Bionicle 2008 Images and Discussion

[Visorak-kal]

Stylized Hauish mask. Darkened colors. Epic look.

Taste, Ikki. Taste. I love the Jaller Mahri mask, it is one of my favorites, but guess what? To me, it looks nothing like a Hau. Not one bit.

And Ikki, I am talking about the similarities you want. Armor pieces, pieces, etc. aren't what matter. I'm talking about Haus and Mirus and Kakamas; you can't really make the nuva look the same. And personally, why would you? I wouldn't want Nuva leg designs that were more poseable but near identical to the old ones. Remember; more new pieces means less variety. I'd prefer more varied Nuva rather than identical Nuva that looked more similar to their older counterparts.

More importantly, why? Why should they look similar? There are like millions of BIONICLE kids, and I doubt they are all like you and I. They are not 2001ers; they dont' know who the Nuva are, much less care what they look like. IF you joined BIONICLE now, would you go back and say, "OH, these new Nuva should look like those old ones did." No, I doubt you would. You make it sound as if this is betrayal; no, this is business. To make them look like the Nuva would have required new pieces; Rahkshi feet, Inika legs, none of those are near-like the Nuva. Why should they make new pieces at the risk of them being identical? We just left clones, let's not go back to them for the sake of nostalgia.

For you do Darkened colors equal help give an epic look?

Personally, I liked the darkened colors when they showed up with the Metru but I'm tired of them now. Its not that I like the brighter colors better but rather I like variety. I think Lego is getting better with that with the lime greens and translucent colors but I'd like some bright red, blue, and green pieces again as well.

Tahu, even in bright red, had a very epic look for me. I think good set design gives the epic look and different colors gives parts monkeys more to play with.

I guess I'm just hard to please.

Not hard to please, Tohst, you just have different tastes. I, too, am glad that the Nuva appear to have brighter colors. The dark green was never a favorite of mine, though I did approve of it on Nidhiki and Umbra. I like Lewa's new light green, and I love Pohatu's orange. Their designs are all different, regardless of whether they use Inika pieces. Same pieces do not equal same design. I also was getting tired of dark colors, which is why I liked Jaller, Hewkii, and Matoro Mahri. Brighter colors. Nocturn I also loved because of that.

And if you think about it, the new Nuva do have callbacks to the originals. Lewa's mask keeps that Toa of Air look, and he is tall and superior, unlike Kongu Mahri (my least-favorite Mahri). His Miru does remind me of the old Miru (not Nuva). Pohatu's mask is obviously changed, but i like the Vahi-like, so no complaints. And Kopaka's mask still has the telescopic eye-lens. They could have gone Matoro Inika and given him a symmetrical mask. Lewa Nuva, instead of having dark green, has his original light green. Kopaka Nuva still has white and grey. (Aha! Yes, the original Kopaka had grey, no change here. His old arms were grey, and so are his new ones.) There are callbacks, just perhaps not the callbacks you would have wanted. It comes down to taste.

I'll end with that, but you might want to read this quote I found from Greg with regard to a discussion of this on BZP. It seems a lot of them have fears that the Nuva will be destroyed. (Ah! Eurobricks and BZP agreeing on something! The horror, the horror! :-D j/k)

It is pretty neat, it reveals some things I didn't know about the Nuva' return.

There's a lot of sentiment on here that the Nuva should have been kept looking similar to the old Nuva, basically as a gesture to the old fans.

I think what is being missed here is that we already did a gesture to the old fans by bringing the Nuva being back at ALL.

The vast, vast majority of 2007 BIONICLE fans were 3 or 4 years old when the Nuva came out -- they don't remember what they looked like before or if they do, it's barely. So there simply isn't a big "nostalgia" market out there for BIONICLE.

BZP is 37,000 fans out of about six million total in the US -- and yet we thought of you first when deciding who the heroes would be for 2008. But thinking of you first makes less sense when it comes to set design, simply because of the sheer number of active BZPers who admit they no longer buy sets. Putting out a brown Pohatu might please many of those people, but it's not going to prompt them to take money out of their college fund and go buy him. And if they don't buy him, and the vast majority of the other 5.96 million don't buy him, we have a dud set on our hands. How does that benefit BIONICLE?

Bluntly, we're in business to sell sets and do what needs to be done to do that effectively -- not to make people feel warm and fuzzy about the past. We can't make business decisions based on nostalgia ... not unless we can throw the entire retail trade and customer base into a time machine and recreate the conditions of 2002 to insure the sets will sell as well now as they did then.

My priority is story, which is why I insisted the Nuva HAD to come back. My priority as far as set design goes is, do the focus groups like it and did it sell? (And the ironic thing about this topic is that there were probably people saying the exact same things 5 years ago when the Nuva were coming out ... that we were "destroying" the Toa Mata.)

Greg

VK

[Shakar]

Guess what? I love these new sets. I loved the Mata, I hated the Nuva. These new sets remind more of the Toa Mata than the latter, which is wonderful as far as I'm concerned. *sweet* And yes, Kopaka was white and grey! Thank for reminding me this. Now I like the dark bley on him much more. Lewa needs to have the dark bley replaced with dark green and he'll own.

Shakar

[Darkness Falls]

Ironic, because I found 2007 to be the best year ever. The designs were fantastic, and the characters were interesting.

On the by-and-by, has anyone noticed that whatever it is the Phantoka shoot opens up with little spidery things inside?

Also, if each Toa and Baddie gets a Matoran buddy, does this mean when the other six canisters are released they'll have small companions as well?

Apologies. However, it doesn't change the fact that the majority of people here, and on BZP, who hate these sets wish they could go back to the "old days".

And... interesting points made by Visorak Kal's Greg quote. Sadly true.

Edited October 10, 2007 by Darkness Falls

[Tohst]

I'll end with that, but you might want to read this quote I found from Greg with regard to a discussion of this on BZP. It seems a lot of them have fears that the Nuva will be destroyed. (Ah! Eurobricks and BZP agreeing on something! The horror, the horror! :-D j/k)

It is pretty neat, it reveals some things I didn't know about the Nuva' return.

There's a lot of sentiment on here that the Nuva should have been kept looking similar to the old Nuva, basically as a gesture to the old fans.

I think what is being missed here is that we already did a gesture to the old fans by bringing the Nuva being back at ALL.

<lots of good stuff snipped>

Greg

VK

Thanks VK for posting that.

Greg I find to be an interesting character. He seems pretty brittle for someone being the customer facing personna of the Lego group for Bionicle. But he is in a tough position where he is going to be the first line of complaints (and praise...the BZPower people for the most part have him up on a pedistal and thow rose petals at him) and having to be creative within the constraints of what the set designers throw at him.

But I have to disagree with him on a few things. Yes, they are in the business to sell product. Yes, many of the kids don't even remember the first batch of Bionicle. But its not much of a favor to us old folks to bring back the mata characters if all it is to them is a name. I agree that Pohatu and Lewa do harken back in the mask area but not Kopaka. Would a rounder mask that looked like his original and not his Metru replacement's mask really focus test worse? Would it really have hurt them to keep the overall new designs the same but add the things that stood out in the original releases? Kopaka's sword and shield don't playtest well?

Yes, the new kids today don't know these characters. But don't you use that as part of the marketing? The Original TOA are back to finish what they started! New kids buy for the body design and bazooka shooter. Old people like me who are going to buy everything anyway feel like a real effort was made. And maybe, just maybe, some kids that gave up on Bionicle a few years back buy one or two more sets because their favorite character is updated and -recognizible-.

See what I did there? That last argument? I'm not asking Lego to do me any favors. I don't buy their toys as a favor to them. I buy them because I like them and they sell them to make money. Well, basically, but thats what it boils down to. But that last argument is how they could've made more money. And maybe they thought about that but if so it doesn't seem to come through in Greg's message. A lot of time his messages seem to reduce to 'Be happy with what we're giving you. We always know better than you' and this one comes off the same way. And I have one response to that: 'Galidor'

-Tohst

[Visorak-kal]

My point and Greg's Tohst, is not that LEGO shouldn't please old fans, it is that they shouldn't worry about it.

And it brings up an interesting point about the complains of laziness by designers and other general complaints I have seen here and on BZP.

How do you know the designers didn't try to throw in old looks here and there? They apparently still kept Kopaka's eye design. Perhaps they liked this mask design and since the focus groups liked it, they kept it? Just because the design doesn't hearkent to Kopaka to you, doesn't mean that the designers didn't like it themselves.

Look at this way; we complain that the designers are lazy and so and so stinks and so and so should be better, and there are a million ways to do this better, etc. But if I was a designer, I would not stop until I was pleased with my final product. No designer EVER stops before he likes his product. I am writing a book; I write. And I do NOT stop writing and editing unless I like my book, my product. No designer can possibly think otherwise. My brother writes music, and he does not stop editing until he is pleased with his composition. My other brother plays basketball and he does not stop working on new moves unless he is pleased with them. Look at us: we're split here on who likes the new Nuva and who doesn't. The designers liked their final products and went ahead with them. The only way they would change those products is if the focus groups did not like them. Just because you or I don't like a mask or don't think it looks enough like the original character doesn't mean that the designers didn't care about making it look like that character; perhaps it just means that their tastes are different from yours or mine.

VK

[Tohst]

My point and Greg's Tohst, is not that LEGO shouldn't please old fans, it is that they shouldn't worry about it.

How do you know the designers didn't try to throw in old looks here and there? They apparently still kept Kopaka's eye design. Perhaps they liked this mask design and since the focus groups liked it, they kept it? Just because the design doesn't hearkent to Kopaka to you, doesn't mean that the designers didn't like it themselves.

VK

Aha. I disagree with you all over the place. I disagree with your interpretation of what Greg is saying. I disagree with your thoughts on the designers as well as what people are saying about the designers. I disagree with your conclusions. But I do think you have some good points and I appreciate your thoughts. I even appreciate our disagreement.

Oh, and I agree that some of this is my personal taste on what I, personally, expect out of, for example 'Kopaka'. But its definately in my best interests as a consumer to be loud and direct about what I like and what I believe. Which you may or may not agree with. ;-)

-Tohst

[Lord Thrawn]

My statement earlier about looking at ToM's work might point me out to be a naysayer but I actually like the look of the Newva. They're cool. Shall be a good basis for mods. I also like the grey on all of them as it looks uniform and armoured as a set of elite Toa should be. I'm glad they're done the sets like this.

[Visorak-kal]

Aha. I disagree with you all over the place. I disagree with your interpretation of what Greg is saying. I disagree with your thoughts on the designers as well as what people are saying about the designers. I disagree with your conclusions. But I do think you have some good points and I appreciate your thoughts. I even appreciate our disagreement.

Oh, and I agree that some of this is my personal taste on what I, personally, expect out of, for example 'Kopaka'. But its definately in my best interests as a consumer to be loud and direct about what I like and what I believe. Which you may or may not agree with.

See my point on taste. You disagree with my conclusions. I agree with them. :-D j/k. However, thank you for being so respectful! :-)

I actually like Greg, from what I see of his comments and personality through his posts on BZP and his blog. He seems to be a person who respects and appreciates fans (otherwise I doubt he'd stick around with over 50 PMs to him a day. He has no obligation to actually be there.) He consistently holds contests, lets us fans decide upon things we'd like in the storyline, and keeps throwing in old characters for us older fans. But, then again, he is also, from what I see, a realistic guy. He knows business sense, he knows you can't please everybody, and most importantly he knows how to keep us fans in our place. ;-) Overall, a likeable but smart guy.

My statement earlier about looking at ToM's work might point me out to be a naysayer but I actually like the look of the Newva. They're cool. Shall be a good basis for mods. I also like the grey on all of them as it looks uniform and armoured as a set of elite Toa should be. I'm glad they're done the sets like this.

Thanks for that post, Lord Thrawn. I was one of those who misunderstood your last one. I just think those Toa Nuva, despite several upgrades on poseability, are a complete downgrade from the designs we have been treated to since 2004.

I, too, like the grey on all of them. I see it like this; a Toa's armor is armor, exterior. The grey lends to a feeling that the outer armor is actually armor. Now we're seeing armor in colors like orange, light green, white, when we used to see all armor in basically silver. A little grey lends to continuity. Now, that's not to say I don't like the mix of red/orange on Jaller Mahri or white/electric blue on Matoro Inika. I love those combinations as well. But I don't actually see the grey as a bad thing. Except for the grey Lewa Nuva feet. I'm not sure if I would have preferred green feet, seeing as both Kopaka and Pohatu have feet that match their armor color.

Oh, and Greg has confirmed that Icarax will be a first-half 2008 release, but not a canister set to his knowledge! Go Titan Makuta!

VK

Edited October 10, 2007 by Visorak-kal

[Clonie]

And no one commented on my previous post.

[Visorak-kal]

And no one commented on my previous post.

It took me a while to find what post you were referring to. Sorry about that, I for one must have missed it! :-D

I find that the first Toa of each arc are the most original. For example, the Toa Mata were more original than the Nuva. The Toa Metru were more original than the Hordika. And then the Inika. Unfortunately the Nuva fall under the category of this story arc so they were doomed to have Inika parts.

So I expected this.

But then, it's not like they can't be improved just because they're similar. Look at, uh, every Mahri. They're all better individually than their Inika forms.

My opinions on the 2008 sets will be held until it matters for me to post them. It's still 2007. I'm trying to enjoy it. The last book isn't even out for crying out loud.

Now let me re-enact the un-mutated Hagah scene.

I have to agree with all that you said. But I don't really mind the Inika parts, I don't view it as a bad thing. The Inika armor parts are generic enough that they don't really impede upon the Nuva's look. Lewa looks, IMO, very nice with that light green armor. And from what I can see Kopaka's armor fits him pretty well too. The Mahri as a group were better than the Inika; each was different, so there was no risk of clone sets. My only gripe was the usage of backwards Piraka bodies on Hewkii and Hahli. I don't know, it seemed too armorless. On Kalmah it was okay, because he was like a squid, but on armored Toa it was too little.

I never try to get story spoilers for the next year. I intend not to go on the internet at all once the new comic comes out; this one I am waiting for in person. I think it was okay to look at sets this year; I had already accidentally found out that it was the Nuva, so the story there was already spoiled. And the looks spoil nothing. I too like to wait for the end of the year story before guessing about the next. I'm a story man myself. And I agree, Clonie, that we should save our final thoughts until the final sets/story emerge. I always do.

VK

[dviddy]

What I don't get is why the Toa Nuva need to look like the old ones. Why? What earthly purpose does it serve? Were the old Toa Nuva that good that we need copies that look like them in certain ways? I think the new Nuva look far better than the old ones did. They have more poseability, more function, cooler masks. If LEGO made ugly sets, then this would be the utmost betrayal. But they are not ugly, they are well designed in my opinion. I like them, and so this is not betrayal.

"Consistency is all I ask!

Give us this day our daily mask!"

The new Toa Nuva should have resembled the old Toa Nuva for sheer consistency. These are established characters, indeed, they are THE established characters for this 'book' of Bionicle. As the Nuva resembled the Mata, so too should the 'Newva' resemble the Nuva.

Now I agree that I don't think ToM's MOCs, as nice of an ideas as they are, should be what we are seeing in these scans. Those wouldn't work because they're TOO similar, and lack some of the points of articulation we've become accustomed to. The lack of elbows bugs me.

BUT-

They should have at least kept the colors. Green over lime, White over light grey (which they more or less did, thank goodness), BROWN over TAN. This would be a vital step towards character recognition. And it wouldn't be that hard.

And masks. I'm not the biggest fan of the Nuva masks (though I love the Miru Nuva, <3), but something that resembles either those, or the original masks. Something that when looked at you go "Oh, Lewa's wearing some sort of Miru." With the somewhat exception of Kopaka's mask, none of these do that.

And Kopaka. Where'd his shield go? Little things like this would go a long way towards character recognition. Is there something that was a trademark of the old sets? Keep it. Kopaka's shield, Pohatu's girth, and feet, etc. Give Kopaka back a sword, he's always had at least one, and he's not Kopaka without it.

By all means, keep the monkey proportions of the newer sets. Update the posability so they match today's standards. Give them knees and elbows. Give them necks. Hell, give them waists! Go the extra mile.

I'm all for that.

But for sheer consistency's sake, let them resemble the old Nuva in at least some regard!

And you're right, this isn't Batman. Because Batman's been around in so many mediums, has had so many toys, is shown as owning more than one version of his costume, etc. He's allowed to be different in each toy/medium. He's a friggin billionaire, he can pretty much do what he wants.

But look at him. Each one is clearly Batman.

And still he sells.

"Making the new Nuva look like the old one would be bad for business!"

Tell that to Batman. And Optimus Prime. And Star Wars. And Spider-Man. And...

<<DV>>

[Kynok]

Hey. Kinda of the current convo: When do the small sets usually start selling? November? I remember they came out that early last year.

Edited October 11, 2007 by Kynok

[Zarkan]

Well, you may or may not know what I think about Bionicle 2008, but let me say now that it looks like it's going to be a light year, Bionicle wise (thank goodness too: 2007 was a killer! *wacko* ).

I seriously dislike the new Toa Nuva. Kopaka may be the only one who is at least okay, and they still gave him wings and removed the shield. Lewas looks terrible with lime and a visored mask - and Pohatu is just :-X

Not that any of them are bad as far as canister sets go, but since these are supposed to be the Nuva, I take offense at how much they aren't, set wise. Pohatu is ORANGE and SILVER, for crying out loud! Oh, and they all have cruddy launchers that make the cordak look like the best idea ever. I actually like Zamor launchers, but this is just terrible. :-X

I don't blame the story team or GregF, of course. They have nothing to do with set design, and I kinda pity them right now, since they have such a poor lineup of sets to work a story out of. TLC seems to be the culprit, but I also see it partly the store chain's fault. Aparentely, Wal-Mart and Target are uneasy about selling the new Nuva just because they sold sets labeled Toa Nuva ONLY 5 years ago. :-|

Oh, and don't even get me started on the new baddies (Phantoka?). Who's idiotic idea was for them to carry energy balls filled with spiders in their waist areas? :-| Oh, and that doesn't even conisider the fact that the set designs look totally :-X

The only sets I like are the Matoran: cool masks and some good parts in new colors, and I will buy at least a couple for sure. :-)

So, overall, blah. At least the story looks like it will still be good, from what GregF has been revealing in his blog on BZP. Toa Nuva orgins back story is so on! *sweet*

[Clonie]

I meant this:

The explanation for the different look is actually very simple, basic and elegant this time around -- no complex transformations, no twisting the story into knots to explain it.

Greg

[Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn]

I have a question.

Why would retailers hesitate to sell a set that looks vaguely similar to one they sold years ago...

... but wouldnt hesitate about one that looks almost identical to the ones they've been selling the past two years?

[Clonie]

I know. I guess the same name does more damage than the same look...?

By the way Helden, i hrd u dnt gv a stf abut ur custmrs.

[Axonn's Fury]

Um, I found 3 pages to a retailer magazine that goes out to all the stores that will be carying the new Bionicle line....

Toa Nuva/Matoran/Phantoka/Toa Ignika

Toa Nuva

Phantoka

These are alowed on here right? Well anyway. These are clear pics of the 2008 Bionicles.

[Clonie]

Uh, yes, we know.

[InnerRayg]

I have a question.

Why would retailers hesitate to sell a set that looks vaguely similar to one they sold years ago...

... but wouldnt hesitate about one that looks almost identical to the ones they've been selling the past two years?

I've never understood why a store would ever even care. The target audience is long gone-heck, BZP is a perfect example, there's a few crusty oldies and pretty much everyone else is a new face. They say over and over the audience of today is completely new, that's why they did away with gears and whatnot. So they're not gonna care about how the Nuva look. Meh.

[JINZONINGEN73]

Tohst

post Oct 10 2007, 12:44 PM

Thanks VK for posting that.

Greg I find to be an interesting character. He seems pretty brittle for someone being the customer facing personna of the Lego group for Bionicle. But he is in a tough position where he is going to be the first line of complaints (and praise...the BZPower people for the most part have him up on a pedistal and thow rose petals at him) and having to be creative within the constraints of what the set designers throw at him.

But I have to disagree with him on a few things. Yes, they are in the business to sell product. Yes, many of the kids don't even remember the first batch of Bionicle. But its not much of a favor to us old folks to bring back the mata characters if all it is to them is a name. I agree that Pohatu and Lewa do harken back in the mask area but not Kopaka. Would a rounder mask that looked like his original and not his Metru replacement's mask really focus test worse? Would it really have hurt them to keep the overall new designs the same but add the things that stood out in the original releases? Kopaka's sword and shield don't playtest well?

Yes, the new kids today don't know these characters. But don't you use that as part of the marketing? The Original TOA are back to finish what they started! New kids buy for the body design and bazooka shooter. Old people like me who are going to buy everything anyway feel like a real effort was made. And maybe, just maybe, some kids that gave up on Bionicle a few years back buy one or two more sets because their favorite character is updated and -recognizible-.

See what I did there? That last argument? I'm not asking Lego to do me any favors. I don't buy their toys as a favor to them. I buy them because I like them and they sell them to make money. Well, basically, but thats what it boils down to. But that last argument is how they could've made more money. And maybe they thought about that but if so it doesn't seem to come through in Greg's message. A lot of time his messages seem to reduce to 'Be happy with what we're giving you. We always know better than you' and this one comes off the same way. And I have one response to that: 'Galidor'

-Tohst

EXCELLENT post, Tohst.

Exactly my point.

To do a tip of the hat to the originals is NOT to make guys with their name.

A respectful tip of the hat is to update their look, not crap them out your megablocks in every way possible (but better poseability).

Some of you are making it sound like it's somehow rocket science to jazz up an older design, like it's some monumental undertaking of some sort... which is flat-out kooky, it is.

There's a lot of sentiment on here that the Nuva should have been kept looking similar to the old Nuva, basically as a gesture to the old fans.

I think what is being missed here is that we already did a gesture to the old fans by bringing the Nuva being back at ALL.

Greg

GYUUUUUUH... I hate listening to him talk sometimes. So smug. So condescending. So talky-downy.

"Bringing them back" (lol) is ONE part of the TWO part package.

One. Bring them back.

Two. Make them recognizable (not be suckass).

To fall in the middle is a halfassed job and serves only to SOLIDIFY the disgruntled fans in their statement that the line's current execution blows.

Aaaanyway, removing the drama of whether they even slightly resemble who they supposedly are supposed to, as figures... well, I can't get into it.

I'm not mad that there was the Metru, Piraka or Inika, for those body types, while super-crap for mocs, at least added new parts to the Lego arsenal.

But man they need to go away already.

I'd probably like the upcoming wave if it was the first time I was seeing those same freakin' bodies.

But that's far from the case, yes? And all that silver... AGAIN. I was happy when Lego got more into weaponry, but DAMN. The sets are just a pile of blades. It looks like someone just jabbed a bunch of silverware all over them... and so sloppily in their execution... no flow of "design"... hardly any unique, individual aspects to identify with any of the characters...

UGH.. ...makes my head hurt...

But at least my wallet is safe from them. Maybe I'll go back to sculpting my own figures out of modeling clay again.

Edited October 12, 2007 by JINZONINGEN 73

[Clonie]

I'm not mad that there was the Metru, Piraka or Inika, for those body types, while super-crap for mocs, at least added new parts to the Lego arsenal.

But man they need to go away already.

I agree. I got tired of those chestplates with Nuparu Mahri. And now we get two more. That's two out of the three Toa. Oh well, at least the one Kopaka has remotely looks like Nuva armour... But really. I'd rather become an hero than see those thing appear in the next three. And would it kill them to make new limb pieces? We haven't had any new shins since the Inika. How many new parts are on these guys? I see four on Pohatu, two on Kopaka, and two on Lewa. Plus the blasters + ammo, which makes about 10-11 new parts on the new Toa. Wow. How impressive. Edited October 12, 2007 by Clonie

[Zarkan]

GYUUUUUUH... I hate listening to him talk sometimes. So smug. So condescending. So talky-downy.

He's right, though. Aparrently TLC might not have even made the Nuva return at all if it wasn't for him. And he's hardly the only one who talks smug; people here and at BZP have been doing it for years. It's a fact of life that things often sound smug when you don't want to hear what they say or dissagree with them. It's not anybodys fault, but what are you going to do? :-/

Jinzo, I know how you feel. We all know, but that doesn't change the fact that TLC is in control, not me, us, or even GregF (who only has some say in the process, but usually not much). TLC and the stores made the decision, Greg's just telling it. :-(

[Visorak-kal]

My, that's a lot of posts to sort through. Well, here goes with the response, lol:

DV:

You point out that they should retain old colors and have some recognition. Let us go over this point thoroughly this way I can state it all here and now.

1. We KNEW that Pohatu would not be brown. Brown does sell, therefore he cannot be brown.

2. What colors did Kopaka have? White and grey. I see white and grey on the new Kopaka.

3. What colors did Lewa have? Green and lime. (Lime was his legs/arms). I see the lime green on the new Lewa. So 1/2 there. He has lime green, just no green.

4. Kopaka's mask still has the eyepiece.

That is a few that I notice, off the bat. To take your points, one by one:

1. Kopaka's mask should be rounder.

Why? It keeps the eyepiece, does it HAVE to be completely round? I like this mask just as much as the Akaku Nuva. The only mask I like better is the Akaku, but then that is my favorite mask.

2. Keep the Colors

Lewa has some of his original colors, and Kopaka's colors are identical. Pohatu was obviously going to be different, so there is no point arguing that.

3. Weapons, Kopaka Shield, Pohatu Feet, etc.

Lewa still has a sword; it sems to be a larger, more upgraded version of his Katana sword. Compare. The Katana has a small, curved blade with bumps on the interior side. So does this new sword. Weapon similarity without an exact copy of the original weapon. Granted, Kopaka has no shield. Must we have everything? Pohatu with his feet would have been nice, I grant you. But I see it as no disaster; he keeps the tradition of having two identical weapons/hands. If you look at the small poster with the Kanohi Ignika background, you can see that Pohatu has two Hordika heads (interior) that hold onto those things which in turn hold his weapons. So he continues to have hands, just perhaps not as obvious as his old ones/claws.

4. Batman

That's the point, DV. Batman can look like he always does and still get away with it. From what I continually hear (from both LEGO and Greg Farshtey), stores are still trepid to have name AND looks again. I'm sure I don't know why. It has been five years, the fanbase has changed. But business is business; I don't know why stores are so hesitant, so I can only assume that the designers were pressured not to make clones with new poseability.

