Brunojj1's mind-opener - red supercar - free instructions now available for static version

[amorti]

Feels like we've shuffled away from the point a bit far here?

My 2c: 

CaDA doesn't have to publish instructions (for which they've paid money) without charge. Particularly not in order to help people build it using parts from another manufacturer. Yes, the parts list forms an integral part of the instructions and no, they don't have to gift you that either.

Yes you can get a free parts list for Lego sets, which is part of them publishing instructions for free. No, it's not the same nor particularly relevant.

Yes you get a free parts list on rebrickable since of course every afol needs to check his stock to see if he's close to having enough parts, before buying instructions. No, it's not the same nor particularly relevant.

We don't get to tell CaDA how to do its business. If we want their copyrighted material (instructions or parts lists which form part thereof) we can pay money for it. Is that less generous than Lego? Yes, it is. But still, you can buy this kit with a Bluetooth box and 4 motors for around half the cost of an equivalent static Lego supercar. I think CaDA is generous enough.

For my part, I've now ordered the set and am really looking forward to be building it. Of course I'll report back with my findings. You can expect an honest review, if nothing else everyone here will have noted I don't hold my words !

[astyanax]

2 hours ago, daveysbricks said:

Would it be ok for an individual to create a virtual model of say, a LoxLego creation, and distribute it without the permission of the original creator?

That's a fair question. In the described context, where the virtual model creator had only access to free and publicly available information, some seem to lean toward "yes". But in the LoxLego case, no-one actually does this, because a service is offered that already satisfies the needs of this person: he can buy the instructions without the bricks, for less money than his time building the virtual model is worth. So to me, the question seems moot.

On the other hand, with the 488 Pista model, there is currently no way to buy instructions without bricks. If this is a gap in the market, some will want to fill it (which may or may not be at the expense of CaDA/Bruno).

Also, I think there is a meaningful distinction between instructions and virtual model. If a virtual model lacks tags for rotation, callouts, etc., it is -- I think -- not on par with instructions, in the sense that it would still take effort & experience working with CAD software to build the model. Such a virtual model may not constitute a step beyond the high-detail speedbuild. (The only thing it makes easier is extracting the parts list...)

[XenoRad]

From what I've seen I really like this model and have placed an order. The box it comes in looks cool also. Hopefully it will arrive safely and by Christmas I'll be either building or have already built this.

Otherwise I believe we're spending way too much time splitting hairs here on legality and morality, but since plenty of us are very interested in getting this perhaps it's understandable.

Here's my take: The IP belongs to the designer, Bruno. The right to monetize the IP and sell sets on it belongs to CaDA. All other legal aspects or their contract are unknown to us and there's also national and international law protecting both IPs and contracts. Bruno hasn't released the full instructions because of the aspects of the deal he made. Yes, there may be videos showing the building process, there is even a 3D model. Some people have the original instructions. It's up to them to share these or not and the consequences, whichever they may be, will also be on them.

So if someone has the instructions and decides to share them in part or in full or share a reverse-engineered copy, a 3D-model or just post a video detailing a step by step building process - then it's up to them. We can't know beforehand all of the consequences that will derive from that and analogies will only take us so far.

Personally I think the product as it's being sold is worth it and have decided to go about it the most practical way I could - to buy it outright. We'll see whether I made the right call or not.

Hopefully some time from now this thread will give way towards discussions on the design and of the inevitable modifications some of us will make. That's the beauty of this hobby - building and sharing ideas.

[Robo-Knight]

I'd rather build iit with real Lego than Cada tbh.

[thekoRngear]

No need for ALF 35 mins building vid. This guy just literally built it in real time 

 

[AFOLegofan66]

Just building this car now. I must say it is a piece of art when finished! There will be no taking apart of this car. I’ll post photos when done.

[amorti]

Mine arrived on Saturday, I built section A last night. Nice build so far, no surprises, no problems. 

[astyanax]

On 11/2/2020 at 6:06 AM, thekoRngear said:

No need for ALF 35 mins building vid. This guy just literally built it in real time

Well, there ya go. He just posted the last part. Skip to 1:47:30 to see the inventory...

