When Should City be Cancelled?

[Digger of Bricks]

16 minutes ago, pooda said:

What I'm saying is that all the explorers themes should be put under one title. It's called nationalizing. Arctic, Volcano, Deep Sea Divers, Space, Mining and Jungle would all unify under one theme called "LEGO Explorers". 

Man, I'd LOVE to see a distinct theme such as that nowadays, but I'm afraid those tropes and premises can only thrive currently by banking off of a preexisting theme's popularity, hence sitting under City's umbrella as subthemes. If that weren't the case, we'd have Adventurers and further in-house Space themes still with us. 

[The Brick Boss]

Truthfully speaking...and I speak from the heart on this. 

The idea of subthemes should be done away with. Once that's done, a major reshuffle/redo should be underway. More emphasis on buildings and infrastructure with some vehicles on the side. Heck! I'd even add random buildings like a news station or a school. That's what made the old Town theme so awesome. You know they won't sell but you make them anyway. Now kids are happy and some older fans may have some nostalgia from the way city sets used to be in the late 90s. 

[Digger of Bricks]

8 minutes ago, pooda said:

The idea of subthemes should be done away with.

How so? As in their reoccurrence, structuring within themes, or both? 

[Karalora]

I'm pretty sure that City is what most people think of as "core," default LEGO. It's not even a theme, as such. It's the un-theme--just the world we know, in the modern day, with regular LEGO people doing their LEGO jobs.

It ain't goin' nowhere.

[The Brick Boss]

1 minute ago, Digger of Bricks said:

How so? As in their reoccurrence, structuring within themes, or both? 

Both. Remember the Town/City Center theme from the late 90s to early 2000s? Everything worked together. There were no subthemes that separated the sets. That's what made it awesome. 

Everything about City will be great again. Kid fans will be happy because they still get emergency sets and adult/teen fans will be happy because nothing is emphasized over the other. 

2 minutes ago, Karalora said:

I'm pretty sure that City is what most people think of as "core," default LEGO. It's not even a theme, as such. It's the un-theme--just the world we know, in the modern day, with regular LEGO people doing their LEGO jobs.

It ain't goin' nowhere.

Nah. City is a Lego theme just like the others. Nothing different. 

[Karalora]

1 minute ago, pooda said:

Nah. City is a Lego theme just like the others. Nothing different. 

We all know that of course. I'm talking about perception outside the fan community.

[The Brick Boss]

Just now, Karalora said:

We all know that of course. I'm talking about perception outside the fan community.

Oh. Sorry about that. 

[Karalora]

It's all good. My point is simply that LEGO can't do without City, because City is sort of at the core of its mission statement. It's the foundation, the heart, the standard. There's a reason the hero of The LEGO Movie is a modern urban construction worker as opposed to a more fantastic character, even though the fantastic characters probably outnumber the normal citizens at this point. City--or Town or whatever you call it--is home.

[The Brick Boss]

2 minutes ago, Karalora said:

It's all good. My point is simply that LEGO can't do without City, because City is sort of at the core of its mission statement. It's the foundation, the heart, the standard. There's a reason the hero of The LEGO Movie is a modern urban construction worker as opposed to a more fantastic character, even though the fantastic characters probably outnumber the normal citizens at this point. City--or Town or whatever you call it--is home.

Very true. You can't get rid of City. But it needs improvement though. Like I said....do away with its subthemes for one thing. 

[Digger of Bricks]

19 minutes ago, Karalora said:

I'm pretty sure that City is what most people think of as "core," default LEGO. It's not even a theme, as such. It's the un-theme--just the world we know, in the modern day, with regular LEGO people doing their LEGO jobs.

I know the theme's popularity is founded upon its modern-day basis, but like I'd lamented here earlier, I do wish the City theme ventured outside of that modern context for the sake of giving some representation to recent decades past (the '20s, '30s, '40s, '50s, etc.), as I can't think of another preexisting theme outside of the Collectable Minifigure line (and maybe Creator Expert's Modular Buildings to a lesser degree) that could fulfill such a need. 

17 minutes ago, pooda said:

23 minutes ago, Digger of Bricks said:

How so? As in their reoccurrence, structuring within themes, or both? 

