LEGO LotR - general discussion

[greenalfonzo]

There may be a strategic reason. Hasbro just unveiled their Kre-O Dungeons and Dragons line. The figs are OK, but the sets are awful. Poor mans Castle. Worse than the Megabloks World of Warcraft sets. I can see Lego keeping some sort of High Fantasy theme going in order to not leave that space unchallenged. It's a small hope I know. But you have to figure that TLG is warily watching just how aggressive Kre-O and Megabloks have been with licensing suddenly.

I just looked these up, and saw that they are selling individual CMF-style "Army Builder Pack" just for their D&D theme! Come on, get a clue, Lego! How cool would it have been if they did this for LOTR!!! Sigh.

[Deathleech]

I just looked these up, and saw that they are selling individual CMF-style "Army Builder Pack" just for their D&D theme! Come on, get a clue, Lego! How cool would it have been if they did this for LOTR!!! Sigh.

I saw those as well. $2.50 for a blind polybag, all of which looked to have soldier types. They also have $4 sets that have named characters with a small built piece, and then the bigger sets with several figures and more significant builds. If Lego had done this for the LotR they would of been printing money. Obviously the sets aren't that spectacular, but they don't even have any above $25. The focus was definitely on the minifigs. I seriously wish Lego would of focused a little more on this and the army building. People say kids don't like to army build yet Hasbro can get away with it with one of their lines? Riiiight...

[Hammerhand]

I seriously wish Lego would of focused a little more on this and the army building. People say kids don't like to army build yet Hasbro can get away with it with one of their lines? Riiiight...

I don't get it when people say this. When I was a kid, I liked the sets (especially castle based) that had a lot of minifigs the best, because I wanted to have big armies. I would have LOVED to have actual army builders. I think that's probably the case with most kid-lego fans. I mean, what do boys like better than epic battles (I say boys since they are the main target market for this type of lego)?

[Deathleech]

I was the same way. I have said it before, but when I was younger I ALWAYS wanted tons of grunts. I wanted at least a dozen Foot Soldiers, Storm Troopers, etc. I mean you only see Luke, Han, etc. face Vader what, a few times in the entire trilogy or the Ninja Turtles face Shredder once an episode? And they are under special circumstances. Meanwhile they are facing the mundane Stormtroopers for over half the movie or Foot Soldiers half an episode. I wanted to re-create the scenes as close as possible to their source material.

LotR is the same way except they have some amazing epic battles. I don't want Gandalf in ten sets. A few is fine cause people need options at different price points, but I would rather have tons of sets where you get extra soldiers. It's beyond stupid that with the Hobbit line, for example, you would have almost triple the good guys as you do bad if you bought one of every set. 13 dwarves, Gandalf, Bilbo, 2x Lake-town Guard, 4x Mirkwood Elves, Thranduil, Legolas, Taurial, Bard, Beorn, and Radagast is 27 minifigures vs what? The Goblin King, 2 goblins, Yazneg, Azog, the Necromancer, and 6 Gundabad Orcs? That's only 12. So kids really want to face their 27 good figures vs 12 bad? Especially when most of those bad ones are getting taken out left and right in the films and there are literally thousands of them? And the worst part is this doesn't even include all the duplicates of the good characters you get. Add in a couple more Bilbos, Gandalf, and another Thorin and the numbers are closer to 30+ vs 12

Edited February 21, 2014 by Deathleech

[Darth Punk]

You see most children have imaginations and don't need to have exact replicas to play and pretend. The vast majority of parents aren't going to buy Johnny the same toy over and over again so he can reproduce battles in a movie. He will be easily able to use all his toys to do so if he wishes. And when he tired of playing battle he can take all those other different toys and play something else.

Some times Han Solo flies the millennium falcon, sometimes he's a cowboy and some times he is the bad buy. Sometimes dinosaurs are good guys fighting the evil justice league. This is how most children play, the same ones who represent the vast majority of those who buy or have bought for them Legos.

Parents tend to want to raisewell rounded children so they like to see them get a variety of toys the represent a child's varying interests. Plus the fact most patents don't have endless budgets so children have to make due and you guessed it, use their imagination.