 

Also, this is the first video I see where the builder manages to find a way to close the hood...

[Bartybum]

19 hours ago, amorti said:

Mine arrived on Saturday, I built section A last night. Nice build so far, no surprises, no problems. 

Any tolerancing issues?

[amorti]

3 hours ago, Bartybum said:

Any tolerancing issues?

I've nearly finished instruction book 2 of 6. I'd love to say zero issues, but I can't.

• I've had my tiny files out to smooth "casting half" marks from inside the differential housing, and the backs of the wheel hubs.
• There are some #2 connectors which are a little loose, but I've not yet found anything as bad as shown on one of the reviews where they could fall right off an axle.
• #22961 in red is a poor colour match. Everything else is very good.

On the positive side, I do believe CaDA have improved their pins, or liftarms, or both. The pin/axles actually seem good, I've yet to find one that was noticeably loose. The pins in this model go in very nicely, with a really satisfying "click" just like Lego, but which is mostly absent from MouldKing (GoBricks) pins, probably because they are slightly tighter in the hole. The flip side is MouldKing pins give a really solid connection, notably tighter than Lego or CaDA.

The metal universal joints are better than the ones supplied by MouldKing. They'll hold anything they need to. Not sure if normal old type CV joints into the wheel hubs will also be secure, time will tell. 

The electrical parts all work. The drive motors are definitely stronger and faster than Lego, although I'll have to ask you to take my word as I don't have the equipment to measure that. The servos don't have proportional steering (tested on buwizz), but if you short-tap the button they will return without going to the end stop, which many Chinese servos won't do. Actually I'm planning on taking one which always goes the whole way to +/-90^ before returning to zero, to use for the gear selector.

The instructions are really good.

• Nearly everything is put together as a module  with its own detailed instructions and then added to the model. This is a real benefit on a big model where the alternative is to build it on the model in which case the picture is often too small to read well.
• CaDA used to grey out completed steps, they've not done that in this manual and it's a big improvement, and relief.

Edited November 3, 2020 by amorti

[astyanax]

@amorti thanks for your honest thoughts. Question: those red 2L pins, are they different from the black ones? Maybe they're frictionless? They seem to be used whenever a flex axle needs to be inserted into a pin. Won't the flex axles fit into the black pins?

[LvdH]

33 minutes ago, astyanax said:

@amorti thanks for your honest thoughts. Question: those red 2L pins, are they different from the black ones? Maybe they're frictionless? They seem to be used whenever a flex axle needs to be inserted into a pin. Won't the flex axles fit into the black pins?

They are indeed required to insert a bar or soft axle into the pin. The standard cada pin probably doesn’t quite fit, like LEGO’s 3L friction pin. 

[amorti]

@astyanax

16 minutes ago, LvdH said:

They are indeed required to insert a bar or soft axle into the pin. The standard cada pin probably doesn’t quite fit, like LEGO’s 3L friction pin. 

I totally hadn't spotted this!

The normal black 2L and 3L pins, also the dbg 2L + 1 axle pins all have a rectangular hole in the end which doesn't accept a soft axle. They do however fit very nicely in the pliers of the new CaDA Technic deconstruction tool.

Maybe that explains the improvement I've noticed in CaDA pin quality - looks like it's not psychosomatic, they really have changed the design.

[amorti]

@brunojj1 I don't know if it's a feature or a bug, but the seats rock freely back and forth. I decided to pin them steady.

Basic idea, with a lbg connector for visibility.

You have to clip the seat in, then push the pin with bush in.

Then slide the 2L axle in. The CaDA tool is perfect for that. (Click to go large and see what I'm talking about)

 

I also changed the steering wheel axle for a 5.5er. That way even if you use the metal universal joint, the steering wheel can't fall out.

 

Can we do a pimp my Pista thread? Ofc it can't become an instruction set, but I'm an incorrigible tinkerer and I like to share what comes out of that.

Edited November 6, 2020 by amorti

[thekoRngear]

Pimp up My Pista B-Models anything is for sure appreciated. For such Supercar Pimping Up actually seems Inevitable.

