Suburbia - Confirmation/Discussion

[Jedi master Brick]

Let's continue I think. The game has been great, but I think the choice of going to the police station 3 times boarded some people. I think I need to post more so I am sorry

[Bob]

I care, and so there's my feedback. Sorry it's just a rant back, but I think that's what you called for.

The fact that you've taken the time to respond the each of my points in the argument shows that you do indeed care, and that makes me happy.

There are clues in each and every location. You specifically referenced the CCTV Footage from outside the firehouse. I can't outright show an entire person, and condemn them to losing the game. That would be irresponsible on my part completely. In this game, I'm not supposed to give you the culprit, I'm supposed to cleverly lay out clues for you to find said criminal.

There are certain locations that you simply did not need to go to, however at the same time there are locations that you should have gone to. Since the game is going on, the only thing I'll say is that the police station was your best stop, however did it really need to be drawn out over the course of three chapters?

What is this all about? Grouping an argument like this in the a post where you're having a go at the rest of us makes it look like you're blaming us and that doesn't seem fair at all. If you didn't want newbies or mere Counts and below in your game, you shouldn't have accepted us. Take this up with Dragonator in a PM; don't make a scene.

I really should have, but most of my PM's to him aren't really responded to and I wasn't in a good state of mind when I was posting this. I specifically did want Counts and new players in this game; my last game was made up of them. However, at the same time, I would have liked for other more experienced players to be mixed in with them. There were initially 16 players, as stated, so with a healthy mix this game could have been interesting.

Alright, this may be a bit of fun, but I think that messing about like that will only mess up the investigation. Having someone burning down a park or attacking someone with a baseball bat just puts you at the top of the murder suspect list in my eyes, when all the were doing is 'thinking about the box'. I don't do that stuff in real life, so believe it or not, the first things to enter my mind when night rolls around isn't "I want to go next door and throw bins through the window"!

This isn't real life though. Truth be told, these actions are supposed to make this game at least somewhat interesting at night. The whole Fugazi Fire Scene was, at the most part, interesting, and it got people to participate more. Marcus' attack was interesting and sparked participation. I hope you're starting to see a trend here; these actions are primarily used to try and get participation up. I didn't say you couldn't do investigative stuff. When Peanuts watched Fugazi throw stuff away, that was certainly an informative action.

I'm not trying to argue back at you, since I know that everything you're saying is out of kindness and you're obviously pissed off that I grouped everyone together. When writing this rant I was airing everything bad that I was thinking of at the time, without thinking of the repercussions. It's a terrible state of feeling that psychologically doesn't happen that often to me. I'm not trying to offend anyone, since it is just a game, but I just wanted everyone to see how I felt.

[Professor Flitwick]

Mr. Jack Montgomery --- Mrlegoninja: 1

Mrs. Julia Montgomery --- Dannylonglegs: 0

Jeremy Montgomery --- ADHO15: 3

Mrs. Sarah Jordan --- Brickdoctor: 4

Mr. Winston Robertson --- Rumble Strike: 3

Amber Robertson --- Peanuts: 5

Officer Steven Jackson --- Professor Flitwick: Exempt 

Ashley Baker --- K-nut: Exempt

Marcus Baker --- CallMePieOrDie: Exempt 

Officer Ryan Hutch --- badboytje88: 0

Mr. James Swanson --- CorneliusMurdock: 6

Robbie Swanson --- Jedi master Brick: 2

Deputy Chief Jackie Scott --- Fugazi: 7

Mayor Bob or various NPC's I play --- Bob_ : 12

What does this tell you? Two people haven't even posted today. 

Many players, and I plead guilty to this, come into a thread, and (for this example, say we're interviewing a suspect) ask:

Where were they the night of the murder?

Did they know the chief well?

Did they see the chief the day of his murder?

etc?

This leaves many players with nothing left to ask, leaving them to go without posting, or to just do something irrelevant to show they're participating.

