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DonRamon1981

Realistic.... unrealistic....

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Posted (edited)

Hi all...

Again and again I see how many people think the flag of the Brickbeard's Bounty is looking childish unrealistic... But the opposite is the case! The famous jolly Roger was only one flag not more often used than other pirates flags, just became famous because of the entertainment industry.

As I studied and am studying history all my life as it is a big passion if mine. 

Pirates had even more childish or strange flags than most of you can imagine...

I took some pictures of my history books for y'all, with some informations many of you maybe did not know...

Most pirate flags was... RED! Exactly. Black came in a short period in the Caribbean during the Golden Age of Pirates. The name "Jolly Roger" came from French and meant: Joli Rouge (beautiful red!)

Yes Jolly Roger is a red flag in original, and the most common pirate flag was this, looks like y'all hated Brickbeards Flag just in red:

20190828-104907.jpg

But if some think that is strange or childish... look what kind of pirate flags really was shown during the Golden Age:

20190828-104845.jpg

20190828-104812.jpg

The more real flags you search in history books, the more you realise... childish crazy flags was the normal thing, with that what you all know as Jolly Roger, was just use by a few.

So by flags... The more childish crazy or whatever it looks like, that is realistic! So in this case Brickbeard's Flag is way more realistic than any other Lego Pirate Flags....! But mostly the pirates went to represent their countries flag. As most pirates has been British, the had the English, later British Flag on, just revealing the pirate flag before the attack came. The goal was to come close to the other ship.

Ok, the next thing probably most of you already knew. Pirates never had big ships, big guns and never fought or won against war ships (not alone... together with other nations warships yes but then they was already equipped by the official navy).

The reason why pirates never had big ships, big canons and even pistols been rare is quite simple.

Big canons or big ships has been just way too expensive and really hard to buy if you was a regular guy, for a pirate it was really hard. Just a handful of cannons had been taken from destroyed warships after wars between nations. But that was a handful of cannons for the pirates in hundred of years. But the most important thing is they did not even want to have that. Big cannons makes you slower, need expensive cannon balls, and destroys the other ships. And that's what pirates always tried to avoid. They want to rob the trade ships not sunk them, cause then all the gold or whatever they carry is lost forever, in that times.

Did you know that pirates captain's been elected and had only total command during battles? 

Did you know that kids and women was not allowed on pirate ships (As some exceptions by some rare lady pirates but that been historical exceptions).... so a child on board like Will in the story of the Golden Medaillion... never been like that. 

The captain being a dictator commanding his Crew also off the ship? Impossible. 

But now we come to the battles... As like you already know pirates had small ships without cannons, you know how they made their battles? That is the most interesting part in my opinion. 

They went with their homeland flag as close as they could get to the trade ship. Then? Revealing the pirate flag they screamed, after crazy all kind of things to just scare the others... and then it was two possible ways:

The Crew of the trade ship immediately surrenders, nobody will be harmed, nobody will be injured or killed. The pirates will take the goods and go away. Often people who was treated bad on ships just moved on with the pirates. Doctors and stuff being taken if needed.

If a ship wanted to fight off the pirates.... Then it get really bad!

The small cannons was just there to destroy the sails of the trade ships, then they had to enter it. They had some real scary tactics. They thrown with their small cannons often something like ninja stars, don't know the English name, here is a picture from one of the books:

20190828-111411.jpg

That was a real scary weapon. The whole deck was full of that, and even if you had shoes on you got seriously injured by stepping on it. The pirates practiced to fight not stepping on that.

Even the trade ships had mostly been bigger than pirate ships. But the decision of fight or not, was also a decision of life or death. 

If a ship decided to fight, the pirates left No survivors! That was a strict rule to motivate future ships to give all goods surrendering immediately and surviving without harm. So 99% of all pirate routes had been like that, the people just immediately surrender to not get killed. It worked.

Because some trade ships had cannons and could fight, it wasn't sure that the pirates would win every battle against trade ships, so it was a win win for both sides to surrender...

