Future Castle Sets?

[Bricked1980]

20 minutes ago, Digger of Bricks said:

Now if we saw a castle done for either Creator or Creator Expert, I doubt panels or specialized parts would be utilized, which in my opinion is a good thing. Personally, I'd like to see a series of Creator three-in-one sets that are modular in their compatibility, where multiple sets can be bought to create a castle of whatever size desired.

This is a good idea. I'm not really a fan of the new "modular" style houses that seem to have become the new default for Creator 3 in 1 buildings, but I do think this format would work pretty well for a Castle.

Last summer there were 3 Creator summer houses released which could all be combined in to one large house if you bought all 3 sets. This approach would lend itself well to a castle building.

[x105Black]

39 minutes ago, Digger of Bricks said:

That's how I'm interpreting his implication, but no, I don't know anything myself.

Now if we saw a castle done for either Creator or Creator Expert, I doubt panels or specialized parts would be utilized, which in my opinion is a good thing. Personally, I'd like to see a series of Creator three-in-one sets that are modular in their compatibility, where multiple sets can be bought to create a castle of whatever size desired.

As long as we get actual leaf pieces and animal molds I'm all for it.  I don't like how Creator is so focused on everything being brick-built.  This is another reason that the Expert line is very fitting for Castle.

[Digger of Bricks]

11 minutes ago, Bricked1980 said:

This is a good idea. I'm not really a fan of the new "modular" style houses that seem to have become the new default for Creator 3 in 1 buildings, but I do think this format would work pretty well for a Castle.

Plus, newly printed figures wouldn't be off limits for the theme, as at least one of this year's Creator sets feature a minifigure with a brand new torso print. Traditionally, the Creator theme typically outfits its sets with whatever stock minifigure parts are on hand from other themes, usually City for the most part.

[gedren_y]

On the issue of panels, there have been a couple of recent panel designs that could increase build possibilities. The new corner door frame is one I'd like to see implemented. The corrugated 6x1x5 panel could also be quite useful. I've been messing about with the most recent LDD patch, and may share some concepts I've been working on.

[x105Black]

I'm not entirely against panels, I have many and use them. That said, the 2013 Castle is mostly panels, while there are beautiful modular sets made largely from bricks. Castle needs that attention to detail and interesting part usage.

[SirBlake]

I don't mind at all if panels are part of the equation. Just fun builds with good minifig/heraldry prints and I'm good.

That said, panel-free builds like the Kingdom's Joust are delightful. If you guys have that set, you know what I mean. I recently built the back half (with some mods) to make it complete for both sides and it was really fun. 

So maybe it breaks down like this:

GOOD: A few modular style with great (fewer/no panels) build techniques.

BETTER: Standard castle theme, full of panels but has good figs/heraldry

BEST: Regular theme like Kingdoms with 1 or two special sets that include more detailed build techniques

[x105Black]

I could get behind that.

[Bricked1980]

On 2/4/2018 at 11:47 AM, Giantorange said:

I would think this would work really well with some of the Welsh castles like Conwy or Canaervon.  Tower of London or Bodiam would also work, and are instantly recognisable. 

I have just found this interesting website.

http://www.carneycastle.com/index.htm

The guy has spent years building accurate scale models of Castles from Great Britain and Europe. I am not suggesting for one minute that TLG would ever produce commercial sets anything like this. It's a very interesting site to check out though and there are some great models to look at, I especially like his model of Caernarfon Castle. 

[x105Black]

Going back to what @SirBlake was saying, minifigures are one of the most important aspects of a Castle theme.  Sure, it's great to get sets that look good, and it's definitely great to get some useful pieces.  But ultimately, we will be building things on our own out of these bricks.  We can not build our own authentic LEGO minifigures.  And with the CMF line offering Castle fans less and less every year, it only highlights how badly we need more minifigures.

The CMF line has, however, introduced many great characters and parts.  I'd love to see them expand on those factions and create great sets using many of the new accessories and pieces introduced over the last few years (and beyond, as there were great parts introduced before Nexo Knights that have yet to turn up in a Castle theme).

[Digger of Bricks]

23 hours ago, x105Black said:

As long as we get actual leaf pieces and animal molds I'm all for it.  I don't like how Creator is so focused on everything being brick-built.  This is another reason that the Expert line is very fitting for Castle.

