on this than you or I do.

That said, if LEGO really does go the microscale route with this D2C set, then a line or two of CMFs would be an absolutely fantastic way to augment that. They could even try and work a deal to dip into the rings of power cast in that scenario.

I diasgree. The average soccer mom doesn’t think about any lego theme, let alone LOTR. That doesn’t mean a child isn’t into it and wouldn’t love the chance to get them. I’ve seen a ton of kids in the lego aisle at target or Walmart just show up with a parent or grandparent to pick something out for their birthday or Christmas and a ton of them look for swords and horses and battles. Idk how many I’ve seen point out the Medieval Blacksmith set and are shot down because of the price. 

[MAB]

14 minutes ago, Trunkbass said:

I think you're also overestimating how many people actually feel the CMF bags and cherry pick what they want. Sure, we may all do it but the majority of customers just grab a few bags and hope for the best. They may come back and buy extra when they notice at home that they're still missing some characters they like, earning LEGO perhaps as much money as if they would have bought a (small) set.

For impulse buyers (kids / families in a rush shopping), yes many will just grab them. How many impulse buyers will there be though for LOTR compared to HP, Marvel, DC. Significantly less in my view. It is two completely different markets.

For collectors these days, it seems fairly common now to either buy a box, or buy a complete set from someone that bought a box. I cannot see supermarkets or general retailers taking LOTR CMFs as they would not sell well as impulse buys as they are not really for (younger) kids like other CMFs. Adult collectors would buy complete sets online (like many do already for the regular CMFs). If LEGO want to make money out of that, instead of retailers selling 3x sets of 12 in a box for £126 or whatever it is that then get split into individual sets of 12 and sold for a higher price by the buyer (again online), they might as well sell a set of 12 minifigures plus a load of their core product - bricks - in their own online store. The same 12 figures plus a load of bricks for multiple £100s.

15 minutes ago, Balrogofmorgoth said:

I diasgree. The average soccer mom doesn’t think about any lego theme, let alone LOTR.

I disagree with that. Parents do think about themes when buying a present. Many kids like themes such as City or Ninjago, and they will ask for something from City or Ninjago. Then the parent or grandparent will buy something from City or Ninjago. That is why LEGO puts theme names very clearly and prominently on the boxes.

 

[Balrogofmorgoth]

40 minutes ago, MAB said:

For impulse buyers (kids / families in a rush shopping), yes many will just grab them. How many impulse buyers will there be though for LOTR compared to HP, Marvel, DC. Significantly less in my view. It is two completely different markets.

For collectors these days, it seems fairly common now to either buy a box, or buy a complete set from someone that bought a box. I cannot see supermarkets or general retailers taking LOTR CMFs as they would not sell well as impulse buys as they are not really for (younger) kids like other CMFs. Adult collectors would buy complete sets online (like many do already for the regular CMFs). If LEGO want to make money out of that, instead of retailers selling 3x sets of 12 in a box for £126 or whatever it is that then get split into individual sets of 12 and sold for a higher price by the buyer (again online), they might as well sell a set of 12 minifigures plus a load of their core product - bricks - in their own online store. The same 12 figures plus a load of bricks for multiple £100s.

I disagree with that. Parents do think about themes when buying a present. Many kids like themes such as City or Ninjago, and they will ask for something from City or Ninjago. Then the parent or grandparent will buy something from City or Ninjago. That is why LEGO puts theme names very clearly and prominently on the boxes.

 

I understand that. But that’s not the same as parents just randomly thinking about lego themes. They only think about what their kids ask for. Their kids ask for something that they’ve seen and want. If LOTR was on the shelves, kids would be asking for it and more parents would have it in their minds

Besides, LOTR is very common household title, everybody knows what it is and a lot quote it, even if they aren’t necessarily fans.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Balrogofmorgoth

[MAB]

2 hours ago, Balrogofmorgoth said:

I understand that. But that’s not the same as parents just randomly thinking about lego themes. They only think about what their kids ask for. Their kids ask for something that they’ve seen and want. If LOTR was on the shelves, kids would be asking for it and more parents would have it in their minds

Besides, LOTR is very common household title, everybody knows what it is and a lot quote it, even if they aren’t necessarily fans.

Sure, people meme two and sometimes three common phrases from it. But I don't think I've ever heard a kid say anything about not passing or simply walking into Mordor or that something is their precious though. I cannot remember the last time I saw a kid wearing a LOTR T-shirt, or having a LOTR lunchbox or backpack,  and so on. Whereas SW, HP, Marvel, DC, etc go into a town and there will be plenty of kids with merchandise from those franchises.

I also disagree that everybody knows what it is. People think very different things about it. Many families (with kids aged say 10) will not have watched it. A lot of people find the movies as boring as hell. They know what it is, and it is not a good thing for them. And so their children are not likely to be exposed to it. If so many kids were into LOTR, there would be lots of (non-LEGO) merchandise in toy stores. It is not just LEGO that is leaving all this money on the table by not doing toys based on it. Every toy company out there is missing out. Or, they know something different to you. Search for Harry Potter figures or Harry Potter toys, and you will see loads most of which is at toy prices aimed at kids. Whereas search for Lord of the Rings toys or figures, and they will tend to be highly detailed scale collectable models for display rather than play.

If LOTR was on the shelves (next to Star Wars, Harry Potter, Marvel, DC, City, Ninjago, Friends, etc) then I reckon only a very small percentage of kids would ask for it. Under 10s, I doubt many will have actually heard of it. Over 12s, maybe some would choose it but not many (especially if there was a LEGO fantasy theme and they were not into SW, HP, etc). And that was really the issue last time and LEGO knows it. They made kid sets for LOTR based on the release of The Hobbit movies and they did not sell too well. Now as a company, LEGO openly cater for adults, they will aim it as a more mature theme (well, individual set) at adults.

