CMP

Why do you think there's THREE scum left? Since when I have ever suggested Agnar is scum in my theory?? Why would I have suggested Pudding track Petr if Petr is on my scum team? Where are you getting all this Crane? The second half of your dumb play is not relevant Pudding-Head, I told Cranebeinn I would be attempting to draw you out.

What? Petrus has been killing all these people. We've been determining these targets in the town block, dude. There HAVE only ever been two night kills ever. We lynched Mist because you blocked her and there was no scumkill, because we know Petrus killed Dagstyyr. Petrus killed scum on day one! Of course he's not scum!! He's either the vig or the SK!!

You never once said we shouldn't kill Lauga. You said you were sure that she was scum. You did want to track Lauga and I said you should track Petr... :laugh: I can't get over that. I don't, I just believe very strongly that you're scum.

Bull. Crane, can you confirm that this is a lie? Pudding was completely on-board with letting Petrus kill Lauga with no defenses.

Well, yeah. He's been giving me the impression he doesn't fully trust you for like the entire game. He wouldn't even try to deny that. And yet somehow whenever we start to consider to kill you, Pudding-Head comes up with some other lead we need to chase or someone else for you to kill. He's been making it look like you guys have been suspicious of eachother and if he's scum it wouldn't surprise me if that was a charade, too. I know. Of course you would both be suspicious of eachother in that situation. It's just that with my theory I'm thinking that you confirmed eachother as scum and SK rather than vig and tracker. You don't have to say it, the message is out there, everyone can decide for themselves if they believe you or if they don't. I don't want you lynched at the moment. People are not fully trusting in either mine or Pudding-Head's theories, and I'm willing to work with them on this because they haven't had access to all the information up until now. The game is still on, so whether or not we have a lynch is in the hands of the town, and I wouldn't have it any other way, so no, I'm not in crazy blood haze tunnel vision we-need-to-lynch-you-right-at-this-very-second on you like Pudding is with Petr. You're right! That's a stretch. We were desperate for answers at that point. We still are. I'm willing to admit I considered it as a possibility. I still do, but that's spectacularly unlikely at this point. But Pudding-Head brought up the damn idea, so don't act like I'm the one person who doesn't trust you. We were all in on that conversation, even if Pudding-Head was faking his end of it. Having a four-person scum team (like I was rolling around in my head back before I suspecting Pudding) seems like a reasonable compromise for no vig. That would've just left you as the person we had to kill. More recently I've been suspecting Patrekr was our vig, or maybe our vig just didn't feel strongly enough to kill and died before the role could be revealed. There's a lot of people that fit that description. If you're the vig, then I can totally understand that. The first two was me looking for a reaction. Cranebeinn has been sharing my suspicions since before the day started, dummy. I told him beforehand I would be searching for a response from you, to see if you were just dead-set on lynching Petr to win the game or if you still considered our 'vig' to be a veritable threat. You responded exactly as I suspected. You keep saying I want to save Petr but you can't come up with shit for reasoning as to why. I swung the idea of blocking and killing him because that prevents an EXTRA death today, which is something I can completely get, being townie. What math, the possibility of a scum win tonight in the case of me being right? It doesn't take a genius to figure out who the freaking bomb is and I can't exactly predict who you're going to kill. We lose the game if he flips town. If you're town, then yeah, you're probably right, and Petr's almost assuredly scum, but neither I nor anyone else here can be as sure as you can. You don't seem to be grasping that. I've been asking you this of Petr's role all day... Off the top of my head, maybe have some sort of strongarm modifier, I don't know. All I know is that what you're suggesting has more margin for error. I don't know by how much, but anyone can see that. Unless Petr is transferring the Ghosts of Scum Past or something to Toki and that's why they haven't been killing or whatever you try and spin up. Name any possible scum role you know of that can target people without killing them and win the game by getting to the night phase despite being blocked and kill. I thought it would've been obvious that I would protect Cranebeinn. The plan of block and kill Petr gives Petrus a chance to prove he's committed to doing what everyone thinks is best. (Assuming people agree with this plan. Where'd they all go again? ) He wouldn't have much choice regardless of whether he's vig or SK but he'd get lynched immediately if he didn't. I'm willing to admit my theory could be wrong, so I'm willing to talk things out so we can all reach a compromise. Try it sometime. And I never told you I was the protector in case one of you was scum. Oh wait, you are. Wow! Jumping STRAIGHT to his side, huh, Petrus? You guys must trust eachother more than I thought. What happened to the Pudding-Head that told me to not protect Petrus and told Crane not to block Lauga in case she had shapeshifted the bomb so we could get Petrus killed last night? Or was Lauga's entire screwed-up claim another charade? You keep trying to poke holes in my stance on Petrus, but I don't think you're given any indication as to what yours is, Pudding? You were hoping he'd die last night...unless that was a lie, too? Come on, Petrus. Surely if you were actually the vig you would at least recognize some of my concerns. Or at least pretend to. Can somebody else get on and make their voice heard?? I feel like it's same two or three people on loop here. For the record, Pudding-Head believed Lauga was the bomb, I swung the idea of not protecting Petrus, he was completely on board, but then after Crane decided to block Lauga (preventing the bomb) he didn't seem to mind. And then I suggested Pudding track Petr and not Lauga... Hmm. It had have been a lie, or you didn't seriously think Lauga was a bomb, or you were completely honest and you're not in fact working together, but Petrus is jumping to your defense anyway? My logic hurts.

I'm willing to admit my theory could be completely incorrect (go ahead and have at that statement) and I'm trying to find a solution that everyone can agree with. You are not, and that concerns me. Lynching Petr fails to address the possibility of you being scum. There's any number of things that can go wrong during the night and enable you to win the game. Logically of course Petr could have access to those things too, but the issue is, if my theory is correct, then we have two kills to deal with, and that's a giant risk. If your theory is correct, then the scum have at best one kill, maybe. Since we still don't know why it's not around. Even if we assumed Petr somehow converted Toki, it would take a LOT for us to lose game in any case. Lynching Petr makes winning in my scenario MUCH more precarious and difficult, where it's barely necessary to winning yours since he'll die at night anyway. Do you see what I'm saying? Toki? Call me back-pedaling or whatever, I'm trying to be realistic since nobody is willing to bet the game on either of our theories 100%.

Atramor slashes Body A from the back row.

Not solely for that, no, but I'm not exaggerating when I say Pudding-Head was losing his freaking mind to me in PM over you having killed Danr. He'd been saying since the beginning you had been acting suspicious. In fact he paraphrased your entire conversation and was under the impression you were going to make a case against him, or kill him during the night. Pudding-Head said as much, but I still don't understand why his suspicions on you completely evaporated. You were apparently resistant to even coordinating with him after you were tracked. We were seriously discussing getting you killed at numerous points with the bomb and outright lynching. We considered multiple scum factions and I think you were at the heart of that discussion. Then at some point it just stopped. It continued well after we created the PM including you, but the discussion about killing you just stopped. There is literally no way to confirm you since you killed the investigator. It just seems so damn convenient and Pudding-Head wouldn't stop ranting about it. It wouldn't be that far-fetched if it was an all an act and a plot by the two of you to get rid of the only other investigative role we had. I didn't know your identity up until Night Six. What concerns could I have shared that you could've answered? "I think you're the SK and there is absolutely no way to know one way or the other until you're dead"? If you're the SK you have little choice but to be playing along, same goes for if you were the vig. You've been a complete unknown, and you still are, and I'm still not convinced you should be around. That's all you can do is state you're the vig and not the SK. We can't even know one way or the other anymore now that our investigator is dead. My main worry, up until the point when I began to suspect Pudding-Head, was that we somehow killed all the scum and that you are the SK. We've been on a witch hunt and have come up with nothing. It bothers me that the LAST person to be tracked, so DANGEROUSLY close to the end of the game, just happens to have a role, and it's not even a kill. What are we expecting to accomplish? Let's assume Pudding-Head is telling the truth. What the hell has Petr been doing? What do we do if he comes up scum and the game continues? Well, logically we would lynch TK. What happens then? We've been too gung-ho about killing anyone we can't confirm, and now we have so few people left that I'm concerned Pudding-Head is lying and will pull something out of his pocket to win the damn thing. It bothers me DEEPLY that we still don't know what the scum are doing. Pudding-Head being scum and Petrus being the SK would explain a lot of this, and most importantly, THAT one big point. All it takes is one weird scum role to somehow pull this thing off if we lynch Petr. If the block doesn't go through then that's still the game. No, I can't come up with an explanation for that, but it still bothers me. Pudding-Head, why can't we block and kill Petr tonight? That's your one fixation above all else that gives me pause. It would give the vig credibility, and ASSUMING THE WORST, you and Petrus wouldn't be able to win the game. Petr dies, my concerns are alleviated, he doesn't get the chance to use his action, whatever it is, if he has it. We need to minimize casualties. Lynching him now just poses too much risk if he is townie, but it seems nobody's opposed to killing him. Surely if you're townie you can see the need to have as few opportunities for things to go wrong as possible.