Like with minifigures, that precedent could change. I'd imagine that the theme's first steps would be for smaller, single stud animal molds (chickens, rabbits, mice, etc.), before they get around to larger ones. If we ever did see a castle themed set for the theme before that happens, they might possibly throw in a few brick built horses, which could be seen as a nod of sorts to the Yellow Castle.

[x105Black]

Well that brings us back to what I was saying with minifigures.  Castle sets are also a great source of animals, especially horses.  That's another reason we could really use a Castle theme.  Now I know you can order brown horses through Bricks & Pieces, but there isn't much diversity among equines.  We could use a bigger variety of the newer style of horse.

[3797]

On 1.2.2018 at 10:54 PM, Aanchir said:

It's super confusing to read things about "classic castle" here because compared to Classic Space (which is usually used to refer to a specific aesthetic and design philosophy), I'm never sure when people say "classic castle" whether they mean something with specific throwbacks to the original LEGO Castle set designs, or just castle in the generic sense which encompasses such wide-ranging aesthetics as Dragon Masters, Royal Knights, Fantasy Era, Kingdoms, Forestmen, etc.

To me classic castle is the stuff from the 80s. Sets like the Black Falcon's Fortress, the Guarded Inn or the Forestmen's Hideout. I really didn't like any of the stuff from the mid 90s and onward.

[Faefrost]

On 2/2/2018 at 10:14 AM, Bricked1980 said:

So what do people think is the most likely to happen in 2019 - Either the return of a traditional style Castle theme or a revival of Lego Pirates?

I can't imagine they would relaunch both at the same time so my money is on Lego Pirates for next year. It will be the 30th anniversary plus we haven't had anything Pirate related since 2015 except for the Creator Pirate roller coaster coming out next summer. Come to think of it maybe the roller coaster is a teaser for new Pirate sets coming soon.

I also feel that TLG would probably want to leave a bit of a gap after Nexo Knights before they release anything else Castle related.

Neither. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but both the 2013 Castle Line and the 2014 Pirates line did pretty poorly relative to the real estate they took up. We here savaged them because they were largely retreads of older themes and sets, whereas the kids just didn’t flock to them the way they do the Licensed stuff. (Ninjago is a Licensed line. Just one that Lego wholly owns. But it behaves as Licensed lines do.) The only way Castle returns as a theme is as they tried with Nexo Knights, as a fully marketable and cross platform story based media theme. Named color coded characters. Whacky villains and adventures. Unusual creatures and unrealistic contraptions. In short Fantasy Era but with equivalents to the Ninjago Ninja. And we just came off that exact thing with Nexo Knights. Let’s be honest herethose declaring “well Nexo Knights Failed! So they must go back to basics and do a more traditional Castle Line!” Are in all likelihood eating paint. TLG is not going to go, “Well Nexo Knights didn’t quite meet expectations so we ended it a wave early. So let’s retry the thing that really hit rock bottom 5 years ago!” Castle in it’s classic form is likely done as a regular Theme. We will still get some nice Castles and cool ideas, but they will be through some sort of Hybrid Story based theme. Remember Lord Vampyr’s Castle? That! 

The only way we will see our classic type Castle stuff in the near to mid future will probably be as a single D2C set. If that sells well then maybe a second, etc. (I honestly don’t know why they haven’t done this for Pirates, one ship a year seems a no brainer.) Of course what works against that is historical sales data. For all our praise Neither Medievel Market Village nor Kingdoms Joust flew off the shelves as D2C. 

It’s harsh. But it’s not just whether folks will buy Castle, but whether they will buy more Castle than whatever the other option for that shelf space is? Lego’s two finite components are factory time and square footage of retail shelf space. They have to maximize return on those. 

[Digger of Bricks]

Does anyone here think that we might see sets for Disney's 2019 live action remake of Aladdin? In a way, a line of sets based upon the film could be considered as a spiritual successor to Lego's 2009 Prince of Persia theme. 

Edited February 6, 2018 by Digger of Bricks

[Aanchir]

1 hour ago, Faefrost said:

(Ninjago is a Licensed line. Just one that Lego wholly owns. But it behaves as Licensed lines do.)