Both. Remember the Town/City Center theme from the late 90s to early 2000s? Everything worked together. There were no subthemes that separated the sets. That's what made it awesome. 

Well, despite not sitting under the spelled-out umbrella of Town, technically those sets are organized by many cataloging sites under subthemes:

Brickset - Theme: Town

And you know, being the neat freak that I am, I'm rather comfortable with umbrella themes and their subthemed structuring, as I wish more themes were actually consolidated in such an organized matter.

[danimarroquin]

Don’t think the city line would be even close to be cancelled , even more with the latest line of space which has amazing features . Truly city sets are a step up for the line this summer and seems for the years to come , and pretty sure they will sell well as always with the fire and police sets .

probably one year can take a break and make a little twist by making some ninjago city line sets . 

[The Brick Boss]

48 minutes ago, danimarroquin said:

Don’t think the city line would be even close to be cancelled , even more with the latest line of space which has amazing features . Truly city sets are a step up for the line this summer and seems for the years to come , and pretty sure they will sell well as always with the fire and police sets .

probably one year can take a break and make a little twist by making some ninjago city line sets . 

Ninjago is already ahead of you on that. 

But I do want to see what would happen if City took a break from emergency and explorers sets for one year. Instead focusing on vital civilian infrastructure and transport for that year. Two results would come out of that. Chaos from no police sets or high demands for a much bigger variety than we have now. 

Edited June 22, 2019 by pooda

[Aanchir]

23 hours ago, pooda said:

On top of that, you obviously have not been keeping watch recently. Police and explorers themes come out every year. They are never given a break. So yeah.

What I'm referring to by the infrequency of the police and exploration subthemes you suggest getting rid of to make room for the six you suggested is that each one shows up once and then typically doesn't show up again until three or four years later, if at all. You do not see the SAME police subthemes or the SAME exploration subthemes with the same frequency that existing medical/racing/roadside assistance sets do.

Say, for instance, LEGO does get rid of non-Classic Police and Exploration subthemes going forward, and it does (as per your argument) free up room for sets in the subthemes you want to see instead. How much room is that, exactly? Here's what you'd be getting rid of based on the typical pattern for Police and Exploration sets:

• one subtheme in 2020
• two subthemes in 2021
• two subthemes in 2022
• one subtheme in 2023
• two subthemes in 2024
• two subthemes in 2025

…and so on. You suggested six new subthemes, right? If you assume a 1:1 relationship between the subthemes you get rid of and the number you make room for, then it would take between three or four years to get through one wave each of all the subthemes you have in mind. So whichever you picked in 2020, it wouldn't be until 2024 that you'd have room for a second wave of that subtheme.

And something the less frequent Classic Police subthemes like Forest Police and Sky Police have in common with Exploration subthemes? They're not all that big — certainly not as big as the 9–10 non-polybag Classic Police sets that show up when it's that theme's turn in the cycle. On average, each of the non-standard Police subthemes and Exploration subthemes alike tends to get about 6 non-polybag sets in a wave.

How would getting about six sets for any of the subthemes you describe every three or four years be any better for buyers than getting fewer of those same type of sets more frequently, as described in my previous post? All it would mean is that people who want a medical-related set, or a racing-related set, or a towing/auto repair company related set, or a Downtown-related set, etc. might have LESS chance of one being available at that time, because there'd be a good two or three years between new waves of each of those subthemes.

23 hours ago, pooda said:

Arctic, Outback, Launch Command, etc were their own themes then. They were just subsidiaries of the town theme. It's a big deal because they are badged as City sets when they have nothing to do with City. That's what I'm saying.

If the logo that appears on the boxes is genuinely the only concern you have, then again I raise the question of how changing the logo of the subthemes you dislike (but continuing to release them as their own theme) would do anything to create enough new demand or production capacity to support the subthemes you want to see in their place. Realistically, if all that's changing is labeling, then it would seem that splitting LEGO City into two separate themes would also split the demand and production capacity for LEGO City between those same two themes.

Suppose you have a pizza box with six slices: four slices of cheese pizza, and two slices of pepperoni pizza. You don't like pepperoni, so you move those two slices into their own box. The first box isn't going to simply grow more slices of cheese pizza to fill the space left behind. The pieces you moved are just in a different box now, and they still have pepperoni on them.

