Haddock51
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Everything posted by Haddock51
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Interesting comments. I remember several years back when I started planning this project, there were proposals to proceed with DCC. Given all the requirements and specifications, at the end of the day there was some consensus that DCC might not be the optimal solution in this case. Referring to my previous discussion with stefaneris, your comment is a good example of different expectations and demand compared with mine. I understand that the option to run many trains simultanously with the help of remote control in your case has been highly prioritized. That obviously results in different solutions. For me, remote control has not been a top priority in comparison to other important criterias. The most important issues to deal with have been power supply, power- and heat management/control and the possibility to run up to four trains simultaneously (for that you don't need RC on this layout). This is most likely the limit for how many trains you can run simultaneously on this layout because each train requires full attention all the time. The possibility to run four trains (theoretically with ten engines each) at the same time required substantial modifications of the speed regulators, a stronger transformer - which I have mentioned before - and options to selectively disconnect some power contacts to the rails in order to segment the layout properly. Other than that, everything else is standard. No modifications of motors or trains - with one exception: the ploughs on the train buffers for locomotives must be grinded in order to avoid contact with tracks when entering and leaving gradients. I honestly don't understand your comment that Lego trains are not heavy enough to maintain solid contact to the tracks., an issue I have never experienced, not even on 8 percent grades. If you operate long and heavy trains with only a few engines, the 9V engine wheels might start slipping - and you eventually risk to get the engines destroyed. But that is something else. PS: The only thing I have used from the PF system are lights and extension cables (front- and tail lights as well as illumination of wagons on some trains: EN, IC and HE). These lights are connected with 9V batteries and switches which provide good and constant lighting. I was never happy with the 9V lights connected to the 9V engines. Why should lighting change when changing speed? However, and at least for my taste, the PF light system is very clumsy and requires a lot of - not to say too much - space.
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Thank you very much! These trains look great! I will get back to you with a separate PM. Today will be a busy day. Swedish Television will visit me to make a news report about the layout and some trains!
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Vielen Dank! What about my PS2?
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Interesting that it took such a long time until somebody brings up PF in this context. Back in 2014 when I had a testing layout on floor level with one climbing spiral, a friend of mine visited me and brought his own Dm3 and (a short) iron ore train with him. At that time, he only used PF and to his great disappointment, it didn't work at all. He could hardly get the Dm3 alone through the climbing spiral. Now he has completely converted to 9V and abandonned PF. When it comes to this kind of layout with gradients, there is no way that PF can cope with these extreme challenges, no matter what kind of train you select. I guess it's really up to you to decide what train product line to go for. That decision must obviously be based on your own requirements, specifications and expectations. (As I mentionned in one of my previous replys, I am too much biased after 25 years with 9V to give you any "neutral" advice. However, to convert to PF has never been on my mind.) Remember, it's never too late to convert to 9V..... PS1: I have to appologize for my ignorance, but what is the difference between an EMU and an "articulated locomotive" ...? PS2: It is really not often that I get replies from Swiss colleagues in this forum. I noticed that you are Swiss so let me take up a totally different subject: Being Swiss myself (Basler) and a great fan of Swiss trains, my dream still is to have a Swiss train in my Lego train collection and to run it in my "own" alps! To build such trains - particularly from Stadler - is most likely rather difficult. Some years ago, I tried to get in contact with members in LUG Switzerland, but without success. Stefaneris, could you give me a hand? I would love to get in contact with somebody who has built som nice Swiss trains.
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Personnaly, I find this set disgusting because I don't share the violent values that go with it. I would appreciate if you select another - alt. open a new - thread for further discussions re this set.
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Having been a management team member myself in a multinational company, I wonder about the decision process(-es) - and the kind of management people involved in these processes - at TLG. Yes, I remember that TLG was close to going chapter 11, but that alone cannot explain several of the strange - to put it least! - "strategic" decisions w.r.t. to Lego Train product lines. I guess there are some common denominators: short term thinking, planning and commitment as well as lack of medium- and longterm strategies. In addition, a lack of industrial mindsets as well as lack of management skills and professionalism. I also sense a poor attitude - to say the least - towards Lego train customers' loyalty, needs and interests. Still remember the very strong reactions among the US 9V communities ("Save the 9V product line"!) after TLGs decision to discontinue the 9V product line. (TLG apparently did not care about pre- and post damage management, i.e. turning bad news (from a customer point of view) into new opportunities and continued customer loyalty, something that certainly is not happening just by itself or with amateurs in key decision positions...) I am simply at a loss of words when thinking about the fact that prior to the launch of the 9V product line in the US, TLG apparently did not perform necessary and comprehensive analyses re. compliance of the 9V product line vs US laws! And this in a situation with the legal issues re. the 12V product line in fresh memory ... You get the impression that TLG itself is some kind of a playground where you signal thumb-up or thumb-down everytime somebody walks into the room with a proposal on what should be next.... And in the background there is a financial guy telling you whether this proposal is feasable or not from a short term profit and cashflow point of view ... What you have to keep in mind is the fact that ultimately, it is your customers that make the final decision. And once they have walked away and turned their back to you (because they are no longer happy with the bones being thrown at them), it will be very difficult to get them back. Brand loyalties are no longer as strong as they used to be, not even for LEGO. And competition is fierce ... As I said before, from a 9V perspective this is all history...