[greenalfonzo]

It's also that CMF's are an entirely different market from sets. They're very much an 'impulse' purchase that kids can grab one or two of on each trip to the store, unlike the bigger sets that have to be wish-listed or begged for. Minifigs are always popular, especially in character-driven storylines like LOTR. They wouldn't cut into sales of the big sets at all, especially since the universe is rich enough that you could still do the exclusive main characters in the sets, but add the army builders and niche secondary characters in the CMF line.

Double sigh.

[Deathleech]

You see most children have imaginations and don't need to have exact replicas to play and pretend. The vast majority of parents aren't going to buy Johnny the same toy over and over again so he can reproduce battles in a movie. He will be easily able to use all his toys to do so if he wishes. And when he tired of playing battle he can take all those other different toys and play something else.

Some times Han Solo flies the millennium falcon, sometimes he's a cowboy and some times he is the bad buy. Sometimes dinosaurs are good guys fighting the evil justice league. This is how most children play, the same ones who represent the vast majority of those who buy or have bought for them Legos.

Parents tend to want to raisewell rounded children so they like to see them get a variety of toys the represent a child's varying interests. Plus the fact most patents don't have endless budgets so children have to make due and you guessed it, use their imagination.

Maybe that applies to very young children in the 3-6 range, but after 6 or 7 I don't think most kids are using Han solo as a cowboy or dinosaurs to fight the evil justice league. When I was around 9 years old I was using the characters as I saw them in movies and just using my imagination to make up my own scenarios. Luke Skywalker trapped in a cave on Hoth as Snow Troopers searched for him, Scout Troopers ambushing the Ewok village, Jabbar's Palace being raided by the Empire, etc. That is the market Lego is trying to appeal to with their LotR line, the 8-13 year olds. These kids are going to want soldiers to mimic the big battles seen on film, not 15 Gandalfs.

I am not talking about exactly replicating the battles either. To do that you would need thousands upon thousands of soldiers for each side. I am just talking about giving people a decent number of soldiers. As I said before the number of good characters in the Hobbit line vs the number of bad is so lopsided it's not even funny. I also forgot some other good characters like the elves in the Barrel Escape set, and I excluded all the doubles you get like Bilbo and Gandalf. Even still there are 3x as many good as there are bad, but that's not at all how it is in the films.

I understand parents are going to want to buy a random assortment of sets and not 10 of the same army builder or battle pack over and over. That's not what we were talking about though. We were talking about a $2.50-3 CMF style polybag, not even a full set. Even a $12.99 battle pack like Lego puts out for Star Wars. I mean if parents buy just 2-3 of those, that's more than the one any of them will buy of Riddles for the Ring. And plus, if a parent won't even buy multiples of a $2.50 polybag or a $12.99 BP set why on Earth would they buy multiples of Mirkwood Elf Army for $30, or worse yet the Black Gates for $60? It seems hypocritical to use this argument when Lego DOES offer army builders and for a much higher price.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Deathleech

[Faefrost]

Have other previous released licensed themes officially announced when they were about to end? Or do they simple disappear? When i look at shelves at the brand stores i sadly think that LotR is done with only 4 available sets

4 sets for a follow up wave is not that out of bounds. I think HP had a few 4 or 5 set waves. And even some of the early SW waves were pretty small.

As far as themes announcing when they were being discontinued? I think the only one was HP. And that was because of splitting the last movie into two, Lego actually still had product on shelves up until the day the actual license contract expired. That's not normally the case. Normally the license contracts have enough padding that the theme has run its natural sales course and faded off the shelves organically well before the contracts end date.

Of course at that time we did not realize that TLG had opted not to renew the HP license with WB in part because they were being offered the LotR one as a replacement.

[Hammerhand]

Maybe that applies to very young children in the 3-6 range, but after 6 or 7 I don't think most kids are using Han solo as a cowboy or dinosaurs to fight the evil justice league. When I was around 9 years old I was using the characters as I saw them in movies and just using my imagination to make up my own scenarios. Luke Skywalker trapped in a cave on Hoth as Snow Troopers searched for him, Scout Troopers ambushing the Ewok village, Jabbar's Palace being raided by the Empire, etc. That is the market Lego is trying to appeal to with their LotR line, the 8-13 year olds. These kids are going to want soldiers to mimic the big battles seen on film, not 15 Gandalfs.