It's the same deal here. If splitting a theme into separate themes based on subject matter could magically create create more total demand across the resulting themes than there was under a shared theme, then LEGO might as well have separate themes for "LEGO Police", "LEGO Fire Brigade", "LEGO Construction", "LEGO Airport", "LEGO Coast Guard", etc, instead of bothering to have a "City" theme at all!

9 hours ago, pooda said:

Both. Remember the Town/City Center theme from the late 90s to early 2000s? Everything worked together. There were no subthemes that separated the sets. That's what made it awesome.

Not sure that's a great example, considering that the current City theme is both more successful AND more popular than any of its late 90s or early 2000s counterparts ever were… Plus, this seems to contradict your earlier idea that if sets like hospitals or tow trucks or race cars are worth having, then they should each get a whole subtheme of related sets to support them instead of just appearing in an assorted categories like Town and Great Vehicles.

What it sounds like you're arguing now is that ALL sets in the City theme should vary on an entirely arbitrary basis, with no shared framework besides their urban setting to connect them with the others released alongside them. Which sounds like complete chaos for a theme that large

 

Edited June 23, 2019 by Aanchir

[KotZ]

1 hour ago, Aanchir said:

If the logo that appears on the boxes is genuinely the only concern you have, then again I raise the question of how changing the logo of the subthemes you dislike (but continuing to release them as their own theme) would do anything to create enough new demand or production capacity to support the subthemes you want to see in their place. Realistically, if all that's changing is labeling, then it would seem that splitting LEGO City into two separate themes would also split the demand and production capacity for LEGO City between those same two themes.

Suppose you have a pizza box with six slices: four slices of cheese pizza, and two slices of pepperoni pizza. You don't like pepperoni, so you move those two slices into their own box. The first box isn't going to simply grow more slices of cheese pizza to fill the space left behind. The pieces you moved are just in a different box now, and they still have pepperoni on them.

It's the same deal here. If splitting a theme into separate themes based on subject matter could magically create create more total demand across the resulting themes than there was under a shared theme, then LEGO might as well have separate themes for "LEGO Police", "LEGO Fire Brigade", "LEGO Construction", "LEGO Airport", "LEGO Coast Guard", etc, instead of bothering to have a "City" theme at all!

Not sure that's a great example, considering that the current City theme is both more successful AND more popular than any of its late 90s or early 2000s counterparts ever were… Plus, this seems to contradict your earlier idea that if sets like hospitals or tow trucks or race cars are worth having, then they should each get a whole subtheme of related sets to support them instead of just appearing in an assorted categories like Town and Great Vehicles.

What it sounds like you're arguing now is that ALL sets in the City theme should vary on an entirely arbitrary basis, with no shared framework besides their urban setting to connect them with the others released alongside them. Which sounds like complete chaos for a theme that large

I think you hit the nail on the head. To me, it seems like people are arguing over naming and the idea of sub-theme vs full theme. It's essentially semantics at this point.

[Aanchir]

6 hours ago, pooda said:

Ninjago is already ahead of you on that. 

But I do want to see what would happen if City took a break from emergency and explorers sets for one year. Instead focusing on vital civilian infrastructure and transport for that year. Two results would come out of that. Chaos from no police sets or high demands for a much bigger variety than we have now. 

Changing up a core product line with no idea whatsoever whether it would result in "high demands" or "chaos" is not how any competent business operates… LEGO doesn't make any decision that big without enough research and testing to have at least moderate confidence that it will result in a positive outcome. For all we know, they might have already done some research and testing into what the outcomes of a year of sets like you're describing would be like, and the results of that research and testing are what convinced them not to move forward with that strategy.

And mind you, all these suggestions are solutions to what from all appearances is a non-issue. From a financial standpoint, LEGO City is still the massive success it's been for over a decade now. And in terms of variety of subject matter, it's true that there are complaints about LEGO City not having enough hospitals, ambulances, banks, civilian boat docks, farms, shops, schools, parking garages, restaurants, train stations, grocery stores, etc. But in fact, none of those things have EVER been any less frequent in the City theme than in the other modern-day, minifig-scale themes like Town or World City that preceded it!