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Reading your comment makes me believe we both think entirely along the same lines. I guess the points are made and I really feel it's high time to get out of the gloomy mood. Let me get back to this project and share with you one of the strongest memories I take with me. Already when I started the first threads about the 9V Extreme project - both on Swebrick and Eurobricks - I was surprised and impressed by the interest and the commitment to support and encouragement from the very beginning. This project has been ongoing for several years an has come to stop several times because of challenges - particularly in the area of electrics/electronics - where I felt lost. The installation of 1000 meters of cable was another close show-stopper... Yes, I had a lot of hands-on and mental support from my family, but also from Lego colleagues in the 9V community who shared their knowledge and experience with me. I will remember this for the rest of my life. So keep in mind: you'll never walk alone! PS: This is a long shot - but the theme "You'll never walk alone" reminds me of the fans of FC Liverpool. Start this video, close your eyes, just listen - and imagine there were 90 000 AFOLs singing on the stands... Goose bumps are guaranteed...!
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The reasons behind TLGs decision to abandon the 9V system are still rather unclear to me. Rumors say that US authorities threatened TLG to take legal actions because the 9V system did not comply with some US laws. Whether this is correct or just an excuse to shift to something more profitable - the lousy PF system (what a downgrade!) - I don't know. Anyway, this is history. Referring to your thread - 2018 Lego Trains - I am not optimistic at all. The way TLG "celebrated" the 50th anniversary of Lego trains last year was a shame. I simply haven't seen any indications or strategy for longterm investments in the Lego train product line. Some generic sets now and then - to (hopefully) keep the train freaks happy - but much more important, to cashcow this segment as long as possible. I hope I am wrong but with the current "strategy" I am afraid that this shrinking segment sooner or later will lose its remaining attraction, both among Lego train fans and for TLG, primarily for financial reasons... And keep in mind, competition internally (financial benchmarks) and externally is huge. Speaking as a 9V oldtimer, I think there is still hope. There is plenty of stuff available on the market (incl. RC trains that can be converted to 9V) which provides continued possibilities for new MOCs, dream layouts and nice train experiences, with or without 3rd party solutions. And there still is a global and active 9V community! I am proud to be a member of it! PS: There were articles in Swedish media some time ago observing a high - and increasing - share of violence in Lego sets over time. Just a cynical thought: if this is a conscious strategy, maybe the train product line is simply not violent enough for TLG ... It seems like TLG - like many other toy brands - consciously and increasingly invests in and exploits the strong correlation between violence and profit/profitability (most likely at the expense of the train product line) LEGO - quo vadis?
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The 180 degree curves are not the problem/risk areas. Initial tests on floor level back in 2014 indicated no problems whatsoever to get the iron ore train all the way through the climbing spirals. When experiencing major problems over the past weeks, I realized that the testing environment did not properly reflect the actual conditions on the 9V Extreme layout. The majority of incidents occured in the top right corner, i.e. in the sections marked red on the scheme (ramp-flat level-climbing spiral-high speed track): As you can see in the film, the iron ore train - due to its length - moves in all four sections at the same time. Forces and tensions change constantly when passing through this difficult part of the layout. Derailments occured because of dominating pushing forces from the rear part of the train alt. because of dominating pulling forces from the front part of the train. Despite the super magnets, there were also spontaneous decouplings. So one of the major challenges has been to find a train composition with balanced forces all way through these four sections (and other sections of the layout as well). It took me some time to realize that speed - in particular low speed - could be one reason behind these incidents. I surmised that one important success factor was to keep a high and even impetus - which reads more speed. It requires indeed some guts to increase from low to medium speed with this monster train in this challenging part of the layout... I also understood that the initial amount of 10 engines was not sufficient. After many tests, I ended up with 13 engines and the following wagon/engine sequence: Dm3 + 2 engines + 2 engines + 2 wagons without engines + 2 engines + 3 wagons woe + 2 engines + 4 wagons woe + 2 engines + 4 wagons woe + 2 engines + 4 wagons woe + 1 engine This combination works. Notice: 6 engines on the first five wagons after the Dm3 ...! However, the speed margins are still very small. As I mentionned before, to operate this train in this layout is very tricky and requires high focus and concentration. PS: Maybe sometime in the future, I will write a thesis about this project - MSc.Emeritus in Lego 9V ....