I am not talking about exactly replicating the battles either. To do that you would need thousands upon thousands of soldiers for each side. I am just talking about giving people a decent number of soldiers. As I said before the number of good characters in the Hobbit line vs the number of bad is so lopsided it's not even funny. I also forgot some other good characters like the elves in the Barrel Escape set, and I excluded all the doubles you get like Bilbo and Gandalf. Even still there are 3x as many good as there are bad, but that's not at all how it is in the films.

I understand parents are going to want to buy a random assortment of sets and not 10 of the same army builder or battle pack over and over. That's not what we were talking about though. We were talking about a $2.50-3 CMF style polybag, not even a full set. Even a $12.99 battle pack like Lego puts out for Star Wars. I mean if parents buy just 2-3 of those, that's more than the one any of them will buy of Riddles for the Ring. And plus, if a parent won't even buy multiples of a $2.50 polybag or a $12.99 BP set why on Earth would they buy multiples of Mirkwood Elf Army for $30, or worse yet the Black Gates for $60? It seems hypocritical to use this argument when Lego DOES offer army builders and for a much higher price.

I think just a $12.99 battle pack would be great, because you still get a good amount of soldiers if you buy 1 in the case of kids/parents. I doubt parents are going to get their kids over 2-3 of the same set, but just one or two, and they'd sell like hoth cakes for AFOLs and kids alike.

And there's got to be more bad guys than good guys. Or at least more than we have. There wasn't 8 orcs vs the 20+ good guys in Hobbit/LOTR. Just one bad guy and one good guy battlepack would be awesome. But then we get into the license question. *Sigh* All the good things that could have been done with this line. Not to rag on lego, but I do think there are quite a few missed opportunities that had the potential to be very successful.

[d-delay]

I do think this painting of the Mirkwood Elves or even Laketown as "good" versus the orcs as the only bad in the story ignores the reality of the pre-BO5A circumstances where the dwarves were talking on all comers. I don't think you can be so binary, not if you take the story seriously, and especially if you are delving into he realm of childhood imagination. Only under severe duress did the dwarves, humans and elves work together. And it is surely reasonable for Lego to prioritise named characters of any faction over grunts from a sales point of view. Only Lego's fantastically extensive work in providing nearly every named Hobbit character allows us to now complain about a lack of grunts. I am sure if they had prioritised grunts over named characters the howls would be far louder ;)

[Deathleech]

I do think this painting of the Mirkwood Elves or even Laketown as "good" versus the orcs as the only bad in the story ignores the reality of the pre-BO5A circumstances where the dwarves were talking on all comers. I don't think you can be so binary, not if you take the story seriously, and especially if you are delving into he realm of childhood imagination. Only under severe duress did the dwarves, humans and elves work together.

None of them wanted to conquer or control the other like Sauron did though, they were all just being greedy or trying to take what they thought they deserved. Just because they didn't see eye to eye doesn't make one of these factions "bad". Regardless what side they were on, in the book it listed the force sizes or gave rough estimates. There were around 200-300 men, 500 Iron Hill Dwarves, 1000 or so elves and.... over 6,000 goblins and wargs! Obviously I don't want 6,000+ goblins, but when we have 2 Lake-town Guards, 5-6 elven soldiers and only 6 Gundabad Orcs and 2 goblins I find those numbers to be pretty off. Add in all the named characters and it makes the bad side look that much smaller and more lopsided.

And it is surely reasonable for Lego to prioritise named characters of any faction over grunts from a sales point of view. Only Lego's fantastically extensive work in providing nearly every named Hobbit character allows us to now complain about a lack of grunts. I am sure if they had prioritised grunts over named characters the howls would be far louder ;)

That's true. I am sure if Lego left out some main characters people would be upset. I just wish they could of gotten a better balance. All the extra Gandalf's, Bilbo's, Gimli's, and Frodo's is annoying. It's not as bad as some themes, I know, but it is still not great how many extra we get. Really I would of loved to have seen two additional $12.99 battle packs with each wave. Especially for the last two waves which were only four sets each. Surely Lego could of added two smaller battle packs to them? I mean how much extra work would that of really been on Lego's part?

