Haddock51

I am still very hesitant/reluctant to the entire PF concept, not just because I have invested a lot in 9V over the past 15 years. As you can read in my other topic "9V Extreme", I am planning to set up a huge display later this year with a total track length of approx. 175 m - incl. a double high-speed track of 2x25 m - with 4 levels and inclinations of approx. 8 percent (total altitude diff. approx. 150 cm). I don't know how PF would work in such an environment, and I don´t know about the difference in strength between a 9V engine and a PF XL engine, but I just dislike the idea of worrying all the time about batteries. How long would a set of batteries last to pull a 1,5 - 2 kg heavy train several times all the way up and down to/from the top? The total weight of the extended Horizon Express is 3 kg ... To pull a 50 car train on a plain level is one thing, to pull heavy trains on a track with 8 percent inclinations is something very different - just think about the magnets. To solve the 9V power supply issue, I will have double 9V transformers for the various sections of this track, with power connections soldered directly to the rails each 5 m. Tests and experiences so far have shown that it works and the trains run smoothly. Maybe I can find stronger 9V transformers that are compatible with Lego 9V and 9V rails. Most of my trains are equipped with double 9V engines, the extended Horizon Express, the Santa Fe Train and the Track Maintenance Train with four engines each - all in all about 50 engines ... To switch to PF would cost me a fortune, for what benefit?

Thanks Selander. I keep thinking of the other pieces in this big jigsaw puzzle ...

Thanks kieran. There have been several comments and proposals on the theme railcleaning (which was not even part of the original Rail Clean Train). I guess the fundamental issue is that you need real pressure - and friction - on the rails to get any cleaning at all - just like when you do it manually. The concept with cotton pads seems to work ok (I haven´t used any chemicals so far, but it would probably make a significant difference). To get that pressure - and to avoid derailings at inclination edges - I loaded the railclean waggon with 400g of iron rods. I think this still is the easiest - and most likely the cheapest - approach. The combination of high friction and heavy load - not to mention the inclinations! - requires a lot of engine power. Since I don´t have these inclinations in place yet, I will have to wait for the ultimate test. However, intuitively, I sense that I will most likely have to split this train into two units, operated with two 9V engine powered locomotives each.

The tests showed that I need additional power to get this train moving. Therefore I added the cargo locomotive from set 4564 with additional two 9V engines. The test results were amazing ...

Todays test results: The two 9V engines did not manage to pull the train, Most likely because of the weight and/or the resistance due to the brake-effect of the railclean waggon. I added the cargo locomotive from set 4564 with another two 9V engines which solved the problem. However the question remains whether this will work once this train has to cope with inclinations. Most likely, I will have to split it up into two entities. The waggon sequence turned out to be suboptimal. The railbrush is simply too efficient (?) and collects the dust - in this case the cotton - itself. So I had to put the railbrush waggon after the vacuum cleaner waggon. Conceptually this means that the rotating railbrush is supposed to "pre-treat" the metal rails prior to the rail cleaning (and/or to brush up remaining parts to be blown off by the fan). At least this is the best story I can come up with.... To test the vacuum cleaner, I used small cotton pieces which actually have several similarities with dust - and are easier to video.... The result was amazing - everything was sucked up! So take a glass of beer, lean back and watch Lego doing the job - simply awesome .....

It is rather tricky to fix cotton bars to lego plates. In the case of the railclean waggon, I had to glue them to the plates (you can´t even drill a hole through the cotton bars because they dissolve). W.r.t. the vacuum cleaner, it is even more difficult given the large hole and the structure under the plate. The space is just too small for double sided tape. If you want to tape a round cotton bar, you certainly need quite some contact surface. Probably, I will make a try with zap-a-gap (my absolute favourite glue when it comes to modifying lego parts, in particular rails), but again, gluing space and contact surface will be the key issue. And then there is of course the question if there are other ways to narrow that space, i.e. to get the vacuum cleaner sucking closer to the rails. Any advice is welcome. Thanks Locomotive Annie. Yeah, I am not sure I would apply for such a job - scouting for dust in the midst of all dust, and a lot of noise ....

I tried flour but it´s actually too heavy, even to blow it off the track. I used coloured confetti (in very small pieces) and most of it was sucked up - and almost all of the remaining pieces blown off the track.