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Thank you so much for your appreciative comment. I was moved when reading your lines. You're absolutely right: this is ultimately about pushing imagination! I was smiling when I read your comment about myself and my way of acting as a train controller. The weeks prior to filming have indeed been strenuous - particularly when testing the iron ore train - with multiple derailments/crashes and - as a consequence - repeated and time consuming damage management on wagons and locomotives. So I learned the hard way and don't dare to take my eyes off this train for a second...
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Sorry for the question but what do you mean by EMU? I guess you are not referring to the bird nor the European Monetary Union ... Thanks for adding this nice video. I have seen the train in real life and it's absolutely breathtaking! This later Dm3 version in black, red and blue with the huge advertisement on the sides is not really my favourite. The older version in brown is truly a beauty! Starting in 2000, the train operator LKAB Malmtrafik AB has invested in 34 very powerful IORE locomotives from Bombardier. These locomotives - the strongest ones in the world - operate in pairs (Co'Co' + Co'Co') and pull up to 68 new 120 ton wagons. The total weight of such a train - excl. the locomotives - is 8160 tons (!) To be honest, 68 wagons are not on my agenda ... My extended EN train has 8 engines, the Rolling Road with 6 locomotives has 12 engines, the Track Cleaning Train with 6 locomotives has 12 engines, the timber train with 3 Da-locomotives has 10 engines, the coal train with an EN locomotive has 8 engines etc. Starting in 1995, I have built up a stock of 138 9V engines...
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The idea to start testing gradients came up in the mid 90s when the first 9V trains were included in my rather large Legoland layout. The issue of space - or rather lack of space - is a constantly recurring challenge when building with Lego, something that most of us have experienced. For me it was obvious that building a layout with various levels would be a true "space saver". And Lego 9V engines were considered as one of the strongest on the model train market (maybe they still are?). I also believed - and still do - that the 9V system has a tremendous potential. However, the response from some person at TLG was depressing - forget it, it's just a children toy. For many years, I managed to operate standard trains in gradients (up to approx. five percent) with up to four engines by synchronizing two standard 9V speed regulators, which was ok. But it was not until early 2011 when the idea of building something spectacular and unique came up - the vision to build a layout where you could run trains from floor to ceiling! The rest is already history. Pushing boundaries to the extreme and moving into unknown territories is indeed a fantastic journey - and the satisfaction after achieving the "impossible" is indescribable ... PS: Somebody also told me that this mindset might be an excellent way to prevent dementia ...
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Very few indeed. The last weekend in October, we spent ten hours on filming and taking pictures. Prior to that weekend, I had spent many, many hours on testing - and modifying - the iron ore train, primarily speed, number and sequence of engines (a reduction of length and/or weight has never been on the agenda). The room dimensions are 5.5 x 7.3 m. And approx. 20 square meters are still available ....
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I think you made absolutely the right decision to go for the 9V system (I might be somewhat biased ...) Even though Lego has discontinued to sell this system, you can still find quite a lot of sets, parts etc. on the internet, not only through BrickLink. Good luck with your project!
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The Dm3 - legendary Queen of the Swedish Iron Ore Train. Picture taken at Narvik station in Norway. Iron ore train passing Norddals Bridge on its way from Kiruna to Narvik.
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Yes, they are just snapped on.
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There are some 20 schemes and more than 100 versions... This scheme shows level 195, the climbing spirals and the high speed tracks on level 216: As you can see, there are two loops - including the climbing spirals - that go all the way around the room. There are passing sidings on level 195 and on level 175 (where the post train is parked in the video). That makes it possible to operate four trains simultaneously and independent of each other: One on each loop on levels 195/216, one from the train station level up the vertical climb to the siding on level 175 (back and forth) and one between rail yard level and train station level (back and forth). This however requires more hands... The possibility to operate four trains simultaneously has been one of the key requirements for this project from the very beginning. PS: I really love your rods on the Dm3 and the two ENs!