5. Preference.

To tell the truth, I see this only as a good thing. If I am going to spend my money on a BIONICLE 2008 set, I want a new set. I don't want Kopaka Nuva with knees and a near-identical Akaku Nuva. I want a new set. Give it semi-noticeable similarities, such as close coloring and a long eyepiece. He doesn't have to have the same weapons. Lewa does have a similar weapon, but I don't why he's got to.

See, DV, you're mixing up taste with what you think LEGO should do. I can look at these sets and find a great number of similarities to the Toa Nuva. Are they intentional? Who knows? But the point is that they obvioulsy aren't pleasing you. Just because there aren't the similarities YOU would want, or they aren't as similar as YOU would want, doesn't mean they are nonexistant.

I have a question.

Why would retailers hesitate to sell a set that looks vaguely similar to one they sold years ago...

... but wouldnt hesitate about one that looks almost identical to the ones they've been selling the past two years?

I am no expert, Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn, but I believe it has to do with the name and what similarities this entails. The similarities between the new Nuva, the Mahri, and the Inika exist solely in generic parts, such as armor, legs, bodies, etc. However, if you were to slap on masks that looked too much like the old Nuva masks, the stores would probably suspicious. Then slap on the name Kopaka Nuva, and they say, "Wait a second, this guy's been here before." Despite reasonable upgrades, I don't think they want repeats. Probably because BIONICLE's medium is not the same as Batman or Superman, for which they appear to have no hesitation in release near-identical action figures.

I don't know exactly why, I just know from GregF and LEGO that it is so.

I've never understood why a store would ever even care. The target audience is long gone-heck, BZP is a perfect example, there's a few crusty oldies and pretty much everyone else is a new face. They say over and over the audience of today is completely new, that's why they did away with gears and whatnot. So they're not gonna care about how the Nuva look. Meh.

The target audience is long-gone, InnerRayg, but I suspect the store buyers are probably not. They see the name tag "Kopaka Nuva," see too many noticeable similarities and say, "This guy's been on the market too recently for me." You can't risk stores not wanting it. Even if most stores do, in today's market can LEGO really takes the risk of designing sets and having even some stores not want them? GregF has confirmed that this was the hesitation of re-releasing the Nuva. 2008 was originally supposed to be another Inika transformation (can you imagine the complaints here if it were so? It seems we complain about everything.) but since BIONIClE is going in a new direction in 2009, they managed to convince management to allow a re-release of the Nuva.

EXCELLENT post, Tohst.

Exactly my point.

To do a tip of the hat to the originals is NOT to make guys with their name.

A respectful tip of the hat is to update their look, not crap them out your megablocks in every way possible (but better poseability).

Some of you are making it sound like it's somehow rocket science to jazz up an older design, like it's some monumental undertaking of some sort... which is flat-out kooky, it is.

Sure the designers can make updated, clone-copies of the originals. It's easy. The question is if it is too much of a risk. As Greg points out, it's risky to even put the name Toa Nuva back on the market. Apparently toy stores don't like it in certain products. Can you imagine how risky it would be to make them look too much like the old Nuva? Besides, they do have callbacks. Read earlier in my reponse to DV and I list numerous ones. They are callbacks, but slim enough so that store managers don't return LEGO a big fat "NO."

GYUUUUUUH... I hate listening to him talk sometimes. So smug. So condescending. So talky-downy.

"Bringing them back" (lol) is ONE part of the TWO part package.

One. Bring them back.

Two. Make them recognizable (not be suckass).

To fall in the middle is a halfassed job and serves only to SOLIDIFY the disgruntled fans in their statement that the line's current execution blows.

The lines's current execution does NOT blow; it MAKES MONEY. It does what it is supposed to do. YOU THINK the line's current execution blows because it does not suit YOUR tastes enough. I didn't like Nuparu. I didn't like Mantax. I didn't like Kongu Mahri. I didn't like Toa Lesovikk. Does that mean LEGO is failing in black sets or air Toa for 2007? No, it means I didn't like it. Personally.

And I don't see how falling in the middle is a halfway job. They brought back the Nuva. These Nuva bear certain similarities to the old Nuva. They don't look exactly like them. And you call it a halfway job. (Sorry if the word halfway is not exactly what you meant. I prefer not to use the word you used.) Okay, let's say LEGO ditched the Nuva not to be halfway, and re-released the Toa INika for the third time as originally planned. I wouldn't have been happy. Maybe you would have. See? Our position might have been switched ,or we might both have been upset.