As such, the idea that LEGO City should focus less on X and more on Y generally boils down to a mere "gut feeling" that the types of "variety" that the person speaking ISN'T interested in — e.g. space centers, arctic expeditions, coast guard helicopters, fire stations, helicopter transport vehicles, police stations in unusual environments, off-road racing vehicles, private jets, train stations, etc. — can't POSSIBLY be as popular as the sorts of sets they'd prefer to see from the list above.

Maybe, instead, when LEGO seems to make the same decision again and again in their most popular themes, it's because those strategies have proven reliably successful. And maybe when they change strategies and the new way "sticks" for years to follow — for example, switching to a focus on complete train sets instead of individual train cars, introducing "people packs", introducing variants on the Police subtheme in the years between Classic Police waves, introducing exploration-based subthemes, introducing subthemes like Mining and Demolition to intermittently take the place of Construction when it's due for a new wave, introducing $100+ Town sets with a varied range of buildings and vehicles all in one box, etc — it's because when they DID take a risk on a new strategy that looked promising based on initial research/testing, it not only paid off at the time, but has continued to do so ever since.

[The Brick Boss]

8 minutes ago, Aanchir said:

Changing up a core product line with no idea whatsoever whether it would result in "high demands" or "chaos" is not how any competent business operates… LEGO doesn't make any decision that big without enough research and testing to have at least moderate confidence that it will result in a positive outcome. For all we know, they might have already done some research and testing into what the outcomes of a year of sets like you're describing would be like, and the results of that research and testing are what convinced them not to move forward with that strategy.

And mind you, all these suggestions are solutions to what from all appearances is a non-issue. From a financial standpoint, LEGO City is still the massive success it's been for over a decade now. And in terms of variety of subject matter, it's true that there are complaints about LEGO City not having enough hospitals, ambulances, banks, civilian boat docks, farms, shops, schools, parking garages, restaurants, train stations, grocery stores, etc. But in fact, none of those things have EVER been any less frequent in the City theme than in the other modern-day, minifig-scale themes like Town or World City that preceded it!

As such, the idea that LEGO City should focus less on X and more on Y generally boils down to a mere "gut feeling" that the types of "variety" that the person speaking ISN'T interested in — e.g. space centers, arctic expeditions, coast guard helicopters, fire stations, helicopter transport vehicles, police stations in unusual environments, off-road racing vehicles, private jets, train stations, etc. — can't POSSIBLY be as popular as the sorts of sets they'd prefer to see from the list above.

Maybe, instead, when LEGO seems to make the same decision again and again in their most popular themes, it's because those strategies have proven reliably successful. And maybe when they change strategies and the new way "sticks" for years to follow — for example, switching to a focus on complete train sets instead of individual train cars, introducing "people packs", introducing variants on the Police subtheme in the years between Classic Police waves, introducing exploration-based subthemes, introducing subthemes like Mining and Demolition to intermittently take the place of Construction when it's due for a new wave, introducing $100+ Town sets with a varied range of buildings and vehicles all in one box, etc — it's because when they DID take a risk on a new strategy that looked promising based on initial research/testing, it not only paid off at the time, but has continued to do so ever since.

Do you work for Lego? If not, I wouldn't jump the gun. I'll keep hope alive as long as I live and when I start my career with Lego (it's a plan of mine), I'm going to fix the city theme up good. That way everyone is happy. So yeah. 

[KotZ]

1 hour ago, Aanchir said:

Changing up a core product line with no idea whatsoever whether it would result in "high demands" or "chaos" is not how any competent business operates… LEGO doesn't make any decision that big without enough research and testing to have at least moderate confidence that it will result in a positive outcome. For all we know, they might have already done some research and testing into what the outcomes of a year of sets like you're describing would be like, and the results of that research and testing are what convinced them not to move forward with that strategy.

And mind you, all these suggestions are solutions to what from all appearances is a non-issue. From a financial standpoint, LEGO City is still the massive success it's been for over a decade now. And in terms of variety of subject matter, it's true that there are complaints about LEGO City not having enough hospitals, ambulances, banks, civilian boat docks, farms, shops, schools, parking garages, restaurants, train stations, grocery stores, etc. But in fact, none of those things have EVER been any less frequent in the City theme than in the other modern-day, minifig-scale themes like Town or World City that preceded it!

As such, the idea that LEGO City should focus less on X and more on Y generally boils down to a mere "gut feeling" that the types of "variety" that the person speaking ISN'T interested in — e.g. space centers, arctic expeditions, coast guard helicopters, fire stations, helicopter transport vehicles, police stations in unusual environments, off-road racing vehicles, private jets, train stations, etc. — can't POSSIBLY be as popular as the sorts of sets they'd prefer to see from the list above.

Maybe, instead, when LEGO seems to make the same decision again and again in their most popular themes, it's because those strategies have proven reliably successful. And maybe when they change strategies and the new way "sticks" for years to follow — for example, switching to a focus on complete train sets instead of individual train cars, introducing "people packs", introducing variants on the Police subtheme in the years between Classic Police waves, introducing exploration-based subthemes, introducing subthemes like Mining and Demolition to intermittently take the place of Construction when it's due for a new wave, introducing $100+ Town sets with a varied range of buildings and vehicles all in one box, etc — it's because when they DID take a risk on a new strategy that looked promising based on initial research/testing, it not only paid off at the time, but has continued to do so ever since.

Coming at this from a film/tv perspective, Aanchir is absolutely correct. LEGO does massive research into what is marketable and what isn't. Even stepping back from that, look at what's on TV and film. Cops. Primetime TV shows are filled with Cops of all sorts, from Law and Order, to Hawaii 5-0, to NCIS. We also have a tone of medical/hospital shows like Grey's Anatomy, New Amsterdam, and so on. How many construction based shows on the networks are there? Zero. How many on cable? Pretty much only on HGTV and those networks, which some people don't get, and if they do, they might not watch. How many shows on farmers? We've got Dax Shepard's new show, but before that? I'm struggling to recall. What about firefighters? I seriously can't think of a show on primetime networks that had a show on firefighters in the past ten years. There's Tacoma FD on TruTV, but that is the same as HGTV in this case.

Growing up in the States, kids get access to lots of ideas for jobs. Every kid wants to be a policeman=firefighter-athlete-builder-soldier-doctor hybrid when they're young. Those are people we tell them to look up to. Break that down into individual jobs and themes based on ease of LEGO's values. Police, easy to create sets. Firefighter, easy sets. Builder, easy sets. Soldier, never going to happen sets. Athlete, challenging sets due to not all sports having similar weight in various markets. The last time we had this was NBA with named people, as well as the NHL line. Now CMFs are generic sports people. We'll never get a full line in the near future. You can also look to the Dino Attack/2010 split for a similar thing, imo. Doctor, easy build.

Now, look at it from LEGO's idea of story, something kids have always looked at. You can argue older castle and pirate factions had clear good guys and bad guys, but I think those are still very much grey areas due to who was portrayed in the media as virtuous at the time. Police, very much clearly good (you can argue whether some cops are good or bad but that's a discussion not for this forum) with clearly defined antagonists. Firefighter, while definitely good, who's the bad guy, an Arsonist? How do you depict that in a set? Builder, who's the enemy of a builder? Weather? Opposing company? Athlete, yeah you have the opposing team, but how do you sell that without expensive licensing? With an in-house theme, it will get messy. Doctor, who's the bad guy? Cancer? So police and its various offshoots of Forest Ranger, Coast guard, etc. are easy, safe, and guaranteed returns.

LEGO will then experiment with stuff like Forest camping, arctic, etc. once they know they have a secure backing. Keep in mind, TLG nearly went under in the 1990s and were saved in part by licensing with Star Wars and their own in-house Bionicle, both themes that have clearly defined good guys and bad guys with a story. Police are easy to show who is good and bad. Doctors and construction, not so much.

If we get multiple police and its subtheme sets to allow us to have what I guess would be loss leaders, I'm happy. You could even maybe say the modulars fit in with the them oif City, even though they're labeled something completely different. Kids grow up. This is why we have so many similar books, shows, and films throughout the years. Also, brand identity is key.

1 hour ago, pooda said:

Do you work for Lego? If not, I wouldn't jump the gun. I'll keep hope alive as long as I live and when I start my career with Lego (it's a plan of mine), I'm going to fix the city theme up good. That way everyone is happy. So yeah. 

I worked for Merlin Entertainment (the people who run Legoland, Legoland Discovery Centers, Madame Tussauds, etc) for awhile at an LDC and a non LEGO property. At the LDC, they were very much into market research. We built things and did events we figured people would like from some research from us, Merlin corporate, and LEGO itself. If you can't back up your idea with research (not just in LEGO, but any environment), you'll have a tough time getting your idea through.

[Karalora]

One thing that's a little weird to me is how the exploration subthemes are always folded into City when, almost by definition, they don't take place there. At least the emergency services people are based in the city, even if a given year's subtheme has them traveling to the outskirts for whatever reason.

It would be interesting to see LEGO try out a greater variety of City subthemes, with different "draws" that don't necessarily rely on good guys vs. bad guys. It's easy for children to spin a scenario out of cops-and-robbers or a boat crash rescue, but it's certainly not the only way that children play. Here are some ideas I came up with for new/reimagined evergreen subthemes:

Highway--civilian vehicles and infrastructure that serves their drives, such as gas stations and truck stops. The draw: the vehicles themselves, especially if colorful minifig characters were included as the drivers. Sets could be things like a tractor-trailer (with transported goods inside), a sports car with a hotshot driver, a minivan with several minifigs and their vacation gear, etc.

Construction--construction equipment, construction minifigs and their tools, and half-finished structures. The draw: Creator-style alternate models!

Downtown--shops, cafes, and sidewalk scenes. This would be a very minifig-heavy subtheme, so the sets themselves might have to be a bit smaller, but on the bright side, they would fit right in with the Creator modulars. The draw: A wide variety of colors and shapes in the pieces used, in order to create quirky and interesting businesses.

And that's just a few ideas off the top of my head!

[The Brick Boss]

1 minute ago, Karalora said:

One thing that's a little weird to me is how the exploration subthemes are always folded into City when, almost by definition, they don't take place there. At least the emergency services people are based in the city, even if a given year's subtheme has them traveling to the outskirts for whatever reason.

It would be interesting to see LEGO try out a greater variety of City subthemes, with different "draws" that don't necessarily rely on good guys vs. bad guys. It's easy for children to spin a scenario out of cops-and-robbers or a boat crash rescue, but it's certainly not the only way that children play. Here are some ideas I came up with for new/reimagined evergreen subthemes:

Highway--civilian vehicles and infrastructure that serves their drives, such as gas stations and truck stops. The draw: the vehicles themselves, especially if colorful minifig characters were included as the drivers. Sets could be things like a tractor-trailer (with transported goods inside), a sports car with a hotshot driver, a minivan with several minifigs and their vacation gear, etc.

Construction--construction equipment, construction minifigs and their tools, and half-finished structures. The draw: Creator-style alternate models!

Downtown--shops, cafes, and sidewalk scenes. This would be a very minifig-heavy subtheme, so the sets themselves might have to be a bit smaller, but on the bright side, they would fit right in with the Creator modulars. The draw: A wide variety of colors and shapes in the pieces used, in order to create quirky and interesting businesses.

And that's just a few ideas off the top of my head!

Those I like. Why do I agree with you? 

Once again, the explorers themes don't belong. They aren't helping City's case. I know someone who works for the company and he believes that shoehorning them into City is pointless. I am a very harsh and exacting person. Things have to fit in perfectly and actually belong or I want nothing to do with it. That's kinda how I feel for City. 

In regards to the emergency sets; forest police/fire, swap police, mountain police and sky police felt forced. You can clearly tell that those were built simply for City to get a bonus - hence why the LC employee that I know told me that they didn't do very well. BACKFIRE!!!!! Elite Police and Prison Island didn't really do well either. But I actually like those. Though I would've called Elite Police - SWAT instead. Since that's basically what it was. 

I also love your ideas. It's about time the construction subtheme made a comeback. I would like a Downtown and a Civilian subtheme. But the one I really want to see is a subtheme that establishes the transit system in LEGO City. City has done very well with buses and they have so much potential with that. I know they can make a tidy bundle (perhaps as much as they make with police and fire sets) with such a subtheme. Kids love buses and trains too. 

In my opinion, they should've started doing this year's rescue theme instead of this year's police theme. The IDEA of sky police should've been axed for this year, making fire THE rescue theme for this year. I'd be all for that. 

2019 - Fire and EMS - I do wish they started doing the paramedic sets again. 

2020 - Classic Police 

2021 - Coast Guard (which also sells) 

...and it would continue to rotate like that. City would flourish even more with that. 

[Karalora]

Oh yeah, Public Transit would be a great City subtheme! Buses, commuter trains, even airport shuttles! Or here something that's started happening in my own city within the last few years: public-use bicycles and scooters, rentable by the hour. A bus stop set could include a few of those for variety.

One thing I'm coming to realize as I brainstorm is that in an ideal City overtheme, there will be some overlap of subthemes. I mentioned airport shuttles above, and Airport would be another awesome subtheme which would then overlap with Public Transit because of the shuttles. Construction easily overlaps with Downtown. Firefighters can overlap with almost anything because a fire can start anywhere. And that's perfect, because a real city isn't a collection of discrete ideas that happen to share space, but a kind of ecosystem.

And maybe that's what you meant by eliminating subthemes? Eliminating the artificial divide between different urban activities?

Anyway, here are some more ideas I came up with. These would not necessarily be evergreen, but "one-off" or experimental lines:

Carnival: Rides like the ones in Creator, game booths, etc. The draw: Mostly the novelty. Visiting a carnival is its own kind of fun.

City Park: Open outdoor spaces with trees, fountains, playground equipment, etc. The draw: all those lovely plant elements and small feature builds like benches which can be easily transplanted into other sets and scenes. Could also segue into a Campground concept.

Airport, as mentioned above--big and small planes, helicopters, radar towers, luggage carts, multilevel terminal builds made primarily of windows!

[The Brick Boss]

6 minutes ago, Karalora said:

Oh yeah, Public Transit would be a great City subtheme! Buses, commuter trains, even airport shuttles! Or here something that's started happening in my own city within the last few years: public-use bicycles and scooters, rentable by the hour. A bus stop set could include a few of those for variety.

One thing I'm coming to realize as I brainstorm is that in an ideal City overtheme, there will be some overlap of subthemes. I mentioned airport shuttles above, and Airport would be another awesome subtheme which would then overlap with Public Transit because of the shuttles. Construction easily overlaps with Downtown. Firefighters can overlap with almost anything because a fire can start anywhere. And that's perfect, because a real city isn't a collection of discrete ideas that happen to share space, but a kind of ecosystem.

And maybe that's what you meant by eliminating subthemes? Eliminating the artificial divide between different urban activities?

Anyway, here are some more ideas I came up with. These would not necessarily be evergreen, but "one-off" or experimental lines:

Carnival: Rides like the ones in Creator, game booths, etc. The draw: Mostly the novelty. Visiting a carnival is its own kind of fun.

City Park: Open outdoor spaces with trees, fountains, playground equipment, etc. The draw: all those lovely plant elements and small feature builds like benches which can be easily transplanted into other sets and scenes. Could also segue into a Campground concept.

Airport, as mentioned above--big and small planes, helicopters, radar towers, luggage carts, multilevel terminal builds made primarily of windows!

Yes! Eliminating the artificial divide was what I was talking about. 

I also love those ideas, especially the carnival subtheme. They have a fairground people pack. So a carnival subtheme had so much potential. 

I love the idea of subthemes overlapping each other. I was thinking about also adding a transit police set to the Metro Transit subtheme - which will extend police services to the transit system like they do in real life. Of course airport will need airport security and the park will need its rangers on horses. Now marketing police in that way I don't have an issue with. But that would just be set dressing. No emphasis. 

Edited June 23, 2019 by pooda

[Karalora]

In my concept, subthemes exist, but more to help people find the kind of models they like, as opposed to the kind of scenarios they can create with them. Do you like building cars and trucks? Go for Highway. Do you prefer simple, easily reworkable structures? Construction. Do you want more trees? City Park. I guess in this one, police and fire personnel would be more like "guest stars." A police chase scenario would be part of Highway since it would involve cars. A trash fire with firefighters would be in Downtown, since that's where you get the big trash containers. A paramedic rescue scene could be framed as a building accident, hence Construction.

And I suppose that this would leave room for Coast Guard as a subtheme of its own since it could focus on boats. But maybe instead make it Harbor or Port, so you can have civilian boats as well.

Edited June 23, 2019 by Karalora

[icm]

1 - For many people who live in inland areas, concepts like "forest police," "swamp police," "forest fire," "mountain police", etc., are a lot closer to home than concepts like "coast guard", while for people who live in port cities, "coast guard" is closer to home.  For instance, I live in a metropolis of two million people that's nine hundred miles from the closest coast, but only ten minutes from the nearest national forest.  Smoke from forest fires frequently obscures the air in the summer, and sometimes people I know have to drive through burning canyons on their commutes.  Why should "coast guard" then be more valid as a subtheme of "City" than "forest fire" or "mountain police"?

2 - From a perspective of development and marketing, it's a lot more practical for Lego to include these modern-day playsets with aspirational careers for little kids (fire, police, medical, explorers) under the City brand than to develop a new logo, branding and marketing strategy, and set of unique characters for each one.  The "City" brand tells parents that a set is based in the real world, features happy people doing their jobs, and is mildly educational and aspirational for a kid who wants to grow up to be a police officer, firefighter, doctor, pilot, bus driver, race car driver, engineer, astronaut, naturalist, scientist, etc.  Take away that branding and parents will start to think these sets need more gimmicks to justify themselves - as an example, the 2007 Aqua Raiders theme is basically "Divers, but with lots of weapons and giant mutant sea creatures," while Friends is basically "City, but with variations that market research suggests will help it be more successful with young girls."  Exploration subthemes may not take place inside the metropolis, but as "real-world stuff that your kid may grow up to do for a living" they fit just fine with the City brand.

3 - If we concede that it's fine for subthemes to overlap with each other, and we're more concerned with "eliminating the artificial divide" between subthemes than with actually changing what gets released when, then what's the point in continuing this conversation at all?  Brickset classifies sets according to subtheme for convenience in the database.  Lego releases waves of City sets with similar content at the same time because it's more efficient from a production, marketing, and sales standpoint to design, produce, and sell a group of related sets at the same time than to release those same sets at intervals over several years or to design, produce, and sell more widely varied groups of sets at the same time.  But you won't find any distinction between "subthemes" in the sales page at Shop at Home, for example.  So what's the big deal?

Edited June 23, 2019 by icm

[Digger of Bricks]

2 hours ago, pooda said:

Once again, the explorers themes don't belong. They aren't helping City's case. I know someone who works for the company and he believes that shoehorning them into City is pointless. I am a very harsh and exacting person. Things have to fit in perfectly and actually belong or I want nothing to do with it. That's kinda how I feel for City.

Tell me, did this contact of yours give any insight into why Lego chose to "shoehorn" those subject matters into the City theme? 

2 hours ago, pooda said:

In my opinion, they should've started doing this year's rescue theme instead of this year's police theme. The IDEA of sky police should've been axed for this year, making fire THE rescue theme for this year. I'd be all for that. 

2019 - Fire and EMS - I do wish they started doing the paramedic sets again. 

2020 - Classic Police 

2021 - Coast Guard (which also sells) 

...and it would continue to rotate like that. City would flourish even more with that. 

For me, the kind of "Rescue" subtheme I'd hope to see from City is one centered around post-natural disaster search & rescue, similar to 1998's Res-Q subtheme. 

[corasaur]

City just seems to be the brand for "kid's playsets set in approximately the contemporary real world." I guess lego believes this is a useful marketing umbrella. Maybe they'd feel pressured to ratchet up the wackiness if they made standalone exploration themes, and that someone believes they can only get away with making realistic scientist types under the city branding. 

The explorers sub-themes are really the only one I'm curious about, though. Other categories are whatever. Grouping police fire airports etc makes sense.

 

Though I do want more locations and fewer vehicles, ofc. So many sets contain tiny chunks of scenery I'd like and vehicles that I don't want to add to the vehicle hoard.