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1. I had many discussions re cabling to provide track power. My initial plan was to solder cables directly to the rails but was strongly dissuaded from that approach. Even though I have also experienced decaying of 9V cables, I finally decided to go with the 10078 power connections. To be honest, it was not easy to find 52 of these items... The 9V cables are then connected to the RK cables 1.5 sqmm (using Märklin pins and sleeves) all the way to the cable terminal. The longest distance is approx. 23 m without any loss in voltage. 2. The 9V single crossover tracks are track modifications I made myself. There is an excellent modification instruction by Ondrew J. Hartigan that should be helpful (don't get deterred, it's actually not that difficult): 3. Some years ago, I found round super magnets (10x1 mm) on the internet. They fit perfectly on train buffers with sealed magnets and are indeed very strong. No more spontaneous decouplings. 3 The super magnets are actually so strong that I initially experienced some difficulties to decouple in a controlled way. Therefore I made this "decoupling scissor" which works perfectly! Please feel free to come back if you need further help/advise. And don't forget to keep us posted on the progress of your own dream layout! PS: Cool to hear from somebody who is determined to invest longterm into the 9V system. There ain't so many more 9V freaks around in the country where I live, at least not to my knowledge.
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The LM350T regulator provides 3A at most, at least according to specification (compared to approx. 0.9A for a standard LM317 regulator). In practice, it's a little more. The 9V engine requires approx. 350 mA at maximum speed. To run 13 engines at medium speed requires approx. 2.6 - 3.5 A. Keep in mind that you must upgrade your speed regulator with a feasable heatsink (I have chosen heatsinks with a thermal resistance of 1.9 K/W) and you must replace the four diodes to 3A diodes. I would also recommend to install a mini-fan in order to prevent/control high temperatures inside the box. In the case of the Iron Ore train, temperatures measured on the outside heatsink peaked at approx. 45 degrees and inside the box at approx. 30 degrees Celsius. In addition, you need a more powerful power supply unit. If you plan to operate your engines/train on a flat level, there should be no problem. Operating a very heavy train on a track with gradients may require more power, maybe 4A. That's why I synch two speed regulators when operating the Iron Ore train uphill. In my track - considering the gradients - the distance between power connections to the rails is approx. 2.5 - 3.5 meters.
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Thanks. Some comments about the filmproject. This has been a fantastic teamwork with two guys who had never heard about Lego trains before. Both are physicians and colleagues to our younger daughter. When they saw pictures from my 9V Extreme project, they both became fire and flames and promised to participate in the film project. One of them made a special music arrangement just for this film! The equipment used was a Canon 7D Mark II (mainly for pictures), two GoPro Hero 4k cameras and a DJI Mavic Pro drone with 4k camera (the drone could not be used in flying mode because of severe turbulence under the ceiling) And yes, there will be more pictures and more films ....
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As I mentionned under "Technical data and details" on the first page, all speed regulators are modified. Each regulator is used for a specific segment of the track which makes it possible to run four trains simultaneously and independant of each other. So this train with its 13 engines is operated by one regulator in each segment. As you can see in the video, I sometimes use two regulators (B and C) in synch in order to provide a smooth transition between the segments. This also provides additional power which is necessary uphill. I am not sure if this is such a great idea. Before I added the super magnets to all train couplings, I experienced several spontaneous decouplings in the ramps. With gradients of 8 percent, the wagons accelerate very quickly and in most cases don't make it through the first 180 degree curve - even without a mounted camera ...
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The Swedish Iron Ore Train consists of 24 fully loaded wagons and a Dm3 locomotive. The train is equipped with 13 (!) 9V engines, has a total length of approx. 6,4 meters and a total weight of approx. 11 kg (!). I think this is how far you can stretch it w.r.t. "extreme". This train has been - and still is - a borderline project all the way. To operate it on this layout - particularly uphill - is very tricky.
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After a long summer- and autumn break it is high time to live up to the promise I made back in June - videos. Together with some new pictures, I have added a link to the first 9V Extreme video on the first page of this thread. Have fun - and hold your breath!
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I remember those days very well - two and a half years back in time ... A skilled enough person in soldering and electronics could do the modifications by himself/herself, absolutely. I am not such a person, and I certainly don't have the right soldering tools to do it. I got in contact with a young guy who runs a small shop in Electronic Components and who did an excellent job for me at a decent price. The heatsink chosen back in 2014 with a thermal resistance of 3 K/W did not perform according to my expectations. I did not like the idea to have a heatsink close to my fingertips with a temperature beyond 70 degrees Celsius. So I changed to a version with a TR of 1.9 K/W. I will be back with videos after summer. That's a promise!
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On June 16, my wife and I will move to our summerplace where we will spend the summer until mid of September. The coming week, we will both be busy with all the preparations for this move which means that there will be no time for preparing more pictures, movies etc. This will have to wait until after summer. However, I will have access to Internet so you are all welcome with your comments and questions.