The first LotR wave could of had eight sets total. Split Uruk-hai Army into a smaller version and create a separate Rohan Army set, both priced at $12.99. The Rohan army one could have Eomer, or preferably Gamling (and put Eomer in the Helm's Deep set). Throw in the orange haired grunt we got in UHA and two other grunts. Give one of them the horse helm we already got, and the other two this helm. Give Gamling some existing hair from another theme. Two new prints between them all and BAM! Money in Lego's pocket! They even could of given us two soldiers, an elf soldier, and a horse instead. The build could of been a smaller wall piece. The UHA set would pretty much stay the same except shrink down the bolt thrower slightly.

For the first Hobbit wave Lego really should of given us a $12.99 goblin battle pack. Four goblins total, re-use the two normal ones from Goblin King battle and create one new one with a new print. Throw in a small rope bridge piece. BAM! More money in Lego's pocket! Lego could of even gotten rid of the Riddles for the Ring set and just included Gollum in the Goblin King Battle set since that set was terrible. I'm not really sure what the good guy BP could of been here, Lego could of skipped doing one I guess?

For the second LotR wave Lego really should of given us two proper battle packs and one definitely should of been a Mordor Orc set. Use the Moria Orc torso and just make some small modifications like change the neck color and arm color to red. It would look close enough to the Morannon Orcs. All Lego would of had to do is give us one or two new helm molds but if they REALLY wanted to skimp out they could of just made this helm in a gray color. That means the only really new prints would of been the orc heads. Give us one mint green colored orc (like the trolls from the Fantasy era Castle sets), an orang-ish yellow one, and then just re-use the existing dark tan Mordor Orc heads on the last two Mordor Orcs. The build could of been another catapult we see outside Minas Tirith. This set could easily be used with the Black Gates, Pirate Ship Ambush, Shelob Attacks, and even Orc Forge (though not technically correct). For the good guy battle pack Lego could of just thrown in four undead soldiers and a small rock structure with skulls? I am not really sure since nothing else would of really worked here in conjunction with the existing sets.

For the second Hobbit wave just give us a Gundabad Orc set with three Gundabad Orcs and the brown Warg, and then one with three elves (one in armor seen at the water gate, one in dark green hoods, and one with hair and ears) and an eagle? The Gundabard Orcs may of required an additional print and the elves definetly would of for the armored elf. This would of eliminated the need for the MEA set and made that wave only five set total.

That leaves the last, yet un-released waves. Obviously everyone is hoping for a third LotR with some Gondor stuff. A $12.99 Gondor Army battle pack would be PERFECT here. It would only require one or two new molds. Give us the standard Gondor helm on two identical soldiers. One Ithilien Ranger using the existing hood and then one White Tree Guard. The tree guard could use the standard Gondor Helm but it could have holes in it on the sides where you can put feathers. That way Lego doesn't even need to make two separate molds. Just one new helm mold and possibly a new shield mold. All four minifigs would require new prints but it would be worth it. The "bad guy" BP for this wave could have two Haradrim and two Easterlings. The Easterling would require a new helm mold but that would be the only one required for this set as the Haradrim could use existing hoods from the Ninja/PoP/etc. themes. The last Hobbit wave could have a rag tag human battle pack and an Iron Hill dwarf one. Without seeing the last film it's hard to comment on the exact details at this point.

