Hinckley

So, you are trying to determine if he's taking the game seriously? Let me be clear...again...Berty came to me and wanted to claim his role. I said he shouldn't claim to anyone who isn't verified and he said something like you have to take a leap of faith in Mafia sometimes. So then he said Miller. I haven't been in a game with a Miller in a long time. I know it's a smart claim for a Scum to make. And a proactive Scum team has a better chance of surviving scrutiny than a reactive one. Either way, I had just had a conversation with Jack Pine about how he didn't expect there to be a Miller since there had been no claim. Then I asked why a Miller would claim and he told me that's how the Miller should be played. I also told Berty he might be at risk of being killed by the vig since some people were suspicious of him and there was a vote or two. He said he was more worried about the investigator...because he's the Miller. He said he thought I might be in touch with the investigator and might be able to tell them not to waste a night on him since he knew he would come up Maple anyway. So, I told him to claim because I didn't know the investigator on Day One and wouldn't have shared it with him anyway and had just learned from Jack that that is what a Miller is supposedly supposed to do. Berty said he was a noob and wasn't sure how to play it. Then, he said he wanted to know the bomb so he could talk to another Townie about the game. To be honest, I'm dubious of the Miller claim, the bomb claim and what William claimed. They're all good roles for Scum to pretend to have and all three went claiming them to people early in the game. I am trying to get homework done and it's past my bedtime, but I'll try to find the time of these claims before I head to sleep.

Looking back this seems like a CYA: So, according to William, he can see the justification for the lynch of Catarina but votes for Maggie anyway just to get him to talk and then comes up, all-knowing, today about how dumb the lynch was. Seems like he was covering his megablocks. Blue and bold added for emphasis. Underline added for extra emphasis on the fact that he did not conclude it was a "BS lynch". Scummy.

megablocks!

I would say confirmed, but the stumps seem to think I'm a common denominator for them, whatever that means. If I tell them who to trust that would give the three stooges another chance to distract us all with more fishing. The stumps know full well what I've claimed. They'll make their own decisions. Hopefully without Dave-ing us any further. What's a CYA?

We could still lynch Larry if Berry is protecting him from being lynched. Again, noticed the conspicuous lack of bandwagon and some of the weak reasoning.

Honestly, I think Waldorf just made the strongest case we've heard.

Unofficial update: Interesting... Berty, Bobby, Jack, Lassie, Sammy?

I did. It just didn't happen in public. No. I meant Berty. Because I promised him earlier I'd give him an example of fishing. I know all Oaks must look alike to you Maples, but Bruce and I are two different players. I haven't galavanted anything. And I would say all the fishing you and Sammy and William have done is what's complicating things. I've stated very simply: we were both confirmed by an investigator. Anything unique about the situation, assuming there is, won't be explained publicly or to anyone who isn't trusted. I could put that in my signature so I don't have to keep repeating it. Would that help you three? Insisting that the order of events won't matter when I've repeatedly said I've explained all that needs to be explained is fishing. I don't think the object of the game is to impress each other. Bruce is an Oak.

What does it matter? This is fishing. You and Sammy and William keep asking for clarification and I've already said I'm not revealing any more about it because I don't want to potentially reveal too much to the Scum.

I never said I only started talking to the investigator today. Any insight from the stumps about the current lynch-leaders? Not about what they claimed to you guys, but about the suspicions and accusations themselves.