This is still complete and utter nonsense. Calling Ninjago licensed is like calling Fabuland licensed. Like Bionicle or Fabuland, the Ninjago story and characters are primarily created according to the needs of the sets, not the other way around. Sometimes new sets and figures are inspired by the theme's history, which includes past story elements, but these are usually just continuity nods like the many that appeared in Space Police III, not cases of the designers giving up creative control to the media development teams.

Also, most Castle and Pirates sets have not been aimed at the same age range as Ninjago and Nexo Knights sets, but rather the target age range for LEGO City, which has managed to remain one of the most reliably successful themes for over a decade despite having scarcely any named or defined characters. So even if the 2013 and 2015 incarnations of those themes were not successful, I don't think that somehow proves kids won't enjoy a theme without a character-driven story.

20 minutes ago, Digger of Bricks said:

Does anyone here think that we might see sets for Disney's 2019 live action remake of Aladdin? In a way, a line of sets based upon the film could be considered as a spiritual successor to Lego's 2009 Prince of Persia theme. 

I figure we'd be most likely to see a few BrickHeadz and Disney Princess sets inspired by the original animated movies (like we saw alongside the live-action Beauty and the Beast), but not necessarily anything more than that. Disney's live-action remakes are usually not as toyetic as the original animated versions.

Edited February 7, 2018 by Aanchir

[Digger of Bricks]

10 minutes ago, Aanchir said:

I figure we'd be most likely to see a few BrickHeadz and Disney Princess sets inspired by the original animated movies (like we saw alongside the live-action Beauty and the Beast), but not necessarily anything more than that. Disney's live-action remakes are usually not as toyetic as the original animated versions.

Yes, I guess that is true regarding remakes. I do wish there were more Disney/Jerry Bruckheimer productions in the pipeline beside more POTC movies, as their last two unsuccessful attempts to recreate the success of that franchise did give us some great Lego sets.

But, despite that, I'm crossing my figures for Lego sets based upon Disney's planned Captain Nemo origin story to be directed by Logan director James Mangold. Though it hasn't been announced as canceled, we haven't heard anything about it since its announcement back in early 2016.

[gedren_y]

The point @Faefrost makes is why I think my Fables idea could work. Classic mythology stories wouldn't incur licensing costs, but could be treated similarly to Ninjago in that media and secondary materials could be produced to drive expanded interest in the theme. Existing public domain stories can also reduce some of the overhead in media development.

I do not think, however, that you need to reproduce the color-coded team formula to be successful. Just produce enough of a story to maintain a certain level of interest. The concept I have is that the sets would be specific scenes from the overall mythology of a given region and era. Extraneous media to tell the stories more completely would add to the appeal of the sets themselves.

To avoid the stagnation of the theme, Fables would move from one set of mythos to another over time. This would keep set types from being too formulaic, which seems to be a common complaint from existing FOLs. Most of the sets would be action vignettes rather than structures, which parallels the kinds of sets produced for a licensed theme. (This is why some think of Ninjago as a licensed theme.)

This kind of theme, however, might need the 'Big Bang' treatment to get started. From all appearances the next Castle theme does not seem to be getting that level of commitment from LEGO.

If it was going to get that kind of treatment we would have gotten some rumors by now. If we are to get a more historical/fantasy Castle theme in 2019, preproduction and design planning is likely already underway. When a theme gets attendant media production, that is where early concept leaks tend to come from. I remember early rumors about Elves surfaced because of a connection with animation, which began some speculation of it being a licensed theme. I expect the earliest leaks to show up in late fall.

[x105Black]

1 hour ago, Digger of Bricks said:

Does anyone here think that we might see sets for Disney's 2019 live action remake of Aladdin? In a way, a line of sets based upon the film could be considered as a spiritual successor to Lego's 2009 Prince of Persia theme. 

That would be more appropriate in Licensed than here, but the possibility of it happening would be exciting.

44 minutes ago, Aanchir said:

This is still complete and utter nonsense. Calling Ninjago licensed is like calling Fabuland licensed. Like Bionicle or Fabuland, the Ninjago story and characters are primarily created according to the needs of the sets, not the other way around. Sometimes new sets and figures are inspired by the theme's history, which includes past story elements, but these are usually just continuity nods like the many that appeared in Space Police III, not cases of the designers giving up creative control to the media development teams.