This would of made EVERYONE happy I think. It would of just broke the more expensive army builders in the waves down into two separate ones for each faction. It seems like people think army builders need to sell more than the standard small sets but I just don't see how that is true. If Lego sells a single $12.99 army builder or a single Gandalf Arrives/Wizard Battle, they are making the same amount of money as long as the molds used are the same and not exclusive, are they not? Obviously I mentioned a lot of new molds but they could have been used in the bigger sets as well, and none except maybe one or two were really necessary. The difference is army builders have the potential to sell dozens upon dozens of sets. I don't know a single person who bought more than one or two of Gandalf Arrizes or Wizard Battle. I definitely don't know any that bought a dozen or more, like I would of any of the BPs I listed above. The only REAL question is if kids would buy at least one of each of the listed BPs? I think they would. Even one of each set would significantly increase their army sizes. The first LotR wave did a really good job, imo, of giving us a varied wave. We got the entire Fellowhsip, while at the same time a great number of Uruk-hai and Mordor Orcs (over 10+ even if you only bought one of each set).

[d-delay]

I seriously think I my life is complete now that I have been the source of another Deathleech Middle Earth battlepack rant :D

I LOVE your passion Deathleech. I knew you would bite and you didn't let me down.

I so wish Lego would release a Middle Earth battlepack for you, I don't understand the mystery of their absence either.

Some days when I read your posts I truly believe that I would cry tears of joy on your behalf if Lego released such a thing.

Let's just hope your split wave theory comes true in 2015. It would be enough ;)

[Deathleech]

I know I can get a little fanatical about army building. Some people have little to no interest in it and just want the core characters. Other people want nice display sets, and some don't care about the theme at all and just want the sets to use as a parts packs. Not everyone wants the same thing from a line and it's obvious some don't see the use in battle packs (and I probably over emphasis it at times ). The thing is, I think LotR is the absolute perfect theme for doing battle packs/army builders. I mean literally half RotK is the Battle of Pelennor Fields, the Battle at the Black Gates, or the lead up to them. A huge chunk of TTT is the Battle of Helm's Deep. Sure Tolkien hated war, but there is no denying they are a HUGE part of the books and films. I can't even think of a ton of films where you see 10,000 soldiers attacking a castle like Helm's Deep, let alone 100,000+ attacking a huge city like Minas Tirith.

I think LotR is perfectly suited for army builder so it's just a shame to see all that potential go to waste. Literally every time a $30 army builder is announced in a new wave it piques my interest ten fold. These $30 army builders are better than nothing, sure, but they are still far from perfect and there aren't even enough of them imo. I just want to see the true potential of this theme. It make me so frusterated to see Hasbro doing battle packs for crappy Kre-O, yet we have LotR and the best we get is a $30 "army builder" every other wave

Edited February 21, 2014 by Deathleech

[Fives]

I think I'm gonna jump in on this BP discussion.

I for one agree with everything you've said here, Deathleech. LEGO was handed such an amazing opportunity with this license, and they squandered it by not making the proper choices for sets and releasing small waves. If LEGO had poured half as much effort into this theme as they do Star Wars or any other popular theme, they likely would've been far more successful.

However, I feel like all of these unfortunate choices that seem to be LEGO's doing may not be wholly their fault. We all know that the development of the Hobbit Trilogy has been unorthodox and quite disorganized. LEGO was given this project when it was originally two films, so obviously they started planning for that. Then, it switch to three films, which threw a wrench in the already existing layout for the theme. They did a marvellous job handling it, but there is no doubt that a lack of source material (images from the film) and the fact that many reshoots were done for the second film caused the DOS wave to feel a little slapdash.

Now, given this, there still is no explanation for the strange set choices made for the LOTR waves. The first wave was perfect, except for the fact that there were no battle packs. The next wave felt like such a huge waste of potential. Firstly, why did they cut down the wave size from 6 sets to 4? Unless sales were absolutely horrid and they couldn't pour as much money into a sinking ship, there is no sense behind that decision. And the fact that they put the effort forth to make Orthanc shows that LOTR must've been in a good standing sales wise if LEGO expected a D2C to be profitable. So if the sales were going well, why chop the wave almost in half?

Also, keep in mind that many of the first wave LOTR sets started getting discontinued quite quickly after their release, or at least sooner than sets from most other themes. Were those sets not selling well enough? Who knows. Whatever the issues behind this theme, Bps likely would've sold them all.