[amorti]

1 hour ago, thekoRngear said:

Pimp up My Pista B-Models anything is for sure appreciated. For such Supercar Pimping Up actually seems Inevitable.

Problem is, other than the fixes from bruno himself, what I've put above, and if anyone wanted/needed a guide to fitting the extra motors and converting to 2* buwizz (it's really obvious btw) I don't think that this model needs any improvement.

Just a shame CaDA only gives you two motors, as it could use the 3rd and 4th to pull top gear. That said, maybe it's better this way? You can't comfortably pull away in 4th gear, so you have to go through the gears even if you just use it as a two speed box and toggle between 1&4. What's so bad about that?

Still, I'd be interested in anything any of the other builders has found.

[amorti]

If you can live without the rear brake caliper, you can use 3L pins to secure the rear hubs. Not so much an improvement as an alternative option, but could become an improvement if you then reinstated the caliper.

[astyanax]

4 hours ago, amorti said:

Still, I'd be interested in anything any of the other builders has found.

I've found a couple of things, all of them very minor, and probably debatable. I'm still about 2 weeks away from starting the real build (need to disassemble my red-black Chiron for parts) so take these mods with a grain of salt, as they've not been tested for real.

Lets first consider the side:

The above shows a few mods I'm planning:

• Yellow shield between front wheel and door, as a hint at the Ferrari logo.
• C-pillar made with pieces available from TLG.
• Rear wheel arch filled up a bit more, using System parts.
• Clean "side skirt" (don't know the proper English word) using black 16L axle.

Next let's consider the rear:

The above shows an alternative connection for the brake lights (the trans-red 4L bars) -- clean and unobstructed. My plans for the exhausts may not be to everyone's liking, but I think this looks more realistic.

Finally, let's take off the roof and doors and consider the interior:

• Since I don't have the stickers, I've attempted to create a brick-built dashboard.
• I've extended the red trim across the entire width (Bruno only added the red 7L flex axle on the passenger side).
• Here I've also copied an idea I spotted in photos earlier in this thread, namely to better maintain the curve of the bottom of the windshield, by adding 1x1 round plates with hole to the ends of the red 19L flex axle.

[amorti]

1 hour ago, astyanax said:

 

• Yellow shield between front wheel and door, as a hint at the Ferrari logo.

That's nice, good shout. However I think the wheel could hit it and system parts tend to fall right off at that point. Maybe just lose the Bionicle tooth that normally lives there and put the shield? Idk.

• C-pillar made with pieces available from TLG.

I guess you're deleting those 2L, err, thick beams? The CaDA part is good but that's also good if you want purity. I can't think what else CaDA used that isn't available from TLG. Maybe some piece that's not there in that colour?

• Rear wheel arch filled up a bit more, using System parts.

I'd be leery of those pieces obstructing the wheel when the suspension moves, or just falling off. Other than that, looks good.

• Clean "side skirt" (don't know the proper English word) using black 16L axle.

Side skirt is what I'd call it too. Bruno has said somewhere on YouTube that this is only done as it is due to parts options from CaDA. I'm not sure about a 16 though, as I can't see a good way to make the front end an axle hole.

alternative connection for the brake lights (the trans-red 4L bars) -- clean and unobstructed.

yes, not bad at all. The original design leaves those seat panels connected at only one end which is the kind of thing I consider a necessary evil in building supercar bodywork. Better if it doesn't have to be.

My plans for the exhausts may not be to everyone's liking, but I think this looks more realistic.

As you say this one is personal taste, I have nothing against the original parts used.

 

• I've extended the red trim across the entire width (Bruno only added the red 7L flex axle on the passenger side).

If you could make it a flowing line I'd be in, but I'm not so sure about the red tiles in the middle, red bar on the left, and red flex axle on the right all trying to describe the same thickness line. For me it can stay as it is.

• Here I've also copied an idea I spotted in photos earlier in this thread, namely to better maintain the curve of the bottom of the windshield, by adding 1x1 round plates with hole to the ends of the red 19L flex axle.

Not bad but also not really necessary. I've found the hose ends hit the hole in the panel and keep themselves pretty close to the clearance you've given them anyway.