Since we have been metagaming noobs, let's metagame some vets. Seriously, looking over the previous days, I've noticed a disturbing trend. Three people fishing for info about Town PRs. I will be pre-empt this by saying that these suspicions are just that, suspicions. Most of what pings me about them is how hard they're pushing for information about the investigator. They could just be heavily scrutinizing to make sure people aren't claiming to Scum. I've earned the reputation. However, it's a bit early to be so sceptical of the information I've brought forward and to be pushing so hard for me to reveal more about it. I'm laying them out as my suspicions in case I'm killed during the night, they are here for everyone to see. I will, in fairness, metagame myself for the noobs. I have played a lot and am often claimed to. This has had mixed results for the Town even when I am Town. I've learned a lot since some early mistakes and I have obliterated some Town teams as a Scum member or Cult Leader even. But I'm an Oak this time. So far, you only have my word. My point is: Nash, Sammy and William know me well. They're right to be worried with people claiming to me no matter what side they're on. So, that's what I'd like to figure out. Which worried are they? Nash Ash: This pinged me because it felt like Nash was pre-empting my ability to defend myself if wrongly accused, which is what was happening at the time. Sammy was twisting my words around. When someone twists your words around, that arouses suspicion. I was attempting to get to the bottom of why my words were being twisted. This is not a case of defense, it's a case of pointing out what could be a Scum tactic. Suggesting it's over-defensive is encouraging people to disregard it. This pinged me as well because it misrepresents the way I've been playing. I've been looking into my suspicions. I'm tired of people suggesting looking at previous behavior but not actually doing anything about it. It's a Scum tactic for sliding under the radar while appearing to be working on drawing out suspicious behavior. This is the first attempt at fishing out more info about the investigator. So, you think asking Sammy about someone who was "confirmed" wasn't something I should do when I'm talking to an investigator? All anyone has said today is that another investigator claim would be suspicious, so when Sammy said that someone has a trusted group of allies, it's important to look further into that. Because that would be a counterclaim. Suggesting that I shouldn't ask Sammy about a person who has a trusted group of allies contradicts the notion that we need to look out for counterclaims. Then, you again twist things around to suit your accusation. This ^ is fishing, Berty. No, there is another. This sounds a lot like you're trying to get that person to come out and defend us. Fish, fish, fish. Now you're suggesting that being confirmed and being able to lynch Scum is the same thing. I am the first to admit that Bruce is overly-cocky, but he is an Oak. That I'm 100% on. Trying to suggest that he should be lynching Scum just because he's verified is a Scummy move. Sammy Sycamore: My initial suspicions about Sammy are in this post. Or I've spoilered the post here: This is also fishing. With nobody counterclaiming the investigator and us bringing the info we've found to the rest of the players, what is your concern with who revealed the info? You are either overly paranoid Town (which I commend and you know I've been there too) or Scum trying to avoid the formation of a Town block. This is my biggest dilemma, however, because I understand how a poorly formed Town block can kill the Town. So the fishing pings me, but the caution really does make sense to me. So my suspicion of Sammy may be respect for his game and metagaming because we've played together on both sides with mixed results. This is reminiscent of a post I've seen from you before so I fully admit it is metagaming. This sounds like you concur with Bruce as an Oak but just don't like his attitude. I bet the Maples are very annoyed with his attitude. William Willow: I know his style is aggressive but not normally quite as careless as these two examples. There is no reason to ask this in public without verifying things with Bruce in private first. If you are Town, you want to keep any unique feature of our PRs secret from the Scum. You are trying to undermine other people's confidence in Bruce. There is no other responsible Town reason to Dave this private message from Bruce. Well, I meant six posts, I was drinking. You say I posted five pages of dribble. Well, the word is drivel anyway. Needless insults aside, you know I will follow a suspicion through. Town or Scum, Sammy completely misrepresented my posts. That is suspicious. I will get to the bottom of it and make sure people see what I see and hopefully tell me I'm wrong if they don't see it (which some did). Again, this pings me because it seems like you're trying to completely negate my suspicions of Sammy. Why? Are you so confident in Sammy that he is an Oak? This is really weird fishing. Now, since Bruce and I have been confirmed we're supposed to be able to script the Night Action results too, of course. What is your opinion on Larry aside from us voting for him? I'm suspicious of Nash who placed the first vote but I voted for Larry because I find him suspicious and I know what WIFOM is. But if our investigator finds something on Night 3 that I can't reveal on Day 4 because it will jeopardize the Town, I won't reveal it. Regardless of your weird threat.

True, but it would give us a place to start. If that happens, tell a player you trust to be an Oak and then that person will work to figure out the true claim. If they don't, well then call them out.

Thank you. Bobby, without self-deprecation, can you please explain this. I've asked once already. Why would you have to "barefaced" lie in order to defend yourself? (bold added for emphasis)

That's pretty rude. Any reason why not?

I love stories like that. It's happened to me once that I had dueling investigator claims. Adelaide will remember that one.