How did the pirates stop... well I read about a lot of famous pirates. Edward Teach "Blackbeard", he put some fired cigars and other stuff in his hairs before a attack... like you heard, being or looking scary was more important than anything else... his end? An English Warship in 1718 (he was aged 38)

One of the most successful pirates in history: Bartholomew Roberts, in various books it says he attacked between 300 and 400 ships successfully. His End... an English Warship...

The very few female pirate captains... Anne Bonny and Mary Read? You know already the End came in 1721.

Other famous pirates just been taken to duty for the navy or government and guess what, started to fight piracy! Like Henry Morgan, a classical pirate against Spanish trade ships he became Vice Gouvernor of Jamaica for the British and was a hardliner then against piracy.

(I think everybody knows about Sir Francis Drake so I let him out as he was way before that golden age)

That Golden Age was a real short period. It "started" in the beginning of the 18th century (1700) being already over between 1720 and 1725. The British realised piracy harms their trade and as sometime the trade really was struck and almost stopped, the British end that golden age very quick.

By the way also an interesting fact. Do you think the big warships fired to the pirates? The real big warships did not waste expensive cannon balls for that, they often just rammed them. 

Smaller Warships had to fight them but also that being a problem and the end for most pirate ships that could not flew quick enough.

I know in an age where Lego is making big pirate ships (ok in 1980s and 90s) and Pirates of the Caribbean showing big pirate ships fighting British war ships too... most of that is more unrealistic than it's ever get. The romantic approach of Pirates simply never been. 

But that was just pirates in the Caribbean in the Golden Age, most pirates was really different. Line the Islamic pirates in the middle sea, the Vikings had pirates too. Piracy has need mostly been a supported part for warfare to weaken the enemy by hitting their Trade ships or support warships too, pirates had excellent navigation skills and been great sailors. 

Maybe some of you liked the read about real pirates. I love to read history, as I think the most interesting and funny things real happen in real life... and most of that being a show they already been good actors just to scare, to rob without fighting.

51244649-56a58a9d5f9b58b7d0dd4cf0.jpg(Captain Blackbeard, real name Edward Teach 1680 - 1718)

Edited by DonRamon1981

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Wow! I only glanced over the text at first, but this will go into favourites for future study. There is some great stuff in here, thanks for taking the time to compile this. Well done! :thumbup:

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Thanks appreciate that.

If someone have an idea how to imitate those "ninja stars" for pirates stuff would be cool, I mean in Lego of course 🤣

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I read something different about the colours of flags. Black (whether it had the skull and cross bones or not) meant that they were going to attack but if the other ship surrendered then mercy would be shown so long as they did not fight back or try to flee. Whereas if they removed the black flag and flew red instead, it meant that they were then going to show no mercy. They also held national flags to fool other ships into believing they were allies.

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15 minutes ago, DonRamon1981 said:

If someone have an idea how to imitate those "ninja stars" for pirates stuff would be cool, I mean in Lego of course 🤣

I would consider this 1x1 slope to be a reasonable approximation. Not ideal, but close enough for me. Black or grey would work, and it is also available in different metallics.

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Sorry to correct you none of that ever happened like that

RED was the common pirate flag for a long time.

The attack never came by what flag they shown, it was always their country flag waving on pirate ships to not being identified as that by warships.

Here are some facts but as you are too lazy to read real history books with evidence showing, translate it for yourself. 

It's not my mission to teach anybody. You can also believe that the earth is flat if you want to. 

20190828-124300.jpg

20190828-124239.jpg

20190828-124155.jpg

Darnok can also translate that for you.

But like I said you can believe whatever you want. I shown you just the facts how it was

8 minutes ago, Darnok said:

I would consider this 1x1 slope to be a reasonable approximation. Not ideal, but close enough for me. Black or grey would work, and it is also available in different metallics.

Hm could work too. Or that "Enterhaken" stuff what is holding the cargo net at Brickbeard's Bounty...?

