Issues with 9v Motors

[Lazarus]

Hello All.

Just getting my son into my old 9v train that i got when i was a boy and found that my motor is not working well. It has issues with pulling a slightly heavy load. If i run my original train set the Load and Haul Railroad motor runs for about 10 mins at the most sometimes less and then the motor just stops. You leave it for some time and it will work again for some time and stop again. I have also bought some other trains a steam train and a diesel that i bough two motor for off brick link they where used. And found these are also doing almost the same thing working for a short amount of time and stopping. One of the new motors i have has issues just running on its own. The steam train has just a coal hopper the larger white lego one and the caboose. The diesel only pulls two logging trucks. I think this should not be much for these motors as i have seen a single 9v motor pull more than that on youtube.

Any ideas what would be coursing these issues. Track is all clean

could it be my controller??

why would 3 9v motors have the issues.??

am i putting to much weight on the motor??

Why does it stop working after running fine for x amount of time??

Thanks

Matthew

Edited May 22, 2012 by Lazarus

[harnbak]

You should definitely test with another controller/transformer.

Any tricks by a 9v expert?

[Lazarus]

New controller and track connectors and power pack ordered from brick link wont get them for a few weeks. Keen for some other ideas, would be happy if it just was the controller.

[kieran]

If you have a simple multi-meeter at home I would check the voltage coming out of the controller, if this is steady when the motor stops, take the motor of and add a different one to the track, if that starts then you know 100% its the motor in some way, if it also fails then it sounds like it may be a conduction issue in the track check all connections and carry on. if the voltage is not staying steady then you know the issue is with the controller / transformer. In this case you need to try a different one. if you only have one controller I would get a new transformer with the right plug and try that with the same controller, if the voltage now stays steady then you have a fix if not then i think the only thing left can be the controller.

[JopieK]

If you have a simple multi-meeter at home I would check the voltage coming out of the controller, if this is steady when the motor stops, take the motor of and add a different one to the track, if that starts then you know 100% its the motor in some way, if it also fails then it sounds like it may be a conduction issue in the track check all connections and carry on. if the voltage is not staying steady then you know the issue is with the controller / transformer. In this case you need to try a different one. if you only have one controller I would get a new transformer with the right plug and try that with the same controller, if the voltage now stays steady then you have a fix if not then i think the only thing left can be the controller.

Q: Why does it stop working after running fine for x amount of time??

A: Overheating

See also this topics:

http://www.eurobrick...showtopic=57305

http://www.eurobrick...showtopic=29854

http://www.eurobrick...showtopic=51366

Interesting relevant links:

http://www.philohome...rain/ttrain.htm

http://members.shaw....ow/DCC/DCC.html (see the interals of the 9V motor)

Maybe Stefan knows what the problem is:

This is his Brickshelf folder, he is a 1000steine member:

http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=2335

[harnbak]

Sounds like overheating of 9v motors is not an unusual issue.

But still it is weird: a motor should be able to pull a few carriages...

Maybe adding more motor blocks to one train helps?

[Hechristensen]

Hmm. It sounds like and could be a short circuit... How is your track layout? Try to make a simple little round track layout without any crosses or points and then see how it behaves.

[JopieK]

Hmm. It sounds like and could be a short circuit... How is your track layout? Try to make a simple little round track layout without any crosses or points and then see how it behaves.

I don't think it is a short... he would detect that very soon... There generally is "a short" or "no short", not a short after several time. I would go for harnbaks solution first... if that doesn't help a multimeter could be used to detect shorts.

[Hechristensen]

I don't think it is a short... he would detect that very soon... There generally is "a short" or "no short", not a short after several time. I would go for harnbaks solution first... if that doesn't help a multimeter could be used to detect shorts.

Well... I have seen short circuits where the train WAS runnnig, then slowing down like there was a loose connection, then suddently running again.... A short circuit can behave very odd... Its not allways like "working or NOT working", and many people dont understand why and how this short circuit thing is working.... Which is naturally as we aren't madatory educated as electricians in scool!

[SavaTheAggie]

9v motors work both ways - getting their power from the track or getting it from the power connector on their top. Test the motor by powering it off brand new batteries in a battery box hooked up to the top of the motor.

The major fault point on 9v motors is not the motor itself, but the brushes that pull power off the rails.

--Tony

[Lazarus]

9v motors work both ways - getting their power from the track or getting it from the power connector on their top. Test the motor by powering it off brand new batteries in a battery box hooked up to the top of the motor.

The major fault point on 9v motors is not the motor itself, but the brushes that pull power off the rails.