Good stuff ?

As you say I think a lot is personal taste but I don't think any is a complete miss.

This also shows once more our different interests in terms of tinkering... My heart is definitely not in the bodywork!

Edited November 8, 2020 by amorti

[amorti]

Looks so much nicer with black Porsche wheels, than what CaDA chose.

[astyanax]

49 minutes ago, amorti said:

• Yellow shield between front wheel and door, as a hint at the Ferrari logo. 

That's nice, good shout. However I think the wheel could hit it and system parts tend to fall right off at that point. Maybe just lose the Bionicle tooth that normally lives there and put the shield? Idk.

• Rear wheel arch filled up a bit more, using System parts.

I'd be leery of those pieces obstructing the wheel when the suspension moves, or just falling off. Other than that, looks good.

This is something the physical build will show. :)

50 minutes ago, amorti said:

• C-pillar made with pieces available from TLG. 

I guess you're deleting those 2L, err, thick beams? The CaDA part is good but that's also good if you want purity. I can't think what else CaDA used that isn't available from TLG. Maybe some piece that's not there in that colour?

It's about part 15100 being used in red.

53 minutes ago, amorti said:

• Clean "side skirt" (don't know the proper English word) using black 16L axle.

Side skirt is what I'd call it too. Bruno has said somewhere on YouTube that this is only done as it is due to parts options from CaDA. I'm not sure about a 16 though, as I can't see a good way to make the front end an axle hole.

The front end doesn't need to be an axle hole if the rear end holds it tightly. If it's a bit loose, I'd just add a (black) bush near the front end.

56 minutes ago, amorti said:

• I've extended the red trim across the entire width (Bruno only added the red 7L flex axle on the passenger side).

If you could make it a flowing line I'd be in, but I'm not so sure about the red tiles in the middle, red bar on the left, and red flex axle on the right all trying to describe the same thickness line. For me it can stay as it is.

Indeed, it's hard to replicate a subtle detail in a non-exaggerated way.

57 minutes ago, amorti said:

This also shows once more our different interests in terms of tinkering... My heart is definitely not in the bodywork!

LOL If it's the drivetrain you're referring to, I don't really consider the additional motors a mod, since it was clearly in Bruno's masterplan already. Anyway, here's how I plan to incorporate them:

[amorti]

I'm half tempted to make the side skirt from a continuous row of 2L axle or pin spacers. Pin spacers might be a little thick but would make it consistent over the whole length and you could add strategically placed 15100 connectors along the length of the floor panel for support.

I had no idea 15100 wasn't available from TLG in red! I guess the 2021 Ferrari from Lego will change that but they won't be cheap.

The drivetrain doesn't need any mods, except those motors reinstating. The transmission is already brilliant.

Motor mounts look sturdy. Maybe over engineered, but they're a swine to get back to once it's complete, so probably better that way. I'm looking to get another pair of CaDA motors so (if I find them) I will have that pain to come. Probably use your design to mount them, if that day comes.

Edited November 8, 2020 by amorti

[LvdH]

3 hours ago, astyanax said:

It's about part 15100 being used in red.

In the original design of Bruno it is really similar to your (and my) version. No idea why they changed it though. None of the red 15100 are really required either.

[amorti]

29 minutes ago, LvdH said:

In the original design of Bruno it is really similar to your (and my) version. No idea why they changed it though. None of the red 15100 are really required either.

I think the CaDA version is an improvement, as the longer soft hose has less tendency to pull out. It also holds the curve nicely.

If you don't have red 15100 connectors though, the other solution will also work.

Maybe CaDA learned a lesson from the centenario about restricting themselves to pieces in the TLG parts catalogue? I reckon they'd have sold more in one of the other colours t_lego has shown, especially black and yellow.

[astyanax]

On 11/6/2020 at 11:26 PM, amorti said:

@brunojj1 I don't know if it's a feature or a bug, but the seats rock freely back and forth. I decided to pin them steady.

I understand your idea, but it looks like it would be very hard to disassemble...

Here's a very simple alternative, which should allow minimal space for rocking: