Pandora

Vote: Pudding-Head (Hinckley) So your argument is that I'm a serial killer and because I was still alive, even with both now-confirmed scum and town around at the time, Hosty felt it was necessary to warn you of my presence, even though you and Canute had publicly floated ideas of me being a serial killer anyway (for still no good reason)? What's the point in that? Hosty thinks "Oh dear, there's a serial killer who's still alive, I should warn everyone!" Really?? Do you really think Hosty would do that? I don't know why Hosty felt the need to clarify, but your argument just doesn't make any sense. We can argue about this until your teeth fall out, but it doesn't actually matter. I stayed home and you killed Cranebeinn. Even you say it doesn't make any sense for Cranebeinn to block you, and the most likely thing he actually did do was block me, except I can't say for certain because I stayed home. Maybe, maybe, maybe. I stayed home both those nights just like I did last night. Just like a vig does. Because I am the vig. I would still be arguing that you are scum, because we're still here and one of you must be scum. My money's on it being you. Yes, I 'postulated' that because I knew I'd killed Lambi and that I was (and am) the vig, and Patrekr seemed like an unusual scum-kill to me. So I thought the missing kill was the scum kill. Turns out the missing kills have been serial killer kills because there isn't one. It was carefully worded on both sides, and you know I never trust you; you even made a joke about that on day one in the thread. And like I say, that's a weak argument considering you never said "I am the town tracker". Well that's good, because that seems to be the main reason anyone thinks I'm a serial killer. The funny thing is, though, that I was trying to figure out who the scum are to kill them because I'm the vig. How's your kill been working out for you? You've only managed it twice. Did you need me around to shapeshift my kill? You made a big song and dance about how I couldn't hide my kill because it's the axe kill, until I pointed out that all the kills were axe kills and therefore I could've easily claimed the scum killed Danr. So you needed me around for your kills, continuing with the "oooh, but he might be a serial killer" until you have no further need for me, which is why you're trying to lynch me now. And if you'd said you tracked me then wouldn't Agnar be wondering why I wasn't blocked? Or what happened to Cranebeinn's block? Uh huh, because I had no good reason to kill him, so I didn't. And your killing action just isn't known. How would anyone find out? By tracking you? Nah, you've rolecopped her (or possibly shapeshifted her) and you only have to do that once to confidently say "Agnar does nothing". And then Agnar feels all warm and fuzzy because she thinks you 'think' she's town. And if your team has a tracking role (yes Pudding, it is more of a scum role, isn't it?) that can fill in the gaps. Maybe I should have just killed you instead of staying home, but chances are I was blocked anyway. You may not think it's believable, but it's the truth. Except you're not town, and how do you expect Agnar to know full well that you're town? Or are you accusing her of being scum now? You think a confession consists of me screaming over and over "I am the vig"? I know Agnar likes to weigh up the pros and cons of her actions. I'm pointing out over and over all the reasons why I'm the vig, but I'm trying to make it very clear to her that the point is not whether or not she thinks I'm a serial killer, the point is whether she's absolutely, positively, definitely, certain that you aren't scum. Because the entire game depends upon that. Unfortunately, the only way Agnar could be so certain would be if she were scum herself.

You're barely making sense. How did Cranebeinn 'block' you considering he's dead? You know full well that he could not have blocked you on account of being dead.

After you lie about being blocked by a dead man it's the only conclusion I can draw. And after you lie about being blocked by a dead man I know my suspicion is on the right person. "I'm such a nice person really, Agnar. Please don't vote for me." Read again Pudding. I said I could understand your concern and I said I thought it was due to something that changed during the game, most probably a conversion. And clearly I do understand the concern as to why the rules had to be clarified, it's just quite obviously not because you think I'm a serial killer. It's because something happened, and if I were a serial killer I would have been from the start of the game. Y'know, when neutrals are first mentioned. Even though I'm not neutral, I'm town. They'll forgive you when you convince Agnar to lynch me and you and the rest of the scum win. Want to explain how a dead man 'blocked' you?