--Tony

In saying that could i run one of the newer 9v RC motors in tandom with a old 9v and connect the RC motor power wire to the top of the old 9v that is getting the power from the track. As this will be a good cheaper way to put in a 2nd motor as they are half the price of the old 9v ones.

Also from the sounds of all the good info you guys have given me i have a few things to work with.

On the over heating side, i am getting no smell from the motors and the loco seams to have power and can pull the loco for x amount of time. So not sure if it is a dead motor well 3 motors the same issue i ether have really bad luck with lego or its something else.

Controller and power pack seam to be the fix so i will start here. I have ordered one of these and will await them to arrive for some more testing.

Multi meter tested i wont be able to do unless i go buy one. So i will start with the controller first and i need a 2nd even if this is not the fault.

[peterab]

In saying that could i run one of the newer 9v RC motors in tandom with a old 9v and connect the RC motor power wire to the top of the old 9v that is getting the power from the track. As this will be a good cheaper way to put in a 2nd motor as they are half the price of the old 9v ones.

Also from the sounds of all the good info you guys have given me i have a few things to work with.

On the over heating side, i am getting no smell from the motors and the loco seams to have power and can pull the loco for x amount of time. So not sure if it is a dead motor well 3 motors the same issue i ether have really bad luck with lego or its something else.

Controller and power pack seam to be the fix so i will start here. I have ordered one of these and will await them to arrive for some more testing.

Multi meter tested i wont be able to do unless i go buy one. So i will start with the controller first and i need a 2nd even if this is not the fault.

In my experience with 9V trains on our club layout, it is almost never the controller or transformer unless you are running multiple motors at once. I'd start with track cleaning or overheating as the most likely suspects with Anthony's suggestion of the pickups a close third.

The track can appear clean but still give problems, though after running a train for a while it should fix itself.

As 9V motors age they may become clogged with lint, others have suggested opening the case and cleaning and lubricating them. When the motor has extra friction like lint or a too heavy load it has a temperature cut out, which will trip. This sounds like what is happening to me.

[JopieK]

Well... I have seen short circuits where the train WAS runnnig, then slowing down like there was a loose connection, then suddently running again.... A short circuit can behave very odd... Its not allways like "working or NOT working", and many people dont understand why and how this short circuit thing is working.... Which is naturally as we aren't madatory educated as electricians in scool!

Well now that you mention, I remember it from when I was young (with 12V track). So solution: measure the resistant between both tracks, it should be near infinite otherwise there is a short, but not before removing the motors since they also cause a short (but have a large resistance so no problem, that is how they work).

[Lazarus]

Can i use the 590 Electric, Train Motor 9V Modern with x1688a Electric, Train Motor 9V RC Train with Integrated PF Attachment and use the PF cable and attach it to the top of the 9v Electric to get t 9V source.

Or can i use Electric, Train Motor 9V RC Train and just get a cable to link them. I know the RC once have less pulling power but it will be what i need to power my trains.

Also i will get a loop setup this weekend and clean the track just to be sure and do some testing of my 3 motors and see what happens. I suspected there was some sort of Over heat cut out and it does sound like that as that was what i though. I am not keen to open the motors and clean them at this point.

What would be the best testing option test it with load or with just a plan motor. If best to test with load i will be using the lego freight set if had that came with my original 9v fully to spec of what lego think the motor can do built by the book. If they all run fine with this load i guess i am putting to much load on a single motor and will need to run two on my other locos.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Lazarus

[JopieK]

The RC ones have, but the PF ones are efficient and quite strong (see mr Hurbain (philohome) his finds)

[peterab]

Can i use the 590 Electric, Train Motor 9V Modern with x1688a Electric, Train Motor 9V RC Train with Integrated PF Attachment and use the PF cable and attach it to the top of the 9v Electric to get t 9V source.

Or can i use Electric, Train Motor 9V RC Train and just get a cable to link them. I know the RC once have less pulling power but it will be what i need to power my trains.

Also i will get a loop setup this weekend and clean the track just to be sure and do some testing of my 3 motors and see what happens. I suspected there was some sort of Over heat cut out and it does sound like that as that was what i though. I am not keen to open the motors and clean them at this point.

What would be the best testing option test it with load or with just a plan motor. If best to test with load i will be using the lego freight set if had that came with my original 9v fully to spec of what lego think the motor can do built by the book. If they all run fine with this load i guess i am putting to much load on a single motor and will need to run two on my other locos.

Since all the different motors have different characteristics, using two different types together for any great length of time is pretty much a bad idea. The motors will probably want to run at different speeds, thus you will be stressing at least one if not both at any time.