1) You know your game is bad and frowned upon when the Games Moderator, a veteran that's been in every mafia and mystery game on this board, doesn't sign up. When I didn't get much of a "staff All-Star" turn out in Red Scare Mystery, I accepted it because I figured everyone had read Prohibition Mafia and assumed that I was a terrible host. However, I'd like to think I did a pretty good job on Red Scare Mystery. I received praise for it in the conclusion thread. So I was all smiles and happy when I put up the signup thread expecting the "All-Star's" to sign up for it. And none of them did. Not a single staff member. The only two fellows that did sign up are Fugazi and CorneliusMurdock, two novices at the start of Red Scare Mystery that emerged into great mystery players by the end. 

Bob, cast your mind back to Red Scare Mystery. Would you rather have Shadows and Dragonator, with their four posts per chapter, in place of Rumble Strick, or K-Nut? People put too much emphasises on ranks, and it's turning into Downton Abbey (if you haven't heard of it, lords and ladies live upstairs, servants like below ground, serving the upper class). Just because they have a high rank, or are a member of staff, doesn't mean that their participation level is going to be any higher or better than others.

And what if they had signed up? Would cralegoboy have been turned down? Would ADHO have had to find another game? Would I have been posting this as an observer, rather than a participant?

2) Player participation. This is a big one, and I believe I let it all out a few paragraphs ago, but I have so much built up rage and anger, so why not? Let me throw this right out here. Chapter Twelve of Red Scare Mystery had 18 pages. And that was after six months of rigorous game play. Chapter Two has six. Chapter One, the start of the freaking game, has 10. Can anyone explain this to me? I sure can't explain it.

As said above, some people can't join in the investigation, because there is nothing left to do. Another big factor here is that chapter twelve or RSM probably went on for longer than chapter one of Suburbia. We can make a hell of a lot more posts, and do a load more investigating, in a fortnight than we could in four days.

3) Miscellaneous Actions. Every even night I have had an action for myself. On Night Two, I beat up CallMePie with a bat. On Night Four, I burned down Fugazi's house. People don't understand these and I'm not sure why. You can do anything except kill someone. You could even kill yourself if you really wanted to. Break windows, throw trash cans, set up traps, burn down a tree, break the statues, do something other than "I'd like to follow player." This isn't a mafia game! Think outside the box! 

People like to play roles in role playing games. In Bloodbricks II, I played the Inuit with a thing for fish. In Mystical Castle, I played the sycophantic guard, who believed is superiors and his homeland could do no wrong. In Suburbia, I'm playing the honest, fun-loving cop, who is a devote fiance to his wife. I'm not playing an arsonist, nor a thief, nor a manic depressive. We're simply sticking to our roles.

4) Investigating. People are investigating in all the wrong places. The biggest and most glaring example of this is the three chapters you spent in the police station. THREE CHAPTERS! Argh! I think you've investigated five locations. Out of about 20. 

To reiterate what ADHO said, how do you expect us to know where to investigate, if we have no leads?

[Fugazi]

Right, you certainly deserve some feedback Bob.

But when you try to frustrate and anger the host with lack of participation, activeness, ignoring rules, ignoring clues, ignoring just about everything that I've played out, then the host will make your lives miserable.

So far this game has been at least as enjoyable as Red Scare, so I think you've been doing a great job setting this up and running it smoothly. On the other hand, it's obvious from your comments that we haven't been able to figure out clues that should have been obvious. I know that I tried, and others have as well. I don't think that we can discuss this too much here without giving away the plot of the game, but I suppose that it will be easier to analyse where we went wrong after the game ends.

1) You know your game is bad and frowned upon when the Games Moderator, a veteran that's been in every mafia and mystery game on this board, doesn't sign up. When I didn't get much of a "staff All-Star" turn out in Red Scare Mystery, I accepted it because I figured everyone had read Prohibition Mafia and assumed that I was a terrible host. However, I'd like to think I did a pretty good job on Red Scare Mystery. I received praise for it in the conclusion thread. So I was all smiles and happy when I put up the signup thread expecting the "All-Star's" to sign up for it. And none of them did. Not a single staff member. The only two fellows that did sign up are Fugazi and CorneliusMurdock, two novices at the start of Red Scare Mystery that emerged into great mystery players by the end.