Considering the extended Track, Ramp and Shelf Maintenance Train even more wacky and weird than the Rail Clean Train, I would like to enter the extended version instead of the previous one under category 3 "Rolling Stock".

Based on the comments I received on the Rail Clean Train, I decided to finetune the Vacuum Cleaner Waggon and to build two additional waggons. The extended version - The Track, Ramp and Shelf Maintenance Train - consists now of: * a slightly modified locomotive (set 7939) with two 9V engines (450 g) * a railbrush waggon with metal load (260 g), max whidth: 8 studs * a vacuum cleaner waggon with a 6V mini vacuum cleaner ( 290 g), max whidth: 7 studs It sounds like a lowflying aircraft .... * a rail clean waggon with two vertically flexible cotton bars mounted on holders with springs (to manage inclination edges), and a load of iron rods (400 g), max whidth: 8 studs * a ramp and shelf clean waggon with a 12V axial fan and a Maintenance Control Team - or even better: The Dust Scouting Squad! - at the very end of the train (280 g ), max whidth: 8 studs Total train length: 106 cm Total train weight: approx 1,7 kg This weekend, I will set up a small test display and take some videos. Preliminary tests with very small confetti showed that it works ..... To quote Shakespeare: A lot of Noise for (almost) Nothing ....

I would like to enter my MOC Rail Clean Train with Vacuum Cleaner and Railbrush in the Wacky and Weird Locomotive Challenge under category 3 "Rolling Stock".

Having read several comments - including yours - has triggered a lot of thinking. It seems like I am stuck with the idea to build a track cleaner waggon ... If I disregard the entire topic related to chemicals, there are a couple of technical challenges. The most difficult one is to combine the need to get the cleaner pushed to the rail and to make it vertically flexibel. This will be necessary to cope with the inclinations (approx. 8 percent), i.e. when the waggon reaches the end of the inclination and enters a plane level. At this point, the distance between the rail and the waggon platform decreases slightly - depending on the length of the waggon and the distance between the wheels. With a fix cleaner axle, the waggon will be pushed up and will derail. I am not so familiar with all the Lego parts, particularly not with Lego Technique, but are there parts with springs? I also believe that the cleaner has to be horizontal, i.e. with a 90 degree angle to the rails. Why should I bother to clean the inside of the rails? For a 9V engine, it is critical that the top of the rail is clean and polished.

Thank you zephyr 1934 for sharing your experiences and your advice.

I will set up a short test display and take some action pictures, probably with the High Speed Camera Waggon (even though I don´t believe that a Rail Clean Unit should be operated as a high speed train...) Yes, I guess we are all eager to see how/if it works. But whatever the results will be, at least I have to keep in mind that the 2x25 m high speed track will be mounted on 25 cm wide (plexiglas) shelves which means that there will be dust left between and aside the tracks - and you will most likely see it through the plexiglas sooner or later ... What maybe is most important is the fact that dustfree tracks will have a positive effect on rolling stock in general and engines in particular. But this is about so much more! Think about the feeling to sit with a glass of (whatever...) and watch - and listen to! - a train sucking dust!!! :classic: So maybe the ultimate dust solution might be a train equipped with an air compressor which simply blows all dust off the shelves and off the ramps ....? And then it´s all back in your own hands again....

I just added a comment at the bottom of my post. Is that ok or do I need to do something else/more?

Not yet. I need to fix a test display first - and also some dust .... I tried the vacuum cleaner on a table and it works quite ok. Mounted on a lego train waggon, the VC reminds more of a mobile nuclear power station - and sounds like a heavy truck ....

That´s a good question. I intend to polish all rails prior to setting up the track (just the cleaning will probably take several weeks...). The display will be permanently installed so I have to figure out new solutions for long term maintenance. If you have own ideas, please let me know! That´s a nice compliment, alainneke! Interesting idea with a traditional cleaner car - and the train gets longer and longer .... I got it through an auction on ebay.de You can find quite some mini vacu cleaners on the intranet, but I haven't found this one (which is actually the only model among those I found that fits lego train from a size point of view. I had to extend the lower platform by 2 studs). It's a "Batteriebetriebener Mini Staubsauger" imported by Georg Roth GmbH, Lebensmittelfilialbetrieb KG, Würzburgerstrasse 196/198, 90766 Fürth, Germany

The future 9V Extreme display with a planned track length of approx. 175 m, of which a significant amount of rails will be mounted on inclinations and at 2.2 m above floor level, calls for innovative maintenance solutions. This MOC is therefore truely need-based and will hopefully help to keep the track free of dust. The mini (?) vacuum cleaner with a total weight of 290 g is powered with 4 AA batteries. Max width: 7 studs. The railbrush waggon (total weight 260 g) is loaded with inbuilt metal pieces to push the brush against the rail and to avoid derailing. The brush rotates through friction. Max width: 8 studs. The locomotive is slightly modified compared to the original and equipped with two 9V engines. Total train weight is approx. 1.2 kg. PS: I would like to enter this MOC in the Weird and Wacky Locomotive Building Challenge, category 3 "Rolling Stock"....

Having been a 9V fan(atic) myself ever since the mid 80ies, I don´t see myself converting to PF, particularly after having heard about all this battery hazzles etc I was really surprised to read about your overheating problems with 9V. Most of my trains are equipped with double 9V engines, the Santa Fe and the extended Horizon Express - with a total weight of 3 kg - with 4 engines. I usually operate with double 9V transformers in synch. I have not experienced any overheating with heavy loads, not even with inclinations of close to 8 percent. Could you elaborate more about your experienced overheating? What do you mean by "massive loads"? (see also under topic "High Speed Camera Waggon - the first action pictures")

Thank you very much for this information! The main purpose with these tests was to get more knowledge and experience for the huge 9V Extreme project with significant inclinations and a total track length of approx. 175 meters (see topic "9V Extreme") that will start later this year. In this topic, I got a lot of imput re power supply and power connections. Some of the power connections will be as long as 15 m from the transformers which also raises questions re the size of these cables (I will most likely only use loudspeaker cables 2x1.5 sq.mm and solder them directly to the rails and directly to the transformers). I don´t know yet about the additional resistance due to the inclinations (approx. 8 percent) but in my previous display, I had no problems to pull up a 4 engine powered Santa Fe with 2 transformers in synch all the way up to the top with the same inclination (the major problem I experienced was the loss of speed due to long track distance and too few power connections). I am not an expert in electrics so I will need to learn more in detail how all these parameters are linked together. Just to give you one thought: How would you calculate torque, resistance, voltage and amps for a 4 engine powered extended Horizon Express (with a total weight of approx. 3 kg) to get it up inclination sections of 4m with 8 percent inclination? Where would you expect bottle-necks - and how would you overcome/prevent them? If the primary objective is to maintain constant voltage then it seems like I am back to the key question of number of transformers needed, or? I would really appreciate to get more facts and data on this equation.

The main train yard in my future layout will have only closed tracks with double entries which hopefully will solve some of the power supply issues there. Please watch the video under topic "High Speed Camera Waggon - the first action pictures". Running a unit such as the camera waggon with 2 engines and powered with 2 transformers makes a real difference - you can both see and hear it! I could also increase the speed considerably for the Santa Fe and the Horizon Express, both equipped with 4 engines (I refrained from maximum speed to avoid derailing in the narrow curves). Based on previous advice (see topic "9V Extreme"), I mounted power connections each 5 m which worked perfectly in terms of not loosing speed.

That´s indeed the basic idea with this camera waggon. Later this fall, when my new hobby room is ready, I will set up again my own Lego Land and two Lego Train 9V Extreme displays. I am really looking forward to taking action pictures in these environments! Hopefully, I will attend more Lego events in the future and get opportunities to use this unit in other environments as well. Should be no problem to use it together with RC/PF since the two engines can be replaced with bogies.

Thank you alainneke for your comments which are very much appreciated. As you can read between the lines, power and power supply remain the key challenges. I will have to get back to your previous comments re "9V Extreme" and this entire DCC theme. I would also like to study this personally on sight in order to get a better understanding of potential alternatives.

I think that would be difficult. The primary focus here is on action filming Lego trains, not the MOC itself. As you can read under the topic "MOC: High Speed Camera Waggon", there are several challenges both related to the camera and to the waggon, i.e. center of gravity. It would be sad to loose on some of the characteristics of the camera - a Contour Roam2 - with a super wide angle of 170 degrees.

See topic "MOC: High Speed Camera Waggon" started on 26 february 2013.