Oh, gotcha. Well, don't insult yourself. No need to take it that seriously. This is a game, have fun. Unless you're a Maple. Then die, miserable Scum! Let me be quite clear that it is not Berty that is confirmed. That would be Megablucked up if the investigator had confirmed the Miller. It's been a while since I've played. Is the lack of bandwagon on Larry telling? At this point on Day Two, Catarina was almost lynched already. Maybe we are onto something. Peter, how are these disconnected posts your contribution for the day? And with a vote for Larry in between them. Are you trying to keep the two suspicious players even in votes?

Aha, well I consider "fishing" to be a negative term. I'm not looking for new information that doesn't impact me. I'm asking for something said publicly to be clarified. We've seen some fishing today, but I'll get to that later. First, I engage in aggressive gameplay, now I'm a nihilist? No need to be insulting. This is fishing and we've seen it on this very subject already today: I would hope if I was lying about being in contact with an investigator, the "real" investigator would find a way to alert you all. Or a stump could be used with codes, etc. I guess you're not fishing as much as you are lazy since this has all already been discussed. Bruce was cleared by a person claiming to be the investigator and so was I and the investigator claim has gone unchallenged.

megablocks. If Lauren says all the claims were vanilla and you say you claimed Miller, we all deserve clarification of what you told them.

I just had a bunch of multi-quotes, then I hit the back button accidentally. I'll look back over what I had later on. For now: A friendly poke? Are you suspicious of him or not? Plenty has been pointed out about his behavior for you to form an opinion. I believe we are past the point of poking. We don't find Maples by voting for people to get them just to get them to talk. Look at his posts, analyze his behavior, discuss how you feel about his alignment. Lauren, do you consider the Miller vanilla? Is what Berty said true about what he claimed to the stumps?

Precisely. That's why it was more worth mentioning because Nash and I thought of the same possibility. But, as he said, it's a crazy theory. Yes, new hosts like to try new things, but let's not metagame the host. It is Only Day Three. There's no need to panic...yet...that we haven't turned up a Scum corpse. It's early and we can just now start trying to piece things together with the Night Actions who are coordinating. And just because we have two confirmed Oaks doesn't mean other people shouldn't be looking at the previous day threads looking for Scum. We're confirmed, that doesn't mean the host PMed us a list of who is on which side. We're all still pretty much in the same boat.

If the point was to guide the vig and investigator to the vanilla claims...hasn't that been accomplished? Possible but unlikely. But don't mix my two answers together. There is precedence in larger games for Scum to have a framer that targets a player to make them appear the opposite of their allegiance to an investigator. The idea of the night results being messed with could be a unique concept from Alder or another type of role we haven't seen here yet.

Because the investigator has confirmed two Oaks, we don't have Night Action results that indicate any Scum yet. So, I am drawing conclusions based on people's posts and my own instincts and analysis. I don't necessarily want anyone following that at this point. Being confirmed as an Oak doesn't mean knowing who the Scum are. I'll admit that Bruce's attitude is less than desirable. However, being confirmed as Oak doesn't give us the ability to read minds. It does not give us the ability to see the game any clearer than you do. At the moment we have the same information the rest of the Oaks have in order to inform a lynch plus the identities of a couple of power roles. When we come up with information that leads to a Maple lynch, we'll be sure to be clear about it. Of course Scum could have a way to tamper with investigations. And it's funny you say that, because some of the stumps ping me too and I was also considering the same crazy theory. Is there any precedent for a Mafia role that causes a dead player's affiliation to be hidden and then obscures the remaining night results? Also, there doesn't need to be a Miller, so even without a counterclaim, he could still be lying. It's a good role for a Scum to claim. As pointed out, he did claim it late in the day after he aroused some suspicion. He did also come to me asking for the identity of the bomb claimant. I admit this ping has been a slow burn. He asked me this early on Day Two. The more I consider everyone, the more suspicion Berty seems.

Would this be considered an "appeal to emotion"?

That assumes all the claims were accurate. I don't think Lauren understand what she did wrong. I'd like to be able to utilize what we started, but it may be risky. Think about how detrimental the mistake that's already been made can be for us.

We were attempting that but I think people lost confidence in the idea, for good reason, when Lauren displayed her recklessness with the information.