I'm not trying to excuse anyone, but judging by Red Scare a mystery game requires a longer-term involvement than the typical mafia game. Six months is a long time. Perhaps this is why some people are wary of signing up.

2) Player participation. This is a big one, and I believe I let it all out a few paragraphs ago, but I have so much built up rage and anger, so why not? Let me throw this right out here. Chapter Twelve of Red Scare Mystery had 18 pages. And that was after six months of rigorous game play. Chapter Two has six. Chapter One, the start of the freaking game, has 10. Can anyone explain this to me? I sure can't explain it.

I agree, this is a big issue. Signing up for a mafia or a mystery game is a commitment, and I guess a few people don't take it all that seriously.

3) Miscellaneous Actions. Every even night I have had an action for myself. On Night Two, I beat up CallMePie with a bat. On Night Four, I burned down Fugazi's house. People don't understand these and I'm not sure why. You can do anything except kill someone. You could even kill yourself if you really wanted to. Break windows, throw trash cans, set up traps, burn down a tree, break the statues, do something other than "I'd like to follow player." This isn't a mafia game! Think outside the box!

I fail to understand how any of the actions you mention could help us find the criminals. I think giving open actions to players is a great idea, but the major problem I see is that every game morning when I look at the night's events I can't figure out for sure if anything that happened was related to the main mystery we're trying to solve or if it's just something a player came up with for fun. Now that I know that you're the one who had Marcus beaten up that first night, then again last night, I understand it's important in the grand scheme of things. But frankly, the first time I was pretty sure it was just a prank one of the players came up with for fun. Breaking windows and burning trees at night will only bring more confusion, so unless we're the murderers I don't see the point of coming up with random actions at night. And I'm afraid I can't think of more intelligent things to do during the night at this stage in the game. The only time I did, I ended up in more trouble than it was worth!

4) Investigating. People are investigating in all the wrong places. The biggest and most glaring example of this is the three chapters you spent in the police station. THREE CHAPTERS! Argh! I think you've investigated five locations. Out of about 20.

I think we investigated the police station because some clues pointed to the police officers. If we spent 3 chapters there, it's only because it's the time it took to be thorough. I don't see how we could have done it faster given the level of participation.

I hope that as the action picks up and the bigger picture becomes clearer, the absent players will want to become more involved. It's a bigger issue in Suburbia than it was in Red Scare because we're not as many, but I trust that as a group we can overcome this and keep going.

[Peanuts]

Right then, if you notice in the Chapter Six thread, I've paused the game. 

Right. I noticed, and I assume I should have checked this before actually posting there. Well, anyway.

Mayor Bob or various NPC's I play --- Bob_ : 12

What does this tell you? Two people haven't even posted today.

There have to be more posts of you than of any player, as you're the one giving the investigation results. Just saying. And you'll always have people who don't post certain days or at all. That's the same in mafia games, Heroica, practically everywhere. Of course it's annoying for the host and the more or less active players alike, but you can't change it.

1) You know your game is bad and frowned upon when the Games Moderator, a veteran that's been in every mafia and mystery game on this board, doesn't sign up. When I didn't get much of a "staff All-Star" turn out in Red Scare Mystery, I accepted it because I figured everyone had read Prohibition Mafia and assumed that I was a terrible host. However, I'd like to think I did a pretty good job on Red Scare Mystery. I received praise for it in the conclusion thread. So I was all smiles and happy when I put up the signup thread expecting the "All-Star's" to sign up for it. And none of them did. Not a single staff member. The only two fellows that did sign up are Fugazi and CorneliusMurdock, two novices at the start of Red Scare Mystery that emerged into great mystery players by the end. 

As Flitwick has pointed out, their participation wasn't any better. I can't say much about this, but maybe you should address them by this point, not us.