I don't want to just say the same thing as Deathleech, but it is true that people, when given the chance, love to army build to a certain extent. And sure, there are many tiers of army building within the AFOL community. Some go hardcore and collect factions by the hundreds, others are content with 10 or 20 of a faction, while some just want a few of each group for their collection. I sit in the middle section of this scale. I have altogether nearly 50 Servants of Sauron (Uruks, Mordor orcs, Gundabad orcs, along with some custom Corsairs and men of Harad), while my army of Free Peoples stands at roughly 30, give or take a few (and these number are not including named characters). My numbers would be far stronger if I had a cheaper way of obtaining soldiers. 7 UHA sets, 4 MEA sets and 20 Mordor Orc keychains were my way of building up my forces. Yet, if I had had access to $12-15.99 BPs based on all the major factions (Mordor, Isengard, Gundabad, Elves, Rohan, Gondor, Iron Hills) I would've likely spent just as much if not more money on smaller, grunt central sets rather than larger army builder sets with one named character.

Whatever their reasons, there seems to be only one logical explanation for the lack of LOTR and Hobbit battle packs: the license agreement. Something in the license agreement must say something about making sets without named characters. Maybe there is some weird part of the agreement that states Games Workshop holds the right to army building kits, since their game focusses far more heavily on large groups of grunts, whereas LEGO is a building toy. Who knows.

All I can say is that we will likely never see any LOTR BPs, which breaks my heart. It would be extremely generous if, after the license is done, LEGO gives us the reasons for the unfortunate life of this theme.

[naf]

Whatever their reasons, there seems to be only one logical explanation for the lack of LOTR and Hobbit battle packs: the license agreement. Something in the license agreement must say something about making sets without named characters. Maybe there is some weird part of the agreement that states Games Workshop holds the right to army building kits, since their game focusses far more heavily on large groups of grunts, whereas LEGO is a building toy. Who knows.

All I can say is that we will likely never see any LOTR BPs, which breaks my heart. It would be extremely generous if, after the license is done, LEGO gives us the reasons for the unfortunate life of this theme.

licensing restrictions, I think this is it more than anything. Lego has made battle packs before, in themes like Kingdoms. Either they believed that they wouldn't sell, or more realistically the license forbade it. It is interesting that every set has a named character in it, maybe that is indeed part of the license. Perhaps that's why Gandalf is in every set :P

I think sets like Uruk Hai Army and MEA are the closest things we're going to get to battle packs in this theme.

[Blakstone]

Licensing restrictions would prevent battle packs similar to the recently announced Castle ones where you get the minifigures already built with hardly and construction at all. The Lion Knights get a treasure chest with treasure only. Pirates recently had one and you will find them for Police and Firefighters as well.

We did get much larger battle packs with Uruk Hai Army, Orc Forge, and Mirkwood Elf Army. However, when posters complain about the lack of battle packs, I think they went the $12-14 sets such as Castle's Forest Ambush, Lone Rangers, Calvary Army Builder, or any number of Star Wars sets where you get four minifigure for that low price. With the exception of the Lone Ranger one, all the minifgures were generic. So they were cheap and easier to acquire.

I would like to army build a bit more with LotR though an army in the 30s is fine by me. As a kid, I did want to army build Storm Troopers or Cobra cannon fodder but my parents did not understand.

I think LEGO did a market analysis and decided against doing such a cheap battle pack. I can't guess why though. I know that they have to balance the interest of the KFOLs, army builder AFOLs, the MOCers that want a good brick selection in new colors if possible, and those fans that want to display gorgeous sets. For the most part I think LEGO did a good job of that. Still I really hope there is a third wave of LotR.

[Sir_Basil_Ashton]

For the most part I've been lurking, reading this thread. I have quietly acquired most of the LotR sets. I really wanted to buy more but my family was in the middle of a move when the sets were released in 2012 and the budget didn't allow me to plunge into another LEGO theme. It always seemed to me that the LotR sets sold well, never seeing any of the sets sit on store shelves for too long. The only set that sold slower than the others was The Mines of Moria. If LEGO had made a BP, I would have been all over it, buying multiples. I have to agree with Fives that license restrictions must be preventing LEGO from making a LotR BP. I have no doubt that a BP would sell like crazy. In any Castle/Medieval theme, an army is a must.