I pointed out valid concerns that you can't answer, and other people are sharing them. I don't like your desperation to get him lynched. Or your face! To you. I don't care if it makes sense to you, it hinges on your being scum. Everyone else can see there are valid concerns, and that's what matters. Why, do you need the vig free to murder another townie?

I'd be okay if Marvel had more individual movies that were darker (like certain heroes. In the same vein that GoG and Ant-Man were silly, they could have darker movies, too), but I don't think Avengers has to be super-dark, it's just that Ultron was kind of cheesy. Civil War seems like it could be pretty dark without being Dark Knight-level gritty. I mean they're all fighting eachother, and not a one-liner machine.

For the tenth time: We lynch Petr. He's town. You and the vig each kill somebody. They're town. 1 (you, scum) + 1 (vig, SK) = 2 (townie) on Day Nine. Game over. You didn't answer my question. I'd be deeply concerned if you trusted me at this point, the point I'm making is that you seem to be going back-and-forth on me being a 'misguided' townie and being scum.

Holy crap Pudding-Head, make up your mind, are you accusing me of scum or not? Of course I didn't discuss my targets with you, not only was it completely unnecessary (I never even intended to claim to you until you tracked me), I've been protecting you and Cranbeinn for literally the entire game. Do we need another three pages of me repeating myself? Go back and re-read. I'm not even sure I see the point in arguing with you because now you can't decide if I'm acting scummy or not and, though I was outright exaggerating on this earlier, you actually so seem to be in a rabid freaking blood haze with lynching Petr today. Other people have offered completely valid alternatives and you are just having none of it. I'm getting tired of it. Nobody is blindly following me. Cranebeinn and I shared our suspicious in PM before all this. Agnar thinks you're freaking townie for god's sake and is offering alternatives that end with Petr's death and nobody else's. But no. You have to lynch Petr today, because you HAVE to win the game tonight, because you pulled your tracker 'result' from thin air and we'll know you're lying if we get to chance to see his allegiance. So is tracker. That is literally the first thing you told me in regards to the tracker. It's a scummy claim. Quit offering us these garbage hypotheticals. If we lynch him the game ends tonight. You can't even determine what you think about me, Pudding-Head. Are you freaking accusing me or not? If Petr gets vig-killed instead of lynched today, you can't win the game if you're scum. That's why. I don't. You're scum and you're allied with the SK, why would I ever think the vig is on board with me?? You're whining about me wanting to lynch the vig twice now (you've stated this repeatedly IN THIS VERY POST) and yet you think the vig is on board with me?? PUDDING-HEAD HAS TO THEORY AS TO THE LACK OF SCUMKILL!!! Joy of joys, it's a freaking Ragnarok miracle. I mean, it's a carbon copy of my theory (the one he was apparently unable to comprehend for my entire argument), but it's a theory. Also, you do realize lynching Petr in this theory would STILL cement a scum win? (While in fact vig-killing him would not?) You win the game if I'm right. You win the game if I'm right. You win the game if I'm right. You win the game if I'm right. Are you getting this Pudding-Head? I mean, you can't acknowledge I'm right obviously, but refusing to see the point behind not lynching Petr is wasting everyone's time and validating the concerns about you that I have and other people are starting to share.

"You seem pretty heavily armed for a social call. Luckily for you, heroes are more welcome than they have been in the past. But you still need to disarm." Avina shot a sideways look at the party, evidently uncertain that this was wise.

"Most of us had been enslaved at that point anyway. We managed to free a lot of slaves, actually, and if it weren't for the invasion, we'd still be a bunch of angry tribes killing eachother, the High Kingdoms would have all the power in the world, the rest of the world wouldn't have started seeing slavery is bad, and Heroica wouldn't even exist." "Fair point. Good thing Oswain already wants to kill us, we won't have to waste time trying to get him to back down." "An uzardtirn is a necromancer."