2) Player participation. This is a big one, and I believe I let it all out a few paragraphs ago, but I have so much built up rage and anger, so why not? Let me throw this right out here. Chapter Twelve of Red Scare Mystery had 18 pages. And that was after six months of rigorous game play. Chapter Two has six. Chapter One, the start of the freaking game, has 10. Can anyone explain this to me? I sure can't explain it.

I've also experienced that it's sometimes hard to actually investigate, as others might have done all the investigation stuff already. So what's left is roleplay, which is also fun, but the problem is, if nothing happens, there isn't much your character can roleplay about either. Though I enjoy playing Amber, I really do.

3) Miscellaneous Actions. Every even night I have had an action for myself. On Night Two, I beat up CallMePie with a bat. On Night Four, I burned down Fugazi's house. People don't understand these and I'm not sure why. You can do anything except kill someone. You could even kill yourself if you really wanted to. Break windows, throw trash cans, set up traps, burn down a tree, break the statues, do something other than "I'd like to follow player." This isn't a mafia game! Think outside the box! 

That's pretty hard actually. This is a point which I feel definitely addressed by. But the problem is, if one goes out beating people down, setting fire, breaking windows and so on you clearly become suspect. On the other hand, I've already yielded something using a miscallenous action, so it would feel like a waste to blow up someone's mailbox when you could actually do something useful.

4) Investigating. People are investigating in all the wrong places. The biggest and most glaring example of this is the three chapters you spent in the police station. THREE CHAPTERS! Argh! I think you've investigated five locations. Out of about 20. 

Because we don't know where we'll find evidence. And we continued finding out things in the police station, so there was no reason to leave. Then we looked at the houses of people who were related to the crime. We can't do much more but investigating faster. On the other hand, it's already a problem that all the investigations are done by the first few people, leaving the rest jobless.

And that's my rant. I'm sorry if I'm coming off as a bit of a loser or whiner, but it's getting to an intolerable level on my end. 

For those who care, I'd like to hear some feedback or opinion. 

So, you got your feedback. Please keep in mind I'm really not trying to argue, as I think you have a point about what you say, and that I'm aware these things are especially aggravating for you, as you're hosting the game.

[def]

1) You know your game is bad and frowned upon when the Games Moderator, a veteran that's been in every mafia and mystery game on this board, doesn't sign up. When I didn't get much of a "staff All-Star" turn out in Red Scare Mystery, I accepted it because I figured everyone had read Prohibition Mafia and assumed that I was a terrible host. However, I'd like to think I did a pretty good job on Red Scare Mystery. I received praise for it in the conclusion thread. So I was all smiles and happy when I put up the signup thread expecting the "All-Star's" to sign up for it. And none of them did. Not a single staff member. The only two fellows that did sign up are Fugazi and CorneliusMurdock, two novices at the start of Red Scare Mystery that emerged into great mystery players by the end. 

I never played Prohibition, so I have little opinion either way.

My main reason for not signing up for this game is the length of time Red Scare took. In general, I like mafia games that last one to two weeks. It gives me something to focus on and keep the details fresh. Red Scare was maybe six months, and this is nearing two months. I find it difficult to keep track of what's happened, and regardless of the host, I don't think I will sign up for a mystery game again. For that matter, I'm not too interested in playing Heroica either, since I found it to be too slow for my tastes.

My only criticism of Red Scare, other than the length, was that the targets were vague. I was 'scum' in that game, and I didn't really know what I was doing, even at the end. I had surfed through the mystery game Hinck had hosted before, and it looked fun, but I didn't start from the first day, so I don't know if that was any clearer.

I can't speak for any Fellows/staff signing up for it, but I think it's a lack of interest in mystery games more than anything directed at you. People are even suffering mafia burn-out too, in my opinion.