Bricks & Pieces was treating the LEGO Ninjago Movie as a licensed theme.  At least they were last year.

46 minutes ago, Aanchir said:

Also, most Castle and Pirates sets have not been aimed at the same age range as Ninjago and Nexo Knights sets, but rather the target age range for LEGO City, which has managed to remain one of the most reliably successful themes for over a decade despite having scarcely any named or defined characters. So even if the 2013 and 2015 incarnations of those themes were not successful, I don't think that somehow proves kids won't enjoy a theme without a character-driven story.

It's really a shame that they continue to focus Castle and Pirates at that age group.  One or two sets each wave could appeal to that demographic, but the theme overall should really aim higher, regardless of the inclusion of story elements.

[Digger of Bricks]

1 hour ago, x105Black said:

That would be more appropriate in Licensed than here, but the possibility of it happening would be exciting

Well it certainly would be of interest to historical fans, much like the Prince of Persia theme had done. Besides, much like the argument I made earlier on this topic for How to Train Your Dragon, would Lego ever have otherwise done an in-house Arabian set theme in this day and age? Beyond the CMF line, Prince of Persia is the best we've seen so far for such a subject, save for some of those 2003 Orient Expedition sets. *

* Also, that theme did give us camels and ostriches. 

Edited February 7, 2018 by Digger of Bricks

[BrickJagger]

I'm really getting sick of the "doom and gloom" from Castle fans in recent weeks. The notion that "Castle is discontinued forever" is ridiculous and only serves to further the negative attitudes in this thread. Lego is not about to kill off one of their core themes for good because it isn't the most popular fad out there. Not every kid is into Star Wars™ and Super Heroes. 

If I have to, I'll dredge up some old Classic-Castle threads from 2003 when everyone was convinced that "Castle is discontinued forever" and had been transformed into a Bionicle theme. Some of you are typing up their 15-year-old posts verbatim. You want to know why they were convinced that Bionicle had replaced Castle? Because Bionicle was insanely popular and KK2 was the 2003 equivalent of Nexo Knights.

Here are some direct quotes from those members when KK2 was announced:

"Oh no! I hope this is not true. It's absolutely terrible. They are going to kill Castle Line... 
Please nooooooooooooooo! 
Not like bionicle. Please No! "

"Well if these rumored sets do become Bionicle like in reality, I for one will jump ship from Lego until such time they come out with "real castle" sets. I will not purchase any Lego sets at all. I will begin another dark ages in protest. Perhaps if the Megablocks sales figures get even better, Lego will wise up to the fact they are losing their audience. I'd rather see no new castle stuff than to see it become Bionicle."

"Castledore sets really suck. I am very displeased that 
Lego would try to market these rejects. Bionicle is 
one thing...these aren't even worthy to be called that! I guess those guys are laughing all the way to the 
bank. Shows you what the company's real desires are at. "

"I, for one, dislike the pre-packaged story. With Classic LEGO Castle, you could name your knights, you could have them do whatever you wanted, you could decide even who was the good army, and who was the bad, and which of these was the protagonist, and which was the antagonist. Now, with these new knight-ish sets they're just telling you what to do. I am one of the few LEGO enthusiasts who prefers the old, imaginative way. I think LEGO is spending too much time on their story and not letting us "write"(actually, sometimes I do write stories based on my LEGO play, and they're not half bad, either) our own. Also, LEGO is giving too much energy to action figures, and not enough to real castle!"

"How about organizing a global protest of LEGO products this weekend. I beg you, let us all go to our local stores, and purchase a set or two of those hated MEGA blocks. Let us tell LEGO of this. Who is with me? I'd take Vorgan's over Castlonical anyday of the week. Good Knights, Nobles, and Peasants, let us support the enemy this weekend."

Those are real quotes from real people. Check the modern day parallels:

- Bionicle is Ninjago

- KK2 is Nexo Knights

- Instead of "ConstrAction Figures" we got squirebots and robo-horses

- People hated/hate the pre-arranged storylines, named characters, and "garish" armor colors

- People insisted that both themes were not Castle. There's a poll on this very site from 2005 in which a plurality of members said that KK2 was not a Castle theme.