That is logic that I can agree with. Whoa, whoa, whoa. When did the vig get "off board"? The entire purpose of me pushing for the vig's lynch was to see A. how bad you wanted Petr lynch and B. how much you seemed to trust your vig when push came to shove and we weren't just idly discussing taking the vig out. Has something changed? Pudding-Head, my theory assumes you have a scumkill ready to go at any time, if we have Petr killed by the vig then that's going to alleviate my concerns. That's how it's different than Petr being lynched now.

"It's been...gods, seventy, eighty years now? Since I died, I mean, I only came back two years ago. They didn't keep me around. I'm...not sure they'd even accept me, but I'm not letting my skills go to waste. So I've been helping Grash here do his investigating. I'm starting to think we'll leave this one to Heroica, though." "Grash thanks pretty elf for help. Grash not so sure about Heroica after brother Gnash died helping them. Captain not even tell Grash what Gnash was doing. But Grash thinks heroes not so bad now." "Don't worry. He'll be serving plenty of time for this. Thug slugs are pretty long-lived too, might even get triple or quadruple sentence..." "Echuta..." Gontzo continued mutter expletives under his breath and wriggling in his shackles uselessly. Eventually his slimy fedora fell off his head. He reached his stubby arms down for it, but Grash snatched it up first. "Grash not think so, Gontzo doesn't need extra strength in prison. Take this, heroes. Gontzo will not need it." Wolfish Fedora (+5 WP for each standing hero with Wolfgang reputation and Wolfgang NPC in the party, headwear, suitable for heroes with Wolfgang reputation) Gontzo glares at Grash, grumbling something under his breath. The orc frowns and furrows his brow, translating one last time for the slug: " 'Say hello to ma for me?' " "Actually, yes. Hid out there a year ago while I was being hunted by one of the bloody Pilgrims. Halloween party. I was sitting right next to him and he didn't take so much as a glance at me." Mortimer can't see Avina smirk, but he can practically hear it in her voice. "It's a dump in my opinion, but I'm told there's more history there than it appears." The party departs Gontzo's house, leaving the Town Watchmen to deal with the thug slug, heading dead east towards the Hovels. Avina rubs her chin. "You handled that worm well. I wasn't exactly expecting him to give in so easily...at least, I thought it would be coming to blows. I just hope you know you can't talk down everyone. A precise application of force can be just as if not more effective. But I suppose you have an image to maintain..." "Really? Then hopefully you'll know your way around the place. The proprietress can be...difficult. Unfortunate. We've tried contacting her several times, she was one of the best information dealers in the business back in the days of the original Veterans. Or so I hear." She flicks through her ever-present folder again, and presents the party with another page. "Now, here's what we have on Reg." As the party read over the report, they noticed they had passed through the Hovels gate. The sun was still high in the sky, and they passed a considerably variety of beggars out in the middle of the day. Noticeably, none of them seemed to confront the party. It looked as though the face of the Crimson Crown was known enough to make them wary of Avina and the party. The alchemist didn't seem to take any notice as the party reached a tall, surprisingly intact building. It was old, outdated, antiquated, and yet it still was one of the most cohesive-looking buildings in the Hovels, decorated with moth-eaten red draperies around the outside. "Seems like he's got some history with your organization. He'd better be in a cooperative mood...and he better have some information for us, or we'll have to think- think of-" Avina trailed off as the party reached the front door, guarded by an...eccentric-looking bouncer. "...." The ogre crossed his arms over his burly chest. "What's your business here, heroes?" he questioned demandingly. Apparently he'd had experience with them before, too. Party Mortimer "Em" Mahzan (Emjajoas) Unknown age human male Warden *Immune to Electricity, Fire, Water, and Ice* *Half damage from elemental attacks* *Party Leader* Level 25 Power Bonus: 5 Defense: 28 Health: 45/45 Gold: 304 Equipment: Tritech Handcannon (WP:16, permanent poisoned 17, cursed), Vigilant (SP 12, halved damage from elemental attacks, immune to Electricity, Fire, and Water; shield), Iron Knuckle Armour (Body, foot, and hand wear. Counts as one artefact. Usable by knights and dragoons. SP: 10. Cannot be removed by enemies), Anniversary Medal (Artefact/Accessory, Power +3, SP +3, Max. Health +3, Max. Ether +3. The values will increase by 1 with each passing year), Frost Helm (SP: 3, immune to ice, suitable for anyone, headwear) Inventory: Weapons: Blazing Bow (WP: 14, Fire-elemental), Doppelganger (WP:10, Retribution: The user inflicts any negative effects he or she has on the target enemy on successful hits; longsword), Balanced Main-Gauce (WP: 10, Riposte has a 1/6 chance of instantly killing the/each