 

Edited December 15, 2022 by MAB

[Balrogofmorgoth]

17 minutes ago, MAB said:

Sure, people meme two and sometimes three common phrases from it. But I don't think I've ever heard a kid say anything about not passing or simply walking into Mordor or that something is their precious though. I cannot remember the last time I saw a kid wearing a LOTR T-shirt, or having a LOTR lunchbox or backpack,  and so on. Whereas SW, HP, Marvel, DC, etc go into a town and there will be plenty of kids with merchandise from those franchises.

I also disagree that everybody knows what it is. People think very different things about it. Many families (with kids aged say 10) will not have watched it. A lot of people find the movies as boring as hell. They know what it is, and it is not a good thing for them. And so their children are not likely to be exposed to it. If so many kids were into LOTR, there would be lots of (non-LEGO) merchandise in toy stores. It is not just LEGO that is leaving all this money on the table by not doing toys based on it. Every toy company out there is missing out. Or, they know something different to you. Search for Harry Potter figures or Harry Potter toys, and you will see loads most of which is at toy prices aimed at kids. Whereas search for Lord of the Rings toys or figures, and they will tend to be highly detailed scale collectable models for display rather than play.

If LOTR was on the shelves (next to Star Wars, Harry Potter, Marvel, DC, City, Ninjago, Friends, etc) then I reckon only a very small percentage of kids would ask for it. Under 10s, I doubt many will have actually heard of it. Over 12s, maybe some would choose it but not many (especially if there was a LEGO fantasy theme and they were not into SW, HP, etc). And that was really the issue last time and LEGO knows it. They made kid sets for LOTR based on the release of The Hobbit movies and they did not sell too well. Now as a company, LEGO openly cater for adults, they will aim it as a more mature theme (well, individual set) at adults.

 

These are A LOT of assumptions. When there were plenty of LOTR toys on the market, almost every kid I knew was getting them, myself included. There’s no reason to think kids wouldn’t still like LOTR toys just because there aren’t currently any on the market 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Balrogofmorgoth

[mtrsteve]

Returning to the speculative discussion, if we do in fact end up getting microscale, I could see them doing something like a golden version of the fellowship to go with it (or maybe drum lacquered silver to represent mithril?), along the lines of this MOC:

1,024 × 683

I actually wouldn't be terribly disappointed in this, even though microscale would not be my first choice.

[Balrogofmorgoth]

34 minutes ago, mtrsteve said:

Returning to the speculative discussion, if we do in fact end up getting microscale, I could see them doing something like a golden version of the fellowship to go with it (or maybe drum lacquered silver to represent mithril?), along the lines of this MOC:

1,024 × 683

I actually wouldn't be terribly disappointed in this, even though microscale would not be my first choice.

I would be very happy with that if we had other sets too. But I would definitely be disappointed if the only other LOTR figs we get are golden figs. They’re really cool to collect as “special edition” figures, but if they’re the only figures we get, it would certainly be a bummer. I would understand more if it was a Return if the King set using that to celebrate the film anniversary. Which is another strange thing, I wonder why they’re releasing a $500 Fellowship of the Ring set on the year of Return of the King’s 20th anniversary…

[MAB]

21 minutes ago, Balrogofmorgoth said:

Which is another strange thing, I wonder why they’re releasing a $500 Fellowship of the Ring set on the year of Return of the King’s 20th anniversary…

Presumably because the anniversary is not important to sales. If there is a business case to be made for making a LOTR set based on FOTR now, then they will make one now. There is no point waiting a further few years just so they can call it a 25th Anniversary set.

 

[MAB]

1 hour ago, mtrsteve said:

Returning to the speculative discussion, if we do in fact end up getting microscale, I could see them doing something like a golden version of the fellowship to go with it (or maybe drum lacquered silver to represent mithril?), along the lines of this MOC:

1,024 × 683

I actually wouldn't be terribly disappointed in this, even though microscale would not be my first choice.

Something like that (but bigger, due to the price) would be fine. I'd expect many more greebly parts for the fancy ornate architecture though. If the set was a one-off and so no other new minifigures were to be added, then those gold ones would also be fine to accompany this as a display piece, or regular coloured ones, not a big deal really. It does need something extra to make it obviously LOTR though. Without the minifigures or more ornate architecture it is just too plain. It could almost be any village on a hillside. That is the issue with Rivendell compared to The Two Towers, or Hobbiton, or the Argonaths or Minas Tirith. Those are all fairly unique. The scenes in Rivendell tended to be up close and that is why I think we will probably get a minifigure scale big single building plus some surrounding area rather than the whole location at this scale. 

[Gorilla94]

I can't imagine the Set being microscale with golden/silver figures, unless the decision makers are in fact saboteuers trying to damage the project.

There is exactly one reason to choose Rivendell over more popular/iconic locations, which would also be much easier to represent in micro scale: there is the whole fellowship. Making them golden/silber is basically no fellowship.

[mtrsteve]

14 minutes ago, Gorilla94 said:

I can't imagine the Set being microscale with golden/silver figures, unless the decision makers are in fact saboteuers trying to damage the project.

There is exactly one reason to choose Rivendell over more popular/iconic locations, which would also be much easier to represent in micro scale: there is the whole fellowship. Making them golden/silber is basically no fellowship.

It depends what the 'project' is. If it's a full on revival, I hear you. If it's a one-off nod to the adult collectors, I could see (and be reasonably happy with) this sort of outcome. But I also agree with you and MAB, that Rivendell is not the best choice for microscale, just rolling with the latest rumors re: piece count. (And yes obviously at 6000+ pieces it would be bigger and more detailed).