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Some more pirate flags from the Golden Age:

The mentioned Edward Teach aka Blackbeard had this flag, already shown you now in better quality:

pirate-flag-of-edward-teach-blackbeard.p

The elegant and probably most successfull pirate Bartholomew Roberts:

pirate-flag-of-bartholomew-roberts.png

Captain Walter Kennedy:

pirate-flag-of-walter-kennedy.png
image hosting

Captain Christopher Moody:

pirate-flag-of-christopher-moody.png image hosting

Captain John Quelch... his looked really weird, today I would say it looks like an Alien 🤣

pirate-flag-of-john-quelch.png
image hosting

 

And the famous flag Lego and Hollywood is using, he was ONLY the second pirate to use this kind of flag:

2000px-Flag-of-Edward-England-svg.png

Edward England also died in 1721 (In Madagascar alone and poor) and been three years a pirate captain (1717 to 1720). It sound a short time but not many pirates lived up more than  that...

 

Some had captains also changed the flag after a while...

bartholomew-roberts-pirate-flag-sticker-

That's one of my favourites :laugh_hard:

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That's an interesting post! Thank you for sharing, these are very fascinating facts, thank you!
I didn't know anything about pirate history but you make me wanting to know more. I will still be interested by the "hollywood" vision about it, but knowing a bit of history surely will make me understand better the line between reality and fantasy.
The blackbeard story cracked me up, is awesome!

Question for you, knowing everything you know about pirates, how do you approach all the movies/stories and even LEGO sets? 
Do you still love them? 

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Posted (edited)

I know many people, books (novels) and articles writes a lot of stuff. But they are what they are novels, fairy tales and all that.

The book about piracy 1724 by Charles Johnson started the wrong romantic approach. It was a novel full of fiction to sell well. It fast became a "historical" book for some, but in the end it is what it is, a novel.

Especially in the entertainment industry false and romantic believes are way more fascinating but they don't show any truth. 

So if you want to read real history, don't try to read Wikipedia or articles from people that never studied history or anything like that. 

There is a very good example what a single book can do, and you all can Google and read about this fairy tale, it's the same with pirates and flags why so many people have simply no clue, even if you can go to a library and read by yourself... But laziness is normal today...

In Germany a lot of Germans believe that German almost became the language in the US... total nonsense but for real, they also have a "book" proven it. But it is like with the pirates. That novel written that stuff came in 1847 from Franz von Löhers, there he claims that there was a poll about the language to use when the US won their independence, and English won just by one vote of a German called Muhlenberg...

Well that story is... nonsense as there hasn't been any poll or anything like that about what language the US should use, as there wasn't a question about that being a former English Colony. Until today there is no DE JURE language of the US. It is just DE FACTO English. Some states though did it now to make English DE JURE as the language to use. But in the United States as a whole it is not needed and never done. 

This vote never happened. But this legend was so good for the Nazis in the second world war, they made it famous in Germany with a bunch of Germans walking around and really believing that? Instead of trying to read real history.

In the University or College o e of the first things you learn is what kind of book, or articles and stuff are real history and what not. Novels are definitely never history books! As Wikipedia too, you will fail with every work using one of that as historical reference.

But even the Germans (actually the father of my wife) still believes why he wants, as he is German  and they are the best in everything anyway... just an example. You can read real history or believe what non historical references tell you. It's up to you I don't care. But just an good example of how mixed up history can be by using novels and other non historical references... and to the americans: it's real a lot of Germans here at the family of my wife really  believe that!

 

 

For me... I also love Pirates of The Caribbean movie and BSB is one of my favourites of all time I  Lego... a big pirate ship.

Just because history is one side of it, I still love the Hollywood Romantic Version of it! Because it's way more exciting (probably the reason for that development)

P.S. for me and my son: playing realistic is really boring 

Offtopic:

For any who wants to read about that stuff just Google "Muhlenberg Legend" for more information. You would not believe how many people in Germany thinks that's real...

For the lazy:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhlenberg_legend

I have read it and it's correct... 

But let's get back to topic, historical  funny pirate flags 😊

 

Edited by DonRamon1981

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Posted (edited)

Wow, thanks so much for posting this! I love reading any kind of history whenever I have the time, so this post was absolutely fantastic for me! I never heard about the spikes that they'd shoot out of the small cannons so I find that the most fascinating. The flags were also very interesting. I've seen a few of those, but some of the others I haven't were so strange (mainly Captain John Quelch's). 