I trust Kára more than I trust you; you're talking out of your poo-pipe. If I were a serial killer (and I'll say yet again that I'm not) then there would be no need for there to be any 'clarification' to the rules. Nothing would have changed since the beginning and no clarification would be necessary. So why was it necessary on day seven? Why not have clear rules from the start? Because I'm not a damn serial killer. The presence or not of third parties was mentioned in the rules on day one. Standard rules, and including neutral in the rules is standard even if there aren't any, so what changed on night six? Why did it suddenly become necessary to change the rules? If there had been a serial killer, that would have been the case since day one, and your flaccid 'reasons' for painting me as a serial killer stem from before night six. Your persistence to paint me as such is just plain desperate. I have explained my reasoning for killing Danr over and over and over. I did not know he was the investigator and I wouldn't have damn well killed him if I had. There was no way I could know he was the investigator, and I genuinely thought he was scum. My posts in the day thread at the time show that. Canute you rightly say is your doing, and I did not kill Cranebeinn. I stayed home last night, and I expected Cranebeinn to block me anyway. You have to paint it so that it's 'obvious' that I killed Cranebeinn, so you say he blocked you (so you couldn't possibly be the killer) but how did Cranebeinn block you if he was dead? You have lied. You killed Cranebeinn and you are scum. He could have been the town tracker. Scum would know, having a role cop or a shapeshifter. A serial killer wouldn't. That is bollocks. The second message I sent you I said I thought the vig killed Lambi (in reply to your questions about what I thought had happened) and you didn't 'force' me to any more than I ever forced you to claim town tracker - in fact you just said you were 'the tracker' (after you'd said you always thought of tracker as more of a scum role, something you also apparently said to Canute). You never said "I am the town tracker", but I did say "I am the vig", so if that's your argument, it's weak. Or more simply, you had managed to convince me you were town. Uh huh, I did learn them, eventually, although I never once asked who anyone was. The only Power Role I killed was one I didn't know about, so my 'infiltration' was a huge success. Does it bollocks. Finally, a good point. That's exactly why I didn't kill last night, you did. My best bet to survive a lynch would have been to stay home, which I did. And you haven't shown me the most trust at all. That's absolute crap. You came up with a theory yesterday that fitted; that Canute was scum, and I thought he was the one who'd been vacillating over me being the vig or a serial killer, but he said you were the one who'd been saying that all game. I disbelieved him because I thought he was scum, but knowing now he's actually Loyal, he had no reason to lie. Or rather, you are afraid she's the bomb, which is why you didn't kill her. I think there's a real possibility she's the bomb. You would know for certain, because you're scum. I didn't kill Cranebeinn, and it was Danr who turned over Dar not you. If you hadn't mentioned Danr's positive investigation result it would have been too obvious you were scum. And Petr and Toki (who I was trying very hard as vig to get rid of until you or Canute - never did get to the bottom of that, except Cranebeinn said you mentioned it first - had me blocked) were expendable late buses to solidify you as town as I said yesterday. It doesn't matter to them if they're dead as long as you go on to win it for the team. Nope, seven scum and a vig. Six scum would be reasonable, without conversions, but converting is the most likely thing you have been doing instead of killing. Agnar, Pudding wants you to feel good that he believes you're town so that you'll vote with him. I have a feeling a lot of people already do, after you got them lynched or killed by me. When will Pernilla be oinking? It is abundantly clear the only reason for 'clarifying rules' midway through a game is because something has changed - and what changed was that you achieved a conversion. You could have killed me last night, but maybe friendship got in the way (you muttered something about friendship in a recent PM), or rather you felt I'd be an easy lynch leaving you with just one townie and a win for you. Or maybe you even thought I actually was a serial killer, and hoped that today wouldn't happen safely knowing that Cranebeinn would be blocking me leaving you free to kill him and there'd be some sort of parity and a win for you. Sorry to disappoint you; I'm town, always have been. So Agnar, it's pretty much going to come down to you today I think. You set out reasons the other day for why you still thought I might be a serial killer and I answered them fully, just as I've answered everything else. Feel free to ask me anything else you'd like to know, because both of our lives depend on you believing me when I tell you that I'm the vig. Think of it this way, perhaps. Worst case scenario for you is Scum-Pudding, SK-Petrus and you. You definitely can't win with scum, but seeing as I won't be killing you in case of explosions, that would force a tie between a supposed-SK-me and you. In fact, that would still happen I guess in the unlikely event that Pudding is town, but he's clearly not. If you lynch me, even if I am a serial killer (and I'll say for the thousandth time that I'm not, I am the vig) Scum would be at parity with you and they'd win. Essentially, lynching me has a much greater risk of you completely and utterly losing the game for all of us. But this is all under the assumption that you, Agnar, are actually town; but after all that from Pudding it seems pretty clear to me that Pudding is scum so you must be town.

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Of all your theories, this one actually makes some sort of sense to me. I briefly wondered why Dar plucked 'redirector' out of thin air in his half-arsed defence before he was lynched (and I think I said so at the time). My vote is staying where it is.

Yes, why do we need a protector when the scum have only killed twice? I can see the point of a scum protector with a town killing role, though. Eh? "I'm going to make an assumption and ignore any possible other line of thinking and if it's not true then I'll just roll over." We know Cranebeinn is a blocker. We presume Pudding is a tracker. Nor have there been any vig counterclaims. The scum had a day cop and, of all people role-copped Patrekr, and of all people he was the vig, and then they took him out, and somehow I telepathically knew it was ticketyboo to claim vig? Is it more common for there to be a vig or a serial killer? I'll tell you: vig. Seeing as everyone wants to keep looking back at past Ragnaröks, the first Ragnarök had two vigs and no serial killer. Nobody claims to me. You didn't claim to me, despite me being such a "well-known and well-established player". And what's the likelihood of Danr claiming to me without investigating me as town? He didn't even contact Pudding (to whom everyone claims) until he'd investigated him as town. I explained my suspicion of Danr at the time - it's even in the day threads, along with Canute's suspicion too. At the time I thought that Pudding was hiding a team-mate and stringing along a townie Canute. I could have denied killing Danr, and if I were a serial killer, then why not just kill any old target I'm given and be happy I'm killing? Because I am not a serial killer, I am the vig, and everything about me is screaming that I'm the vig, and I don't understand why people don't see it. I've explained my night actions over and over, and yet more fanciful theories appear. Go back and read everything I've said in the day threads - I went after Mist, I led the vote on Jarl, I was after Toki. I was even trying to nightkill Toki when Canute had me blocked. All of my actions, both public and private, clearly show you I am the vig. Because a bomb claim would make me think twice about night killing you. They haven't blocked any of us, assuming you're the town blocker. They've been happy with us doing whatever we're doing all game. I'm not scum, so why do you want to lynch me? Not that risky if it keeps him alive, solidifies him as 'definite town' and allows him to go on to win the game for his scum team. You really think it's better to lynch me over a scummy bomb claim? You really, really think that lynching the vig (because you think we don't need a night kill anymore) is going win us the game? It's not a live possibility that I might be a serial killer, because I'm not, I'm the vig. Read all of my posts, it's obvious. How confirmed do you want me to be? I'm a lot more confirmed than you are. You said nothing all game, and then when you scum numbers start getting low you pop out and start actually saying something, generally throwing around wild accusations. You, who has been whispering in everyone's ear all game long. You, who had me blocked the night I went to kill Toki. You accused me of being a serial killer to make your theory fit - the one where we had to lynch Pudding or the day would end. You couldn't get us to lynch Pudding, so now you'll just settle for trying to paint me as something I'm not and remove the risk that I might night kill your scummy big behind to boot. We only have your word for it that you ever protected anyone. You're trying to line up a theory that ends with me being a serial killer. And if I'm a serial killer then how on EARTH is the ENTIRE TOWN BLOCK still alive??? Read the conversation again. You had said yourself you saw me targeting Lambi but you didn't know for certain that I'd killed her, and I know how much you "verify, verify, verify". And what I actually said to you was that I was open to suggestions regarding my kill, in an effort to try to start a town block, but mused that you might want to verify the blocker claim. At the time we were doing the nervous townie dance, but if you look back I was trying to work with you, albeit guardedly. Would there be a day ten with two scum killers? If there were two scum teams and two scum killers, then surely we'd be much more tooled-up night action-wise to deal with it. But we're not. I am the vig. Lynching me is a bad idea (whether or not you think we do or don't need a kill action) because I am town. Read my posts, see the logic - I am the vig and you're considering lynching me even though I've been fighting scum all through the game and I'm clearly town. The scum haven't been killing, and the most likely thing is that they have been converting, which is why I'm here - to help cull their numbers. I have the luxury of knowing that I'm town, and that means there must be at least one more scum left. You may not think we need a killing role (and I've stayed home the last two nights), but we sure as hell need townies. Vote Canute Grey-Bush (CallMePie) You keep whispering in everyone's ears that I must be a serial killer when I'm clearly not. You spent most of the game hiding, until your numbers got too low, and then come out swinging with wild and illogical accusations, and you argued to have me blocked from killing a scummy Toki on night six (you also wanted to lynch Ragnvald over Toki day six I beleive), along with wanting to lynch Pudding because of a theory despite a night action result on scummy Petr that warranted testing, and then you still targeted Toki that night for fear I might kill him. The only reason I would kill him would be because I'm the vig and because he was scummy as hell, and I can see every reason why the scum team might have a protector.

I think the likeliest answer is indeed that it was part of a conversion. A secondary answer might be that he was protecting him. Because why? I don't understand where this is coming from, and you give absolutely no reasoning whatsoever. The only reason Canute thought I was the a serial killer is because he needed to to make the numbers work to insist you should be lynched or the game would end. Two days ago. I'm sensing this is a rhetorical question, but if someone were converted to neutral, do you think they're going to say "Hey guys, something weird happened, I'm neutral now!"? Even Toki? So here's my list of actions: Night one: Kill Lambi - for being a scummy scumster. He was a scummy scumster. Night two: Kill Dagstyyr - Pudding had been trying to convince me to kill Dagstyyr, and then the post on the scummy writeboard was pointed out, so it was worth testing. Night three: Kill Munud - the scummiest person in the game at that point, despite being shown to be loyal in the morning. The kill did, however, save us all a day of just lynching Munud. Night four: Kill Kaupmad - generally agreed to be scummy and his kill was discussed with Pudding and, through him, Canute and Cranebeinn apparently. Again, surprised to see him show up as loyal. Night five: Kill Danr - I've already gone over this, but it's evident I found him scummy from my posts in the thread (as did other people), and I thought Pudding was trying to 'hide' a scummy teammate. Unfortunately he was the investigator. Night six: Kill Toki - except I didn't because the "town block" decided to block me that night, after I had told them of my intention to kill Toki. Night seven: Kill Lauga - after full discussion with the "town block" the decision was made for me and I complied. Night eight: Stay home. Night nine: Stay home. Yes, he was the scummiest guy in the game at that point, and I told you I was going to kill him and I ended up blocked. Funny that. You say it was Canute's idea, Cranebeinn says that you suggested it and that Canute was a strong supporter. So whose idea was it? Which strongly implies that something happened night six; that somebody (i.e. Toki) was converted to neutral. And if that's true then if my kill had gone through on night six he would have died and shown up as neutral, exposing what was happening. Night seven Petr completes the conversion and night eight for reasons best known only to himself, Canute 'protects' Toki.

Vote: Toki (Trumpetking)

I agree with you that the scum kill should carry over; as I've said before it's a factional kill and cannot (or should not) be lost. The last scum kill was on night three when Tarben was killed (at three scum gone). There was no scum kill night four, and Dar wasn't blocked night four before being lynched day five. In fact scum weren't blocked night four, so despite being blocked, they still didn't kill? My point is that I'm now much less convinced that being tracked not doing anything indicates Loyalty necessarily.

Vote: Petr Half-Troll Your responses to Pudding are odd and scummy. I know I'm the vig so Canute's concern about wanting to keep Petr around for the night is wrong. We have a night action result, we should test it. If Pudding has been lying then we'll know tomorrow. I keep forgetting: Vote: Petr Half-Troll (Piratedave84)

You accept his paraphrasing of our conversation, yet you think he's scum. You accept his paraphrasing of our conversation, but you don't accept that (according to you) he no longer suspects me of being a SK. Because I didn't assume he was town just because he tracked me. Because that would be very silly. He said the same thing to me that (according to you) he said to you about seeing the tracker as more of a scum role. I am also pretty well known for being paranoid, especially with Pudding. I don't know how many times I have to say that I didn't know that Danr was the investigator, and if I had known I wouldn't have killed him. You've had time between night six and now to talk to me and try to find out for yourself if you really do think I'm the vig or a serial killer. You even go so far as to say you're not sure here, but you still want me lynched - you're saying there's a possibility you might think I'm the vig and you want me lynched? You're not even telling me why you think I'm a serial killer apart from "Pudding acted like he thought you might be and then stopped acting like that, and you killed the investigator". Has no other vig ever accidentally killed another town power role? Plus, you had to come up with some weird idea that I was on another scum team to justify why I was out killing scum night one. Killing scum (and scummy scum at that) night one is what a vig does. Nobody has counterclaimed vig, and there have never been more than two kills in a night, so which is it more likely we have: a vig, or a serial killer and no vig? I'm pretty sure I'm more pissed off about that than you are.

I've been doing a little cross-checking. There are several issues here, but one will naturally stand out to me more than anyone. Everyone knows who everyone else is by now, surely? I am the vig. I killed Lambi on night one and that same night I was tracked by Pudding (who you all already know is the tracker). After a lot of back and forth he claimed tracker to me and I claimed vig to him. Canute's argument about Pudding seems to hinge on the idea that Pudding has revealed a false tracking result on Petr, and wants to lynch Petr, and that will result in Pudding winning the game as he will kill at night and, apparently I'm the serial killer and I'll also kill at night, so Pudding will win. The problem with that is that I'm the vig, and not the serial killer, so no such thing is going to happen. Canute, I have heard so many times now, both in private and in the thread, that you think that I'm the serial killer. Could you at least explain your reasoning? I think this might be part of it, from what I can gather: I killed Danr. I killed him because I thought he was scum; I had actually suspected Pudding privately, and had mentioned Danr as scummy and as a possible tracking target. Pudding never mentioned him again, however Pudding has been saying since day two to me how much he trusted Canute, so (ironically perhaps) when Canute kept calling Danr out in the thread, and I myself found Danr scummy, and it seemed like Danr might have been a possible scum teammate of Pudding's, I killed him. I fully expected him to show up as scum (and I wasn't alone in thinking he was scummy), but no he was town. And then it turns out he was the investigator. Which is kinda embarrassing, but I didn't know that until Pudding told me. And he told me in a conversation along the lines of: Pudding: "Please tell me you didn't kill Danny" Me: "Uhm, but I did kill Danny, I thought he was scum." Pudding: "He was our investigator" (train of invective) If you think I'm the serial killer for that, you're wrong, I'm the vig. Add into that that I could have denied killing Danny and said it was the scum kill. The other reason I was given was that I was reluctant to participate in a town block PM conversation with the bomb. I made it perfectly clear that I thought that the bomb claim was a scummy claim and that I thought having them in a group PM with the town power roles, discussing what to do each night, was a bad idea. Not once has Canute come to me to ask me about anything (like why I killed Danr, for instance) - you took everything Pudding relayed about me at face value, and he's the one you're now yelling is definitely scum. Why do you trust anything he's said about me if he's scum? Why haven't you discussed your concerns with me? The more I've read the events of today, the less sense Canute's argument makes. This doesn't mean that Pudding isn't scum, and I've had on and off suspicions about him pretty much the whole game, but we are not at lynch or lose because I'm not the serial killer, I am the vig.

We are never closed, but we those of us who do the adding do sometimes get busy. Apologies for the delay and thank you for your patience, as you will also read in the RA sign up thread, I've added you.

We prefer you to start off in the Academy with smaller sets, so €20 sets are more than adequate. I've added you, welcome to the Reviewers Academy and apologies for the delay. Welcome to the Reviewers Academy and apologies for the delay.

If Petr has claimed vanilla and has been seen doing something at night, that is incredibly scummy. Surely most night actions don't have a visible effect? Only being blocked or killed (or pranked) would have any sort of visible effect, and we've seen no pranks, and clearly Toki is still alive. It would be crazy for scum to not choose to keep their killing action, and surely the scum kill is a factional kill that can't be lost anyway? If Petr claimed vanilla but was tracked doing something last night then he has a lot of explaining to do, though it doesn't seem clear that he'll actually be here to do that explaining.

Vote: Tarr Egg-Chaser (Tariq J) You’ve made several scummy statements (and you even say yourself that you’re scummy) and your reaction to being called out was also scummy, as has already been pointed out. Vengeful is a safe claim for a scum, so I’m willing to put my vote on you.

I think I've missed it, but where did 'the scum' talk about conversions (and not a traitor)? I remember Munud talking about conversions lots, but he was Loyal. But Cranebeinn is of the view that if the scum mentioned it, then it can't be true. Not that I disagree with you (or Cranebienn either, scum love to play WIFOM by talking and not talking about things); I'm coming around to the idea that there may be/have been a traitor, but I still think it's remarkably coincidental that there might be one after your initial comment on day one. I can't see that there would be conversions and a traitor. I think it's unlikely that there's multiple traitors, if indeed there are traitors at all, but I am willing to assume that, one way or another, the scum have been trying to add to their number. I agree with the possibility of there being a godfather, as that is one of the commonest roles in use. Whether they're still around or have been killed/lynched already is something we probably won't know until all this is over.

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If there have been two scum results, I'd really love to know who the other one was so we can lynch them. As I understand it, only Dar was investigated as scum, and we lynched him already. Either of Ragnvald or Toki could be scum, and I'd be happy to lynch either of them. I voted for Toki yesterday so I'll continue with that. Should I need to switch to Ragnvald to gain a lynch then I'll be happy to do so. Vote: Toki (Trumpetking)

How are you so sure they weren't up to killing Danr..? Except you and Toki, at least. Could you maybe pretend that you actually care?

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I remember you saying you felt strongly about Pudding, so I asked why you hadn't voted for him if you did feel so strongly. And then you voted for Pudding. So you didn't 'express a slight concern and leave it at that'. Other people have got it. Even Ragnvald's got it (no offence Ragnvald, but you are new). It was the fact that you didn't even consider him to be scum, despite being surprised that he was town. However, to the matter at hand: Unvote: Toki (Trumpetking) and Vote: Dar (Dragonfire) So in your initial under-reaction you believe there's something wrong with the investigator, then you roll over and say they can't be lying and list one possible reason, one impossible reason and then you just pluck 'redirector' out of thin air? Eh? You just wouldn't say this if you actually were town.