CMP

I didn't come to this conclusion on a whim. It took me a long time to compile this entire case, and over that time it occurred to me that if I was right about both you AND the vig, then today was conceivably the last day. With that in mind, I then it realized you could just be straight-up lying about it. You're not considering the possibility of Petr being town at all. What are you talking about?

I was considering possibilities. Clearly trusting you was a terrible idea, so the idea that somebody didn't trust you with it isn't that out of the world. But the numbers don't lie: you clearly intend on winning tonight since you won't budge on anything that isn't lynching Petr, so it makes perfect sense that you lied. You know you can't keep the charade much longer, so your game depends on him getting lynched and you winning before the blame can fall on your shoulders.

I think he may have had a hand in having Mist (perhaps Darr too) targeted and I think he had no issues being the one to pull the trigger on that lynching, but other than that, yes, that's my theory. What say you to this, Pudding-Head? If you flip town? Then we'd block the vig and lynch Petr. If he's town too, then we lynch the vig. That's my point. You're not suggesting any in-between. You're opposed to any idea that isn't lynching Petr today. That looks scummy even to people on the fence, Pudding-Head. Hold on, are you now insinuating Agnar is scum too?

Other than "you're scum and we should lynch you" or "you're town and we should bet the game on it", I don't see any. There's Agnar's idea but apparently you're in some sort of crazy blood haze and need to lynch Petr today.

Yes. It would explain a lot of your scummier actions, and some of the vig's. (Investigator's death, your frantic back-and-forth on your suspicions concerning the vig, and your recently-cemented unfaltering support of the vig). You said the vig was acting very strangely very early on, this would sure as heck explain that, too.

He's not a mastermind of a threat, he's the only remaining player you haven't tracked, and incidentally the last townie lynch you need before you and the vig can clean up shop and win the game. As far as keeping us alive, well, it'd sure look fishy for you, who claimed early on to know so many PRs, to be the only one left alive while our 'vig' is about and about wiping out the entire town, wouldn't it?

It might be ludicrous if it were someone other than you - who has pulled this of before, in the last Ragnarok game even - and if there were any other theories to speak of. Except for the "I saw him do a thing! Kill Petr!!" theory. off*

It's easier to just sit back. You had so much freaking credibility. What's the point of making the threat known? If you had been killing people, we would've been kicked into gear, we would've been on guard. Instead, you've sat back in the shadows, letting us wonder just what the hell the scum are doing. It's a cover story that's so good you can't even think of a logical alternative - and you're the one who made it happen in the first place. Why are none of us dead? That would've immediately implied a leak in the town block. IE, you. Except there's nobody left to leak it to. You can just keep it to yourself and let us run amok. If we're 'uncontrollable', it's only because you don't care who we ultimately end up killing, as long as it isn't the vig or yourself, since the rest of us are all townie. Yeah, Agnar, don't be silly. We've established Pudding-Head's insatiable bloodlust for townies already, why are you putting forth such a ridiculous proposal to him where somebody doesn't die. "Don't give the scum a chance to do whatever it is they are doing that I can't up with a single goddamn explanation for." This is best. Your strategy was so good you didn't even have a way to talk yourself out of it.

Are you claiming Petr predicted that he would be tracked and decided to not be here in order to explain himself? Boy, that sure is a hell of an explanation for why the scum haven't been killing anyone. I'm not even convinced Lauga's claim was real, now. It'd explain why you wanted her to get day-killed.

So you could start building a town block around you. I'll consider any logical option you can possibly throw out. Give me something. Anything. If you're so sure about Petr being scum explain why there haven't been any kills. We can't be killing eachother on such flimsy premises anymore, look at the last five people that've gotten killed. We need some kind of explanations for what's going on, and I think I have the best one.