target, dagger, suitable only for marauders), Crescent Shield (SP: 5, halved damage from elemental attacks, shield), Carpenter's Gloves (Enhancement is automatically successful, traps deal double damage, handwear, suitable for artisans) Consumables: Health Core x5, Potion, Remedy, Mead, Venom, Phoenix Esssence (3), Ambrosia (4), Mulled Wine (2), Feather of Flight (Allows the user to flee from the battle when used.), Nostrum, Smelling Salts, Elixir, Bone, Smoke Bomb (5), Floral Bomb (2), Ice Bomb (2), Lightning Bomb (2), Fire Bomb, Water Bomb (2), Holy Bomb (2), Dirt Bomb (2), Air Bomb (2), Chaotic Bomb (100 random elemental damage to all opponents) Misc: Bedroll (2), Shovel, Pickaxe, Telescope, Reaper's Heart, Mythril Shard (1), Amethyst, 5 Silver Ore (Worth 60 gold), Oath of Renewal (When the targeted enemy is killed, the Vindicator regains full health. Oath, suitable for vindicators) Annienal Anavir (Kintobor) "19" year old elven female Mystic Knight *Bonaparte Reputation* *Immunity to Earth and Fragile* *Takes half damage from elemental attacks* Level 16 Power Bonus: 0 Defense: 10 Health: 31/31 Ether: 20/20 Gold: 20 Equipment: Bonaparte Cutlass (WP:9, doubled if the user has reputation among the Bonapartes; longsword), Crescent Shield (SP: 5, Halved Damage from elemental attacks; shield), Heavy Armour (SP: 5, immunity to fragile, body wear, suitable for barbarians, knights, dragoons, skirmishers, regulators, and vindicators), Locustoid Greaves (Max Ether +4, immune to Earth, suitable to ether users, hand wear) Inventory: Ammit (WP: 6; greatsword, user gains 5 ether for every kill), Anointed Gladius (WP: 8, deals damage undead; great sword) Wicked Javelin (WP: 7, throwing weapon, retrievable, 1/6 chance to slow), Sanctified Rito Longsword (WP: 4, Hits doubled against flying enemies, longsword), Training Sword (WP:4), Shark’s Tooth (Power increased by 5 against Aquatics, Accessory), Tridentian Cape (Max Ether +3; protects from Blinded effect; suitable for mages, clerics, necromancers and scholars; backwear), Lethauros Fellwings (SP: 3, wearer is immune to Sudden Death, backwear), Tobacco Pouch (1/2 Chance of Blinding with attacks, accessory), Helmet (Max Health +1, headwear), Pauldrons (SP: 2, suitable for knights, dragoons, and skirmishers; accessory), Plain Shield (SP: 5), Lethauros Mask (SP: 2, wearer deals double damage to Beasts and Vermin, headwear, suitable to everyone) Emerald (Wood), Sapphire (Wind), Aquamarine (Water), Amethyst (Darkness), Topaz (Lightning) Consumables: 3x Potions, Grand Potion, Field Rations (Restore 15 health), 2x Phoenix Essences, 4x Remedies, Mead, Venom, Smoke Bomb, Fire Bomb, Bedroll, Shovel, Telescope, Pickaxe, x2 Grand Tonics Scrolls: Scroll of Fire Warding (1/2 chance to make the target immune to fire for the duration of one battle at the cost of 1 ether), Scroll of Ice Warding (1/2 chance to make the target immune to ice for the duration of one battle at the cost of 1 ether), Scroll of Water Warding (1/2 chance to make the target immune to water for the duration of one battle at the cost of 1 ether), Scroll of Wood Warding (1/2 chance to make the target immune to wood for the duration of one battle at the cost of 1 ether) Calamity (Scubacarrot) 24 year old human Mage Level 6 Power bonus: 2 (spell) Health: 10/10 Ether: 10/10 Gold: 81 Equipment: Skull-Topped Staff (WP: 3, staff), Gold skin Gloves (Spell power +2, Usable by mages, Handwear) Inventory: Bedroll, 4x Potion, 3x Tonic,4x Remedy, Scroll of Blindness (Enables casting the Blinded-effect to the target, making it unable to use a physical attack for the next three rounds. Each casting has a 50/50 chance of success and costs 1 ether.), Amethyst Keliim (Mencot) 35 years old male human Barbarian Level 10 Power Bonus: 0 Health: 17/17 Defense: 2 (doubled against free hits) Gold: 37 Equipment: Dwarven Orichalcum Axe (WP: 5), Heroic Helm (Headwear, SP:2, Helm's SP doubles on free hits) Inventory: Order Imperial Longsword (WP: 5),Really Hard Helmet (SP: 2, Immunity to Rock), Королева's Blessing (When equipped the player gains the ability to Animal Speak to Spiders only, and all spiders are Enamored with him for the first three rounds of battle, accessory), Scarab Shield (SP3 Shield, bearer takes half damage from vermin) Consumables: x10 Potion, Grand Potion, 3X Mead, 1X Smelling salt, 2X Smoke Bomb, 1X Poison, 1X Dirt Bomb. Misc: Shovel, 2X Obsidian Shard: may be affixed to a blunt weapon to give the Bleeding 2 effect for one battle. 2X Charion beetle horn. 1 X Crystal Shard(treasure item, worth 20 gold) Avina Truenal, Crimson Crown Alchemaster (NPC, controlled by Emjajoas) *Immune to Cursed, Jinxed, Hexed, Transcended, and Blessed* 36 years old female human Alchemist Level 15 Power Bonus: 0 Health: 34/34 Gold: 40 Equipment: Zeta and Sigma (WP: 13, dual strike, daggers), Leather Gloves (For Mixture, the die is rolled three times instead of twice, and the highest two results determine the created item; suitable to alchemists; handwear), Masque (Immune to cursed, jinxed, hexed, transcended and blessed, accessory, suitable to members of the Order of the Crimson Crown) Inventory: 5 Potions, 2 Remedies, Phoenix Essence, Cloud of Celerity