[Darth Caedus]

Deathleech, you've summed it up to perfection. That's exactly how the Tolkien line should have been run. Army builder sets that would've still sold to kids, and that the AFOLs would have bought dozens of.

[Deathleech]

Also, keep in mind that many of the first wave LOTR sets started getting discontinued quite quickly after their release, or at least sooner than sets from most other themes. Were those sets not selling well enough? Who knows. Whatever the issues behind this theme, Bps likely would've sold them all.

I don't think the whole wave was discontinued quicker, just a few select sets? I remember Attack on Weathertop was the first to get discontinued at around 8 months, followed shortly after by Gandalf Arrives. It seemed like Mines of Moria and Shelob Attacks had the average life span of about a year. Orc Forge (because it was an exclusive maybe?) seemed to last a little longer than a year, as did Helm's Deep and Uruk-hai Army.

We did get much larger battle packs with Uruk Hai Army, Orc Forge, and Mirkwood Elf Army. However, when posters complain about the lack of battle packs, I think they went the $12-14 sets such as Castle's Forest Ambush, Lone Rangers, Calvary Army Builder, or any number of Star Wars sets where you get four minifigure for that low price. With the exception of the Lone Ranger one, all the minifgures were generic. So they were cheap and easier to acquire.

Yup! $30 battle packs are hard to amass armies with, even for AFOLs. That's roughly $5 per minifigure and one of them is even a unique character. You are paying a lot of money for all the brick pieces you get in these sets. A $12.99-14.99 BP like the ones for Star Wars would give us 8 minifigures for the same, or even a slightly lower price. Not only that but you would get two more figs. If they needed to include a named character I think it would be easy enough. Just keep making them fairly generic looking characters that can double as regular soldiers. Eomer or Gamling for Rohan, Faramir as an Ithilien Ranger or suited up in his Gondor armor in the Gondor Army set, one of any number of named orcs we see (Grishnak, Gorbag, etc.) for Mordor.

Honestly I would even be fine with the $30 army builders if we could have gotten more of them. As it stands we only have two in the four waves released. The inclusion of a large molded creature in them is definitely appreciated even if they are a bit more expensive and hard to truly army build with. The first Hobbit wave could of had a Goblin Town Army set for $30. It could of been done a number of ways.. 3-4 goblins and some Orc Hunters with a gray Warg, an eagle instead of the Warg for the large creature, no hunters, etc. I am not sure who the good guys in the set could of been. Maybe a few Rivendell Knights and try to make the set cover a few different scenes in the film? For the second LotR wave the choice is pretty simple. Give us a set with 2-3 Mordor Orcs, 1-2 Haradrim, and 1-2 Easterlings. It could be used with the Black Gate set and significantly help boltser the ranks. It could also be used to cover a few scenes. Again I'm not sure who the good guys would be or if you even have to include. So far the formula has always been 2 vs 4 and a large moldec creature. If Lego deems they are absolutely necessary just throw in a new Rohan Soldier and a new Gondor Soldier (both could be re-used in Uruk-hai Army and Gondor Army later on), and make it have 2 Mordor Orcs, 1 Easterling, and 1 Haradrim. The large molded creature seems like a no brainer here if the set is suppose to be paired with Black Gates.. give us another eagle, or even a different colored horse. I think a troll or Fel Beast would be too big or I would say throw one of them in instead.

[lord raphael]

If only lego could make some of these for the hobbit/lotr.

Like lego could do a battle pack like this http://brickset.com/sets/852271-1/Knights-Battle-Pack and put in laketown gaurds or soilders of Gondor.

And this http://brickset.com/sets/852701-1/Troll-Warrior-Battle-Pack instead of trolls could be lotr orcs.

And instead of skeletons in this battlepack http://brickset.com/sets/852272-1/Skeletons-Battle-Pack Lego could put in soilders of the dead.

[The Awesomnator]

If only lego could make some of these for the hobbit/lotr.

Like lego could do a battle pack like this http://brickset.com/sets/852271-

1/Knights-Battle-Pack and put in laketown gaurds or soilders of Gondor.