To test the motors I'd start with a bare motor on a small loop of track. Run it at at whatever speed allows it to loop around without interruption. A good motor might be a bit jumpy at first but should settle down once the track cleans itself. It should then run reliably for at least a couple of hours. A good motor should have no problem pulling any of the official lego train sets continuously, and should go fast enough to derail on maximum speed. Heavier trains will require more motors.

[Bricktrix]

Well for what my experience with these is worth, I think the last production run of 9v motors by TLG were slightly dodgy on the thermal cut off time being shorter than the old batch of motors.

I purchased some of the last new 9v motors from TLGs website some years ago and I've had exactly the problems you have described with every one of them.....whereas, if I swap those "new" motors out for older ones, the problems disapear.

I've tried many things to rectify these problems but nothing other than doubling up amounts of motors and power controllers works, or just switching the "new" motors out for the older production run motors.

However, with saying that (and this throws a spanner in the works for my theory) at the show we did in Manchester a few weeks ago, Megan Rothrock had exactly the same problems with one of her motors. The motor was powering a model that should have been able to run all day without fail.

She was able to rectify the problem by placing 2x2 plates onto every track connection (securing them all together) and also by flattening out the track as it was displayed on cloth, causing the track to raise in places.

I will stress that neither one of these methods worked alone, (i.e. she first tried just securing it all with the 2x2's which didnt work) and it was only a combination of both methods which appeared to solve the problem.

I'm still slightly dubious if these were actually the rectifications needed to get the motor to work as intended, but they certainly appeared to.........it may have just been a motor that she had not used often, and started to "wear in" through the course of time after these mods were done?

To try and put things more into perspective, my display is built onto wooden boards. The tracks are cleaned with model railway abrasive cleaners and each track connection is soldered to the next by wire under the boards to ensure conductivity. Each board is also joined to the next by "plug in" wires, something that was essential for transportation and disassembly. So in theory, the running track and circuit is as strong as Megans, yet I still get the problems you describe when running the newest motors I have, yet I have no problems if using the older motors, hence backing my theory up about the thermal cut off being shorter in the last batch of motors TLG produced.

[Steinkopf]

I have to agree with Carl that a lot of the problem seems to be due to the overly sensitive nature of the thermal overload in the latter production motors, whether this is due to a production fault or that the specifications had been changed without the consumer being advised it's hard to say due to the lack of any information, the fact that 9v was discontinued 5 years ago I dare say we will never get an answer to that question. During the final years of 9v trains TLG contracted external suppliers to produce a number of components, there are examples where the supplier had changed the original specifications set out by TLG in a bid to cut costs or speed up production. The best known example was the 2878c01 wheelsets for the Santa Fe coaches where the supplier had made changes to the wheel housing that had detrimental effects to the free running of the wheels, the changes made caused the wheels to scrape against parts of the housing the friction created made it very difficult for a single Super Chief loco fitted with a 9v motor to haul a full 5 car set due to the amount of drag.

Another issue that we need to look at is the original design parameters for the 9v motors, when you look at the the official 9v sets they all came with a small number of wagons or coaches, this in many respects followed the marketing philosophy of model train manufactures such as Hornby and Marklin where trainsets came with a locomotive and 2 or 3 coaches or 3 wagons, this could then be added too by purchasing additional pieces of rolling stock. The Metroliner was the heaviest of the original 9v train sets produced especially when you added the Club Car to the train, with the bulk of the sets the rolling stock tended to be fairly lightweight, the 9v motor was probably deemed capable enough for the task due to the somewhat limited load that it hauled. When the Santa Fe Super Chief came along 10 years after the introduction of 9v trains it was the first time that the 590 motor got a real workout on a decent length and somewhat heavy train, unfortunately at that stage it was probably too late and uneconomical to justify changing the specifications and making a stronger motor for the 9v range. In many respects I think this is where we come into the equation, the bulk of us are pushing our 590 motors beyond the boundaries of what they were designed for as we tend to want to run longer and heavier trains, add to this the weight and size of the pieces of rolling stock we produce are generally well above those of official sets. I recently rebuilt the 3 coaches I use in my LBB Push-Pull Regional Express to improve the trains running, I originally built the coaches at 36 studs in length and they weighed in at about 460 grams each, I then decided to reduce them to 32 studs in length this in turn reduced the weight to around 400 grams. The improvements in running quality that I have experienced has made it well worthwhile, the train is now able to run faster especially when it comes to curved sections where before the train slowed down dramatically due to the weight as well as the drag issues associated from trying to transfer drawbar power along the longer chassis.

On a final note I will add that the overtly sensitive thermal overload could be a blessing in disguise in that it greatly lessens the chances of us burning out our 590 motors, I have only ever seen one motor belonging to member of my train club get burnt out during an exhibition, funnily enough it was an old 590 motor fitted to an original Metroliner.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Steinkopf