I thoroughly enjoyed this entire post, and it has made my morning a great one so thank you very much for posting this! 

Edited by The Neighborhood Merchant

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Thanks. 

And if anybody have or found a strange pirate flag he want to share, show it. It looks like every pirate wanted to be creative and be recognized by their own flag.

I agree that Quelch Flag is really weird :grin:

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The English language Wikipedia article on the Jolly Roger also has a lot of information about historical pirate flags (including a few you already posted):  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jolly_Roger

Also of interesting note is that the version flown by "Calico Jack" Rackham is flown from US Navy warships during line crossing ceremonies to signify that "King Neptune's" court is in session...
 

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Posted (edited)

P.S. another small but interesting fact. Pirates did NOT made their victims walk the plank. Like I mentioned. Pirates usually tried to avoid killing people, they wanted to just scare them and made them surrender, leaving everybody alive.

Bartholomew Roberts for example, did one single person in his whole life walk the plank. For all other pirates I mentioned there are no records or mentioned walking down the plank at all. That practice appeared also more in Novels in the 19th century. 

Edited by DonRamon1981

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Posted (edited)

Not a "real" pirate ship but even the Tampa Bay Buccaneers uses a red pirate flag and sails for their pirate ship inside the stands of their NFL Stadium, with similar "bad look" like Legos Brickbeard's Bounty... Just in traditional pirate red.

o.jpg pic uploade

Funny... But I am a Houston Texans fan so I don't really care, but a nice move anyway.

 

Edited by DonRamon1981

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On 8/28/2019 at 11:47 AM, DonRamon1981 said:

Here are some facts but as you are too lazy to read real history books with evidence showing, translate it for yourself. 

 

Why are you calling me lazy? History books differ in what is reported, as there are often many different sources.

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Posted (edited)

I explained what kind of "history" books causes problems because they aren't history books. You quoted from a novel about pirates hat had zero truth, actually that flag by attack or not thing is same legend with zero truth in it like the Muhlenberg thing that German almost became official language in the US. Also there people can refer "history books" that was written there. But if you are not able or not willing to search what kind of refernece is actual history reference and which a simple legends novels and other stuff... go on like I said, you can also believe that the earth is flat, there are books about it too! Same like with the other it doesn't change the fact that it's simply not true. And if you are not willing to really invest time and money to do research on yourself, yes than I rather call you lazy because I still think you a smart person. 

...P.S. I had similar problems before I learned how to recognize what are references that I can use and what not. Novels, Wikipedia, and all kind of stuff are simple not reference. It is that when you use them as reference in any kind of university or college work you immediately fail.

So I think yeah you are smart but did not research enough what kind of references are usable and actually history and what are legends novels or other stuff ;-)

Like I said. Before i learned how to do it I was ok with the inofs I read somewhere and believed it... 

Edited by DonRamon1981

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@DonRamon, that item with the spines you wanted translation for the name of is called a "Caltrop" in English and date back to late antiquity (at least to the Roman Empire).  The same (or at least very nearly identical) area of denial weapons were developed possibly independently in the Far East, because they had them in Japan & called them "Tetsubishi".  And it's funny you called them "Ninja Stars" because the Japanese version was, in fact, used by ninja.

 

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5 hours ago, Laura Beinbrech said:

@DonRamon, that item with the spines you wanted translation for the name of is called a "Caltrop" in English and date back to late antiquity (at least to the Roman Empire).  The same (or at least very nearly identical) area of denial weapons were developed possibly independently in the Far East, because they had them in Japan & called them "Tetsubishi".  And it's funny you called them "Ninja Stars" because the Japanese version was, in fact, used by ninja.

 

Really cool, didn't know that 

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On 8/28/2019 at 11:39 AM, DonRamon1981 said:

The name "Jolly Roger" came from French and meant: Joli Rouge (beautiful red!)

Interesting discussion.

The Wikipedia article definitely questions this statement, though.

"It is sometimes claimed that the term derives from "Joli Rouge" ("Pretty Red") in reference to a red flag used by French privateers. This hypothesis is considered a false etymology, as the phrase "Joli Rouge" in reference to a pirate flag does not appear in any historical sources.[6]"

6"Jolly Roger, n.". OED Online. Oxford University Press. June 2016.