If my concerns about Pudding-Head end up being justified, then there's your answer. It would be pretty great if he did show up.

That reminds me, what was with you PMing him that I was suspicious and then PMing me that he was suspicious?

I'm not trying to convince you of anything Pudding-Head, our arguments are obviously completely mutually exclusive and I'm making a case for everyone else (wherever the hell they are) to make their vote.

There's why for the scum not killing, there's a why for Petr's night action (it doesn't exist), there's a why for the vig killing the investigator, there's a why for the vig's weirdness, there's a why for you completely intent on lynching Petr right now.

And that's why I believe so strongly in my theory. There's no questions hanging off the end like this. There's a why for everything, where you can't come up with any for Petr being scum.

Now you're the one being obtuse. You're really latching onto the smallest details here. Yeah, I briefly thought Petr might've had a night action, then realized if you WERE the mastermind, it'd make more sense that you were just lying outright to get Petr lynched and secure your win. And that's why you're so damn stubborn about having him lynched now.

I meant building the entire town block around you and then leading them on right up until the end. This is what gets me. Even if I humor you in your tracker results, you still can't come up with any explanation as to what Petr is doing, and why, and how. You want to bet the ENTIRE game on Petr's lynch and we don't even get to know what we're trying to do. All you can do is sputter about traitors and conversions and keep on lynching and killing. My theory is built around an explanation, something that explains everything.

Because you being scum would explain everything, including the one big thing that NOBODY else can explain. Of course I'm freaking desperate, you're about to stab us in the back and win the game. Come on, this has happened before, it's in the last Ragnarok game, except this time your team just sucked. What's your theory as to why Petr targeted and Toki and what he was doing? Especially since, as you aptly pointed out, Toki has been very scummy the whole game?

That depends, am I scum and have I duped the entire town block in this scenario? If you weren't lying, yeah, that's blatantly scummy, but you are lying, so that's also completely irrelevant.