I wouldn't worry too much about your reputation as host, just keep a positive attitude, and show them how it's done right

[Bob]

Bob, cast your mind back to Red Scare Mystery. Would you rather have Shadows and Dragonator, with their four posts per chapter, in place of Rumble Strick, or K-Nut? People put too much emphasises on ranks, and it's turning into Downton Abbey (if you haven't heard of it, lords and ladies live upstairs, servants like below ground, serving the upper class). Just because they have a high rank, or are a member of staff, doesn't mean that their participation level is going to be any higher or better than others.

And what if they had signed up? Would cralegoboy have been turned down? Would ADHO have had to find another game? Would I have been posting this as an observer, rather than a participant?

If you look back historically, staff have always participated more, and there is a reason for this: they're almost always on the board. They have to regulate and patrol the boards, thus causing them to be able to participate in games. The people that you listed, ADHO, Cralegoboy, if they didn't make it in (keep in mind, there were more players) could have become reserves, and could have replaced those that were not participating as much.

By the way, why did you color-code ADHO pink?

As said above, some people can't join in the investigation, because there is nothing left to do. Another big factor here is that chapter twelve or RSM probably went on for longer than chapter one of Suburbia. We can make a hell of a lot more posts, and do a load more investigating, in a fortnight than we could in four days.

The time limit was removed; and although it might not be apparent, most of the Red Scare Mystery Chapter's did follow a time frame.

People like to play roles in role playing games. In Bloodbricks II, I played the Inuit with a thing for fish. In Mystical Castle, I played the sycophantic guard, who believed is superiors and his homeland could do no wrong. In Suburbia, I'm playing the honest, fun-loving cop, who is a devote fiance to his wife. I'm not playing an arsonist, nor a thief, nor a manic depressive. We're simply sticking to our roles.

Since people still aren't understanding, I showcased some of the most extreme actions. You understand these actions; you push a couch up to your door every night to protect yourself from harm, and that is one of the main reasons (I can't list the other) that you didn't die.

To reiterate what ADHO said, how do you expect us to know where to investigate, if we have no leads?

I do believe that I've given plenty of leads. I can't please everyone. If I give blatantly obvious leads, I'll be chastised by the person that I'm exposing. If I don't give enough leads, I'm being told that there are no leads. I can't solve this case for you. I know the answer to the mystery.

Now that I know that you're the one who had Marcus beaten up that first night, then again last night, I understand it's important in the grand scheme of things.

I admitted to beating up Marcus at the end of Chapter Two, I didn't say I had him attacked last night.

I think we investigated the police station because some clues pointed to the police officers. If we spent 3 chapters there, it's only because it's the time it took to be thorough. I don't see how we could have done it faster given the level of participation.

Reflecting back, I can see that it's partially my fault that you spent three chapters there because of the 96 hour day, but had there been more participation you could have achieved much more much faster.

As Flitwick has pointed out, their participation wasn't any better. I can't say much about this, but maybe you should address them by this point, not us.

I had referenced the administrators specifically because my topics rarely get locked. The Chapter Five thread is still open, as is the sign-up thread.

I've also experienced that it's sometimes hard to actually investigate, as others might have done all the investigation stuff already. So what's left is roleplay, which is also fun, but the problem is, if nothing happens, there isn't much your character can roleplay about either. Though I enjoy playing Amber, I really do.

This is another thing I didn't really mention. A few people are hyper-focused on investigating that most of the time they forget to roleplay. There's a lot of you that do roleplay, and I'd rather not call people out specifically that don't, but talk to each other, share what clues, share what you think happened, share your opinions, talk about something.

So, you got your feedback. Please keep in mind I'm really not trying to argue, as I think you have a point about what you say, and that I'm aware these things are especially aggravating for you, as you're hosting the game.

You're all giving me good feedback, which I like. I'm sorry if I am acting bitchy or annoying. By responding to your feedback, I am not inciting an argument, I'm feedbacking your feedback.

[Peanuts]

This is another thing I didn't really mention. A few people are hyper-focused on investigating that most of the time they forget to roleplay. There's a lot of you that do roleplay, and I'd rather not call people out specifically that don't, but talk to each other, share what clues, share what you think happened, share your opinions, talk about something.

Feel free to tell me if I'm not doing enough roleplay. I'm trying to improve mine, and I'd be happy about constructive criticism, really.

[ADHO15]

By the way, why did you color-code ADHO pink?

Because I'm a Duke; a fact I myself forgot earlier!

I've taken on board what you have said, Bob. I can understand your frustration and I hope you've understood where we've come from when we give you our thoughts back. I'll try to be a better player from here onwards.

[Bob]

A behind the scenes look as to how the foyer scene was shot.

I rather like the forced perspective as you look down the hallway.

[CMP]

Bo-ooooob, tell Winston to stop kicking me.

Oh, and tell Jack he's got some roof damage.

[Bob]

He's got more than just roof damage.

[Peanuts]

Suburbian houses don't seem to be very solid.

Remember me not to buy any real estates there.

[Rumble Strike]

I am pleased that this has been an open discourse. I think Bob is entitled to vent a little and that we as players are also able to add feedback.

From my perspective, and without addressing points specifically:

Things that I like, or things that I feel are going well:

1. I love the sets. They are lovely and give a real feel for the town and what we as townspeople are living in.

2. I like the characters. I think you have assembled some great characters and I think that there are a core of us who have been able to take those characters and roleplay them. I certainly had a lot of fun when we were investigating my residence with what was happening with the artifacts. I also appreciate Peanuts who is following my lead and I feel that we are having some good father-daughter banter which is adding to the game.

3. I want to specifically mention Flitwick and Fugazi for being good players in their roleplay as police officials. They have taken on the investigation mantle and are clearly the leaders of the rest of us normal townsfolk.

Things I don't like, or things I am confused with:

1. The town is very big. There are a lot of places to look at and explore. I think some of us are put off by the scale of it so we have targetting "safe" things like residences and the Police Station.

2. The clues. Bob, you say you have given lots of clues but I really feel that we are about as much in the dark in this chapter as we were at the beginning. Perhaps there are too many of us who are new to this, or I am just not seeing these clues. We spent ages looking at the police station, then you said about CCTV, so we looked at those images and they really weren't much use to us. This means we tend to do things piecemeal - go here, talk to people, investigate stuff, go to new place, repeat. It's hard to follow a narrative this way.

Just my thoughts anyway. I am glad it is continuing and I do thank Bob for his efforts and the core players who are making it fun.

[Mrlegoninja]

I'm very sorry Bob. Pleasr understand that I have a job and a child, and don't have that much time to post. I'm gonna try even harder to post.

But I agree it is weird that none of the All-Stars joined...

[Bob]

Everyone please know that there's supposed to be a "big bad storm" on the East Coast. Everyone please know this won't affect the game-play.

[Peanuts]

Er, I seem to have a problem with replying to the actual Chapter 6 thread. Everytime I try to reply, a red bar appears, just as the one which appears when you try to post twice in between 30 secs, but without any words in it. Sorry. But obviously I still can post in other threads.

[K-Nut]

That happened to me in one of the many Heroica threads. Did you check to see if your post made it through when you clicked and just didn't take you there?

[Peanuts]

Okay, I seem to be able to post again. I again apologize for not doing anything yesterday.

[ADHO15]

Just so you know, I have no idea what the codes and passwords are, so keeping on at me to unlock them won't do you any good until Bob comes on. Me posting to say I don't want to is just roleplaying while I wait. I'm sure Jeremy wouldn't want you all exploring his computer!

[CorneliusMurdock]

And us pressuring you is roleplaying as well.

[ADHO15]

And us pressuring you is roleplaying as well.

Fair point.

[K-Nut]

And us pressuring you is roleplaying as well.

Fair point.

Pressures of a teenage life.

[Professor Flitwick]

How old is Jeremy? I'm just wondering whether it would've been morally justifiable to beat the safes combination/computer password out of him.

[ADHO15]

How old is Jeremy? I'm just wondering whether it would've been morally justifiable to beat the safes combination/computer password out of him.

Oh, how nice! Getting lonely in the hospital, are you?