And still, here we are, fifteen years later. Since that world-ending announcement, we have received two decent years of KK2, a fully-fledged Viking theme that no one saw coming, three full years of Fantasy Era, three years of Kingdoms and Castle 2013. It's currently 2018 and you guys are still repeating the same nonsense that should have been disproven long, long ago. Castle is not being discontinued forever. Chill.

 

 

 

[SirBlake]

Great rant, Jagger. Solid points. 

[x105Black]

6 hours ago, BrickJagger said:

KK2 is Nexo Knights

"garish" armor colors

People insisted that both themes were not Castle. There's a poll on this very site from 2005 in which a plurality of members said that KK2 was not a Castle theme.

So true.  But you're right, and I agree that this should not be the end of Castle forever.  I strongly feel that they will release a new Castle theme that will (at least attempt to) appeal to us.  If not next year, then soon after.

[Bricked1980]

There are some solid points in the comment made by @Faefrost however I am convinced we WILL see a new Castle theme, and Pirates for that matter at some point down the line. There haven't been many occasions in the last 40 years where we've been without a Castle inspired Lego theme. I still consider Nexo Knights to be a sort of futuristic re-boot of Lego Castle and even though the similarities to the old style are very loose. It was still essentially a Lego Castle theme, just with the fantasy factor gone in to overdrive.

Nexo Knights may not of been the big success Lego were hoping for but I doubt they would permanently abandon the subject of Knights and Castles just because they think children are not interested anymore. Children always have and always will love playing with Castles.

I think they will go away, re-group and come up with a new idea and new take on the Castle theme. Hopefully this will be soon but I think it could be a couple of years as they will want the dust to settle from Nexo Knights first. I doubt they'll take another futuristic approach as this would just look like a Nexo re-hash. I personally hope that whatever they come up with next will bare more resemblance to a traditional style Castle theme, but who knows.

Either way I think we should simply look on Lego Castle as currently being on hiatus. I'm sure it will return one day in some form.

Edited February 7, 2018 by Bricked1980
spelling

[Aanchir]

Great points @BrickJagger. To be honest, the parallels to Knights' Kingdom II run even deeper than I'd considered. Thinking about it now, both KK2 and Nexo Knights were launched a few years after short-lived Castle themes that were generally considered underwhelming by the AFOL community. One wonders if AFOLs would have assumed so quickly that LEGO had given up on traditional Castle in either case if it weren't for that context.

[Faefrost]

12 hours ago, Aanchir said:

This is still complete and utter nonsense. Calling Ninjago licensed is like calling Fabuland licensed. Like Bionicle or Fabuland, the Ninjago story and characters are primarily created according to the needs of the sets, not the other way around. Sometimes new sets and figures are inspired by the theme's history, which includes past story elements, but these are usually just continuity nods like the many that appeared in Space Police III, not cases of the designers giving up creative control to the media development teams.

Also, most Castle and Pirates sets have not been aimed at the same age range as Ninjago and Nexo Knights sets, but rather the target age range for LEGO City, which has managed to remain one of the most reliably successful themes for over a decade despite having scarcely any named or defined characters. So even if the 2013 and 2015 incarnations of those themes were not successful, I don't think that somehow proves kids won't enjoy a theme without a character-driven story.

I figure we'd be most likely to see a few BrickHeadz and Disney Princess sets inspired by the original animated movies (like we saw alongside the live-action Beauty and the Beast), but not necessarily anything more than that. Disney's live-action remakes are usually not as toyetic as the original animated versions.

Ninjago behaves more like an external IP License. It has an extensive media tie in. The purchasers are purchasing for the known named characters, not simply for the set.  It's Like Batman or Star Wars just without having to pay somebody else for the IP. It's best described as an Internal License. The only other property Lego really achieved that with is Bionacle back in the day. Fabuland in some ways, but kids really weren't chasing character or story. It never really entered the pop culture zeitgeist needed to fuel such. And once they cross that pop culture threshold where the kids are chasing the IP it does orders of magnitude more sales. Which is why they try and recapture that success with Chima and Nexo Knights. One good test is whether a major third party would pay Lego for the use of the license. Bionacle and Ninjago crossed the threshold and function not unlike any other IP suppoprt TV shows, comics, t shirts etc fairly independent of the toy line itself. Yes other properties stem from the toy designs, but the same may be said of Transformers. (or Star Wars if you want to be cynical... of course look what we get when they don't think about toys when making the movies...).