And this http://brickset.com/sets/852701-1/Troll-Warrior-Battle-Pack instead of trolls could be lotr orcs.

And instead of skeletons in this battlepack

Pack'>http://brickset.com/sets/852272-1/Skeletons-Battle-Pack Lego could put in soilders of the dead.

I don't think the LotR licence allowed that. But if it did, those would be perfect.

[Faefrost]

licensing restrictions, I think this is it more than anything. Lego has made battle packs before, in themes like Kingdoms. Either they believed that they wouldn't sell, or more realistically the license forbade it. It is interesting that every set has a named character in it, maybe that is indeed part of the license. Perhaps that's why Gandalf is in every set :P

I think sets like Uruk Hai Army and MEA are the closest things we're going to get to battle packs in this theme.

Exactly! One of the TLG designers or reps told us up front in some interview or public commentary, way back when LotR sets were first announced, that each license specifically defines what constitutes a "construction set" for the purposes of that individual license. Things like piece count to figures, etc. they outright said that the wording of the LotR and Hobbit license does not permit the SW style 4 generic figs plus 50 piece build Battlepacks. It requires either fewer figures or more build. Hence the $30 5 fig Army Builders like Uruk Hai Army, Mirkwood Elf Army etc. it's not that they are choosing not to do Battlepacks. It is that it is not permitted under the terms of the license they have. This is a decision from WB, not Lego. Some licensors require a more substantial build in order to keep a cleaner separation between construction toy licenses and action figure licenses. Remember when Hasbro took issue with the magnets, they did not challenge Lego. Their beef was with Lucasfilms. Some license holders want to better shield themselves from conflict between licensees. It's an issue of lawyers and contracts. Not marketing or product development decisions.

Edited February 23, 2014 by Faefrost

[SirBlake]

Exactly! One of the TLG designers or reps told us up front in some interview or public commentary, way back when LotR sets were first announced, that each license specifically defines what constitutes a "construction set" for the purposes of that individual license. Things like piece count to figures, etc. they outright said that the wording of the LotR and Hobbit license does not permit the SW style 4 generic figs plus 50 piece build Battlepacks. It requires either fewer figures or more build. Hence the $30 5 fig Army Builders like Uruk Hai Army, Mirkwood Elf Army etc. it's not that they are choosing not to do Battlepacks. It is that it is not permitted under the terms of the license they have. This is a decision from WB, not Lego. Some licensors require a more substantial build in order to keep a cleaner separation between construction toy licenses and action figure licenses. Remember when Hasbro took issue with the magnets, they did not challenge Lego. Their beef was with Lucasfilms. Some license holders want to better shield themselves from conflict between licensees. It's an issue of lawyers and contracts. Not marketing or product development decisions.

This all makes sense except for the fact that LOTR hasn't had an action figure license for about a decade. There's no chance of licensing conflicts.

That said, let's take what you've said as fact (it most likely is): then how has TLG so flagrantly dropped the ball on the $30 5 fig Army Builders like Uruk-Hai Army? There's exactly one in the whole of the LOTR line, and the oft-mentioned elephant in the room (Gondor) goes ignored entirely?

Sure, I'd rather have 4-5 figs for $15, but you'd get no complaints from me if there were a $30 Gondor set that's comparable to UHA. I don't think there is any defense to this side of the argument. Licensing details are likely part of the equation, but they don't explain away the complete oversight of A: a hugely-important faction in the story and B: a guaranteed money maker.

[Blakstone]

Sir Blake, since there are not any Gondor sets, there are no Gondor Army Builder set. It seems clear that LEGO had planned a third wave that would likely contain Gondor. We don't know if that was delayed or scrapped altogether.

[SirBlake]

Sir Blake, since there are not any Gondor sets, there are no Gondor Army Builder set. It seems clear that LEGO had planned a third wave that would likely contain Gondor. We don't know if that was delayed or scrapped altogether.

Yeah, I know. But with Helms Deep in wave 1, there's no reason not to have Gondor in wave 2. I realize there are no solid answers here, I'm just not willing to let TLG off the hook with a licensing excuse.