On 8/28/2019 at 11:39 AM, DonRamon1981 said:

Most pirate flags was... RED!

Well, as far as I can tell, French privateers were credited with using red flags, but most of the examples shown in this thread are obviously black, so I am not sure I accept the statements above. It would seem that at least a lot of them were black.

On 8/28/2019 at 12:30 PM, MAB said:

I read something different about the colours of flags. Black (whether it had the skull and cross bones or not) meant that they were going to attack but if the other ship surrendered then mercy would be shown so long as they did not fight back or try to flee. Whereas if they removed the black flag and flew red instead, it meant that they were then going to show no mercy. They also held national flags to fool other ships into believing they were allies. 

Interesting - I have seen some variation on this, although not the distinction between black and red. Can you remember where you saw this?

On 8/28/2019 at 12:47 PM, DonRamon1981 said:

Here are some facts but as you are too lazy to read real history books with evidence showing, translate it for yourself.  

There is nothing wrong with Wikipedia - but as with any other source, you need to approach it critically and check its source material. No, of course you cannot use it for academic papers, but your pictures of what mostly looks like pages from a children's book doesn't exactly fill me with confidence in its legitimacy either. :P

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There ate pictures from history books, painted as there was no photos back then there are paintings. 

And sorry but nothing wrong with Wikipedia? Wikipedia everybody writes whatever they want As everybody is able to edit that and wrote. No university or colleague will allow you to use this as reference that's a fact! 

And also the other facts, I picked the black flags from the Golden Age, but like I said you can believe that the earth is flat too, provided historical facts and if y'all try to quote Wikipedia... sorry for you but doesn't change any historical facts by you don't believing it.

I am not here to teach, like I said if you did not study history and if you not willing to search in libraries and real history books it's on not my problem.

You can believe what you want ;-) 

 

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1 hour ago, DonRamon1981 said:

And sorry but nothing wrong with Wikipedia? Wikipedia everybody writes whatever they want As everybody is able to edit that and wrote. No university or colleague will allow you to use this as reference that's a fact!  

Indeed. I know how it works. I would never use it for a university paper (just like I wouldn't use pictures from some book posted on the interwebs ;)), but it is making a lot of knowledge easily accessible for everyone, and I find that it is generally of high quality. In my experience, erroneous information is rare and quickly corrected. On most articles, you will find a multitude of citations to support their claims.

But that is a personal opinion, and you are welcome to form your own.

I'd love to hear your considered  position on some of the opposing statements, preferably with other arguments than calling people lazy, discarding their sources, or putting them in category with people who believe the earth is flat.

Remember that in communication on the Internet, it is important to be polite and constructive, as one can quickly come across as an entitled, arrogant asshat; and that conflicts can quickly escalate, as all the nonverbal communication is lost :)

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Sorry but historical facts and opinions are two different things. But like I said do what you want and believe what you want. I provided facts from real history, if you still want to believe some different it's up too you. 

Doesn't change how history was anyway. For me this discussion is over cause it's senseless in my eyes then;-)

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@DonRamon1981, if you're going to make a big deal about sources you should begin by citing your own sources.  

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I posted pictures from history books and did not quote will nonsense.

Typical internet... do what you wanna do I stop posting any historical documents because y'all want to believewhat you want anyway. 

Stop trolling on the internet and go to a real library.

P.S. for Darnok as he is from Berlin, you can visit Bundeszentrale für Politische Bildung here. History books from all eras for good price, there you can read all real historical documents.

For all other, I won't waste my time anymore 

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There are some interesting theories here. They are by no means academic sources, but interesting for further investigation:

https://www.thevintagenews.com/2016/11/27/skull-and-crossbones-the-history-of-the-jolly-roger-flag/

https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,,-1173,00.html

Old Roger, a term for the devil, it seems, is another possible origin.

The "Joli Rogue" seems only to be retrospectively suggested, as not being mentioned in sources from the time. At least as far as I can see.

 

10 minutes ago, DonRamon1981 said:

history books 

Can you perhaps quote them?

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