"Maybe, but these conflicts, they are what they are. A lot of people - even some of my own - think this idea is silly, but really, I think the invasion of the High Kingdoms was healthy for most everyone involved." Miderun shrugs. "Things worked out. Now the orcs and the Kingdoms know where they stand. I can't say the same for your people and the Star Elves. I mean, they just dropped off half of our group with the other half, knowing that a Fenarian is going to be working with them to save another. That doesn't make any sense. A lot of people don't have the stomach for it, but fighting it out is just the most straightest way to solve problems. There was nearly a second war almost two years ago, but now, things are very good for Baltarok." "Wiping eachother out though...I have a hard time thinking both sides would go that far. But you would know them better than I. We will have to do our best to prevent all-out war." The orc nodded in agreement. "Bobby and I? We've been together for most of the time since we both came here. We hunted a rotten uzardtirn with an island, then bandits in a desert town. We've fought at eachother's sides for some time now."

Because if we had caught on any point you would've been screwed, where here, we can all be distracted wondering what the hell the scum are doing and listening to you go on about the traitor or conversion or whatever. And you're just bringing up these options now? Mencot was blocked, there was no scumkill, we lynched her, she came up scum. I'm open to other possibilities but it seems self-explanatory. In case you were pulling what you pulled in Ragnarok 2. Which you are. Except it doesn't look as convincing because your team sucked. What, that you've been running the show when it comes to the town block? You've been in the middle of it the entire time. We used to not have a PM and we all had to coordinate through you. You've had a hand in all the pies and that should already be plain for everyone to see. There's a reason you're always the one to come forward to the people outside the block with new information and a lynch target. It was a very clever move. It also made a great excuse for killing off a quiet townie. If you're calling me scum then spit it out. Because tonight would be your opportunity to win the game. We lynch Petr, you and the 'vig' each kill somebody, tomorrow is a tie between you two and two townies. Game over. This theory only recently occurred to me and like it's been blatantly obvious, you haven't been killing, you've been saving it, forgoing ANY possible risk, instilling doubt that the scum even have a kill anymore, until you can pull it out at just the right moment to win the game. It buys you time because you're running out of excuses. All your empty wondering about traitors and conversions and whatever dies once everyone has been tracked. Then what? The only logical response is for the town block to start looking at eachother. And since one of you is scum and the other is the SK, that's obviously not a good thing for you. Oh really? Well shit, then why wouldn't I be killing? :laugh: If the reasoning for a scum infiltrating the town block and then NOT killing is so COMPLETELY lost on you, then explain how I could possibly be scum? I think you're number five. I don't think Petr lied. I'm done discussing the traitor. You brought up the dumb idea, townies have died for screwing around trying to figure out the traitor situation, there's no reason for Petr to have not been killing (unlike you), I think you purposefully doled out the number information in the writeboard to instill doubt, and, again, I only asked you because I wanted to see what your reaction is: your suspicion about the 'vig' seemed to vanish when you teamed up as scum and SK. Was it killing Danr that confirmed the SK to you? You said the 'vig' had been acting suspiciously all the way up to that point, then it became 'unreadable', then somehow the vig regained trust enough to be invited into the town block PM. How do I humor that? It's total bull. You can't come up with an explanation for how the action is scummy, I can't come up for an explanation as to why it's townie. I don't think it happened. You are scum. I'm saying "it doesn't exist" because it was almost ludicrous to think you were scum to most of the town block before, so while you seem to believe there's scum left outside the town block because of traitor or conversation or whatever kind of reasoning you spin up, the simple fact of the matter is there aren't any. There couldn't be. YOU can't even come up for an explanation what they've been doing this entire time, but I CAN: you are scum. Argue all you want, you can't come up with a better reason for there to be no scumkills. Rather, if you were townie, I KNOW you could. I can't understand why my logic there is so foreign to you. My reasoning is perfect and you just can't seem to grasp it at all. You want us to continue on our goose chase for scum that you can't explain still existing. Oh my god. No. You have the kill action, you've chosen not to use it. Having no scum kill has induced more doubt than I've ever seen in a town block, and in you. It is the perfect cover. You don't care how thoughtful or flippant any of us have been about it, because after Darr died you knew you were in the clear, that every suspect remaining was townie. But you're not willing to follow through on it. You never have been. I've swung the idea of lynching the 'vig' MANY times and every time somehow you've fed us a new target by the end of the day. 'Bu-whaaaa? Oh, but why wouldn't I have killed, Pudding-Head?? It makes no sense! If I had the kill I would've killed. There is no risk! My mind is broken. ' That's just it. You've been willing to entertain that long-standing theory we've had for a long time in PM, but we never did anything about it other than that one block. Then after the 'vig' killed the investigator, you lost your shit, and said the vig was making no sense, then like a day later you said "nah, we talked it out" and invited the vig to the PM. What changed? Was that when you decided to ally? Well, you've been doing a terrible job of it lately, whereas I've just found him. You say you're scum hunting, but you can't come up with any logical reason that doesn't get contradicted as to, if they do exist, what they could've possibly been doing without kills for three days. Because like I just said, you can win the game after tonight.

Atramor slashes Tail B from the back row.

I vaguely remember Johnny Bravo appearing in an episode. I'd want to see that.

Atramor, realizing there is a letter now resting on the brim of his hat, pulls it off and scribbles his name down on it, letting it vanish without a second thought. --- Miderun, still following Bain through the forest, notices there's a lot of strange pink letters fluttering about for nearly no reason. She manages to read the entire thing and makes a valiant attempt to sign her name in Common before it pops out of existence.

"But- that's- but their 'game' is just dumb. I've never understood all this talking in circles you humans and elves like to do. Nothing gets solved! Nothing changes. It keeps things from getting fixed, just look at what just happened! Do you think the heroes of Baltarok talked the High Kingdoms into surrendering?" Miderun sighs. "I'm not a very 'play it cool' person Bobby, very few orcs are. It's not even really a custom, it's just, well, the reason we're still around. If Tarokai had just 'played it cool' things would've been very, very different, for lots of people. I mean, these elves have Hung and Lyrion hostage! If that doesn't make them bad guys, I don't know what does. That's the tactic of cowards." "But....fine. For now. Since it doesn't seem like we can take on all the Star Elves, I'll try and be..chill."

That was pretty much my logic, too.

Sorry for the delay, was a bit busy yesterday. But you solved the optional puzzle so yay. "Erhhh....." "Yeah, that's right. The potion shop lady is Portia, not Priscilla...none of this adds up, Gontzo." The guardsmen looked to be on-edge now, gripping their weapons intently and staring down the enormous thug slug. Gontzo flashed the heroes a cold glare - and at once the slug reached a stubby arm down to his side, a crossbow bobbing up into view. For a moment it seemed as though the scoundrel would attack - but on-edge now, the guardsmen quickly rushed the markslug. Emelia disarmed his crossbow with ease, while Grash was quickly to snap some shackles on the other wrist. The heroes gained experience! "Keepuna...echuta, dopa maskey, stoopa wakamancha kung!!" " 'Victim'. Gontzo almost had Grash..." "You have our thanks for seeing through this charade, heroes. But why the lies, Gontzo? While inaccurate, the details of the attack were...mostly similar to what we've seen before." The thug slug wriggled uselessly in place, grumbling something to Grash as the orc shackled him. Avina, still leaning against a nearby wall out of sight, stood up again. "Gontzo's crimes worse than we feared. 'Ugh, you stupid...-' Grash does not feel comfortable translating this part. '- heroes, you just had to stick your obnoxious noses in every little corner, didn't you? Times have been tough, do you think this house pays for itself? I was appropriating some - unneeded! - surplus from the damn potion lady....except I was spotted by one of these idiot guards, and he chased me around half the city. I thought I lost him, but when I got back to my place it seemed he'd managed to track me down. So I disposed of the issue, and-' " "You MURDERED one of our guardsmen?" The thug slug blubbered something almost incomprehensibly quick. " 'There was no-' " "Don't bother translating that, Grash...we're taking this vermin back to lock-up." "So you're saying this has been a complete waste of our time?" "Excuse Grash, but Grash was ABOUT to say, Gontzo spilling beans left and right... 'There was no way to get out of it, so I did what I had to! Except he was too damn loud when I was hiding the body, the neighbors must've heard and- but wait, I can give you more, I can be cooperative! I heard about these attacks from my pal Reg, he says he and his new gang the Sewer Wolves got hit by the machines a while back. He told me all about it while we were out drinking, he's- he loves that places down in the Hovels, Lady Luck's Locale, that's the one. You can find him there, I swear, I swear, he almost never leaves the place these days!' " " 'I spent all night coming up with a decent cover...how was I supposed to know where the place is, who visits the antiquary anymore these days anyway?! There weren't any machines, but my buddy Reg seemed to know plenty about them, he said he and his pals were out drinking hard one night, and the 'bots took all of them out.' "

Now that I've thrown a wrench in your works you're willing to delay your win by a day, nice. Cool, so here's the justification for killing off tonight's unlucky townie, you can all reference this when Petr gets filed away with Kaupmad, Tarr, Jafri, Lauga.... And then once you became the UNDISPUTED leader of the town, only then did our streak of scum-catching end. You being scum explains a lot, including the total lack of a scum kill recently. Why risk exposing yourself? Sit back and tell the town to destroy itself now that you've claimed credit for 'wiping out' the scum. So it was SHEER LUCK is what you're saying? We blocked Mist, and there just HAPPENED to be no kill that night, and she just HAPPENED to come up scum anyway?? Of course we went along with everything, you were the leader of the freaking town block. I'm not saying you ordered us to do this and do that, but it's been blatantly obvious that you're the leader of the block, you've known all the identities, you've been coordinating all the actions, so of course we're going to go along with your advice on everything. It's your facade that's been killing the town. I've been wondering for days now if there even are any scum left, and NOTHING anyone has said or done has assuaged those concerns, but here you are, still feeding us leads, "Lauga claimed a weird role", "Dagstyrr seems to be in the writeboard", and it doesn't matter how much of a role any individual part of the block has had in any of these specific instances, because they all end with "townie dead, let's look at the next guy, I bet he's scum because X." We came to this conclusion only recently, and because what the hell would blocking you have accomplished? Okay, so maybe I was a bit harsh in saying it was 'convenient'. I don't think you chose to zero in on Petr because he's absent, you chose to zero in on Petr because he's the only person you haven't tracked. So if you didn't come up with a positive result, it would've obviously raised serious questions in the town block. So you made up a result to buy yourself time. A result that somehow still ends without a scum kill taking place. Bottom line, I still think you're totally making up the result. So I'm curious and will humor you now, what do you think Petr's doing, if he has in fact targeted Toki? It's not a conversion, he would've done that three days ago. It's not a traitor recall, there's zero indication Toki attempted to contact the scum when they asked for traitors TWICE, and again, they would've done it a long freaking time ago. So if you claim Petr targeted Toki, give us some kind of indication of why he's doing anything but killing, what he could be doing, and why he'd be doing it to Toki would you? Or does your reasoning amount to be "He didn't tell me had a role?" You're missing the crux of my argument. If you're scum, it literally does not matter who me and Crane of the block are suspicious of and discuss and target, because we're chasing something that doesn't exist. Possibly. Maybe you were framed, there wouldn't've been a better time for it, you were investigated right after you claimed to know the blocker, vig, and tracker. As far as killing at will, well, for one, you wouldn't have to be falsying your results all the time, and for two, there was always the off-chance Crane blocked you or I protected your target or somesuch. Why bother taking the risk if we're doing such a good job killing eachother on our own? I've been saying for days now I think the vig is the SK. Neither of you seemed responsive to that idea. Also, whenever something happens and you feverishly rant about possible explanations, I tend not to read too much into them. What was it you said after today went up? "Are Adam, TK, and Dave all scum and they've been switching around the kills on the days I was protected??" What in the world am I supposed to say? I couldn't come up with any logical explanation as to a lack of a kill (at least until Lauga 'claimed' to you) and after she turned up townie we were still at a complete loss. You being scum would explain all of that. Who else would've been able to build the town block around them and then choose not to kill? Repeating it doesn't make it true. Also, we've all entertained at least the idea that our vig could be the SK at some point or another. You even kept the vig out of the block PM for some time. I thought we had the last scum in our crosshairs for like the last two days. I did agree, and if she did actually claim, then I agree, it was a ridiculous role. More important to you, if Jafri had lived, that would've given you another easy target to track for no reason. Cranebeinn and I shared our concerns with eachother, and then like hours after today started you told each of us the other was looking suspicious. Planting the seeds for tearing the town block apart when the rest of the vanillas died. There is no explanation for the lack of a scum kill. They're the scum. Their sole purpose is to KILL THE TOWN, not find a traitor or convert however many townies, their goal is to KILL THE TOWN, and if we've tracked EVERYONE and there haven't been ANY scum kills, it's because somebody is sitting back and letting us kill eachother, and guess who has the best seat in the house to watch? I'll give you a hint: he's got a head full of pudding, and he humps pigs. So he claimed vanilla. You're still making up the tracker result. Actually, most of it concerns you. Attention whore.

We lynch Petr now, you whip out your night-kill along with the vig, me and Cranebeinn are dead, game over. Because look at we've been doing since you've brought us together. We've been leading lynches, we've been killing townies, and we've been completely oblivious to you because you have the trust of all of the PRs. Things would've gone PERFECTLY for you if we hadn't wised up, and you haven't had to lift a finger in killing anybody. megablocks. I brought up the possibility, yes, after you flipped out because the vig killed our investigator. So the vig was blocked. And then for some reason your suspicions completely vanished, the vig became part of the town block, and our discussions about lynching the 'vig' evaporated. You CLAIM to have caught Petr targetting Toki. I had my doubts and you confirmed them when you became completely unwilling to even consider doing anything other than lynching him.

Mist had to be a sacrifice. You had to secure your credibility as leader of the town block. Darr may have been too, but I'm not sure about that. You didn't have the chance to prevent Lambi's death, and Jarl dug his own grave. That's exactly what I'm suggesting. We've been panicking over what the scum could possibly have been doing, lulling us into a false sense of 'security' while, with your direction, we've been the ones killing the townies. You've been worrying about traitors and conversions, but we haven't come up with ANY scum since our block really solidified and the kills stopped. We've been looking in the wrong direction, and now that you're running out of tracking targets, you're outright falsifying them, without risk, because we're about at the end here anyway. Why risk killing when you've had the town block at your beck and call? There's been no need for you to be killing because you have the trust of everyone and the block has been doing a great job of slaughtering the town on its own... When's the last time it had any bearing?? Just today you were wondering if they didn't have their kill back "because they had to find the traitor first". That is obviously not true because there was a scumkill after we nailed their original killer, Mist. Of course not. You weren't looking for a traitor. I don't think there ever was a traitor. I think you took advantage of Brand's flailing and planted the idea of a traitor, and it's been a constant distraction. Discussion about a traitor has comprised like half of the discussion across the entire game. I just checked the PM. You said you suggested that the vig stay home or kill Tarr, Ragnvald, or Petr. Two of those people were town, and I'd bet the third one is too. Not that that's particularly relevant, I think you're scum in addition to thinking our 'vig' is the SK. Yeah, purely for the safety of our 'vig'. You were completely disappointed that Tarr didn't take out Lauga instead of Jafri...who would've been a ripe target for you to feed us later.

Vote: Pudding-Head (Hinckley).

Weird, you PMed me in private trying to instill distrust in Cranebeinn earlier today, not me. With the scum team that was alive at the time, yeah. We agreed there had to be some kind of brain behind the scum team, someone who pulled the stunt that got Dagstyyr killed, someone who's been setting up all these nonsensical writeboards. It took a while to really occur to me, but the entire traitor was an ENORMOUS red herring. We haven't gotten ANYWHERE with it. A lot of townies tried to jerk the scum around by claiming to be the traitor in the writeboard. Hell, Lodmund got lynched for messing around the whole ordeal. In fact, now that I think about it, that's literally all it's gotten us. We didn't get any information with that, no matter how much you claimed we could find some in those writeboards. Dagstyyr got killed, Lodmund got killed, it's been distracting us for the entire game. Who first brought up the idea of a traitor again? Oh yeah, it was freaking Pudding-Head. Kill, kill, kill. You're in quite a rush considering we haven't appeared to be threatened by the scum at ANY point during the last three days, although the town is rapidly running out people thanks to you.

Hasn't he? It's looked like Pudding-Head's been onto something for a long time now. We thought he was onto something with Dagstyrr, and Kaupmad, and Tarr, and Jafri, and Lauga. For being a tracker, he hasn't done anything but uncover every townie PR. For uncovering the investigator and the only other townie confirmed by him, they sure did die pretty quickly. Only after 'confirming' him, of course. For all his theorizing about traitors and conversions lately, he hasn't really considered the possibility that the last scum could simply not be killing... For being the supposed leader of the town block he sure has done a good job of trying to turn it against itself while claiming that a tracked player, who incidentally will not be very active for the rest of this day, apparently claimed vanilla four days ago without informing anyone. For having the tracker, blocker, protector, investigator, and a vig at one point, he sure has done a good job of making sure only townies have died since then. I think Pudding-Head's been leading us in circles - he's done it many times before. He's been letting his allies die, sort of: Lambi was screwed from the start and Jarl dug his own grave - but made sure Mist got seen killing so give himself some credibility. After claiming to have both the tracker and blocker known at the end of Day Two, it only made sense he'd been investigated...so he had himself framed, likely by Darr. Or perhaps he's the Godfather....in either case, whether or not the investigator finding Darr was by Pudding's hand or not, the investigator was later killed, by the hand of our own vig, none the less. "Well, how the hell did that happen?" Pudding-Head claims the vig was being rash. He sent me a paraphrased conversation between the two of them, arguing over the hows and whys of it, apparently looking for my approval in being suspicious of the vig? That's a lot of effort to go through to say "I'm suspicious of this person", especially considering that I brought up the idea of lynching the 'vig' earlier today and he seemed COMPLETELY resistant to the idea, despite the fact that he seemed open to it in earlier days, back when he could easily blow off the argument with another target. He's been ranting about this occurrence since it happened, but when I swing the idea of acting on it, he goes to any lengths to put it off until the next day. (As a bit of an aside, the town block has been thinking our so-called vig has actually been the SK for a long time. Including Pudding-Head. The 'vig' can't be scum, he killed Lambi, but SK would justify an initial unwillingness to work with the town block, and more importantly, would explain a lot of the 'missteps', as Pudding-Head calls them, if the vig IS the SK and has been working with him and trying to win with the scum. Pudding-Head called Patrekr's death by scum 'strange' and 'suspicious', and has also swung the possibility of a scum day rolecop, well what if Patrekr was our vig? It would explain why there's been at most two kills during the night for the entire game...but we'll see.) Which is a entirely hollow argument, because he seems to think today is the last day, that we lynch this one last person, he's the last scum, yay we win. What do I think is going to happen? I think Pudding-Head is going to whip out the scum kill. He is the tracker...and when he initially told me he knew the tracker, he started with 'it's a very scummy claim to make'. And it is. It totally is. He's not lying about the role, he's successfully tracked many targets, but being the last scum, the kill ALSO falls to him. But why shake up the boat? Why bother killing when he has the vig and the entire lynching bandwagon under his thumb? So he's been tracking people, and coming up with nothing....AFTER he managed to find all the townie PRs, of course. He's been playing the long game, slowly chiseling away at the town while keeping the scum's kill safely under his belt for when it was needed most. That's why there haven't been any kills. That's why he's always going on wondering about conversions and the traitor in the town block. That's why he managed to convinced us that killing Lauga was a good idea - she was the ideal explanation for all this no-killer nonsense, having claimed (supposedly...no idea if anyone can verify this) a role very similar to what scum had in a past game. But she was town too, wasn't she? If continue to let Pudding-Head pull the wool over our eyes, this WILL be the last day. I know who I'm voting for.

"Right....ugh, I can barely think right now...bring us to Valhullu, and we'll have save Eckmar."