I agree. I got tired of those chestplates with Nuparu Mahri. And now we get two more. That's two out of the three Toa. Oh well, at least the one Kopaka has remotely looks like Nuva armour... But really. I'd rather become an hero than see those thing appear in the next three. And would it kill them to make new limb pieces? We haven't had any new shins since the Inika. How many new parts are on these guys? I see four on Pohatu, two on Kopaka, and two on Lewa. Plus the blasters + ammo, which makes about 10-11 new parts on the new Toa. Wow. How impressive.

LEGO has no choice. Take a look at 2006. Woah! A ton of new pieces never before seen, on both PIraka and Inika! Guess what? Clones, clones, clones, clones, clones. Woah! Visorak have new limbs, new pieces, Hordika have new bodies, new pieces! Clones, clones, clones. Woah! Toa Metru have tons and tons of new pieces, with so much more poseability than the Rahkshi! Clones. Rahkshi? Clones. Bohrok? CLones.

See a pattern?

New pieces=same pieces on all sets. Why? New molds are expensive. Old molds are not as expensive. Old molds means new weapons for each figure (a must-have. You want two Toa with the same sword?) Old molds means non-cloning, since Toa can have different legs. You want new armor, most of the Toa are probably gonna have it. Then we all cry, "Clones!" We all bash LEGO for making clones. And now we're bashing them because they use older pieces?

And 10-11 new pieces is pretty impressive to me, Clonie. Better than 20 new pieces and, dare I say it, clones!

He's right, though. Aparrently TLC might not have even made the Nuva return at all if it wasn't for him. And he's hardly the only one who talks smug; people here and at BZP have been doing it for years. It's a fact of life that things often sound smug when you don't want to hear what they say or dissagree with them. It's not anybodys fault, but what are you going to do?

Jinzo, I know how you feel. We all know, but that doesn't change the fact that TLC is in control, not me, us, or even GregF (who only has some say in the process, but usually not much). TLC and the stores made the decision, Greg's just telling it.

You should check out some topics on BZP. They are complaining worse than we are. There are a million canister topics, one Destroying our Favorite Heroes? topic, a gazillion Bionicle Going Downhill? topics. Greg is not talking smug; he's talking smart. What's he gonna do? Go around saying, "Sorry we upset you. Sorry we upset you, too. Sorry we upset you all, too. I'm gonna go now and I convey our apologies."

And Grievous, LEGO is not in complete control either. Yes, they have direct control. But guess who has the most control? The market. If LEGO goes in our direction when the market is going in the other direction, good-bye LEGO. They're done for. The store managers don't want re-released, obvious Toa Nuva. Their reasoning is their own. LEGO has to comply, or end up a dead toy company. And despite whichever you or I would prefer, LEGO I am sure does NOT prefer the latter.

Oh, and Grievous, my comments are not actually directed on you personally. I agree with what you said, wholeheartedly. :-)

So, those are my points. After saying so much, I can hardly think of a closer, lol.

VK :-)

[Tohst]

My, that's a lot of posts to sort through. Well, here goes with the response, lol:

1. Kopaka's mask should be rounder.

Why? It keeps the eyepiece, does it HAVE to be completely round? I like this mask just as much as the Akaku Nuva. The only mask I like better is the Akaku, but then that is my favorite mask.

So, those are my points. After saying so much, I can hardly think of a closer, lol.

VK :-)

I wasn't going to reply because I think a lot of disagreement is personal preference (also why I am not joining the Master of Bionicle 2 game) but this one I just can't let slide. ;-)

Kopaka's mask doesn't need to be completely round. But you can't just throw on an eyepiece and say 'Look its Kopaka'. That ship sailed with Toa Metru Nuju, another Toa of Ice with an eyepiece on his mask. Oh, and his mask was much more square. So, when I see a square mask with an eyepiece, it doesn't scream Kopaka. When I see a toa without a sword and shield it doesn't scream Kopaka. When I see a white and grey Toa, it can be almost every Ice Toa since Mata Nui was in diapers. So, this guy looks like Nuju who was on the shelves even more recently than Kopaka. And Nuju was the bird talking freak, right?

-Tohst

[Visorak-kal]

I also think it is mostly personal preference; that is the point I often try to make.

My point here, though, is that they put an eyepiece. They could have ignored an eyepiece like they did with Matoro. They could have not given Kopaka an eyepiece at all. But they did. That is a callback; its lack of obviousness does not take away from its existence. Yes, white and grey can be any ice Toa.

My points were directed to DV, who complained that the Toa Nuva should have kept original colors. I was showing him how they DID keep original colors. Besides, Kopaka's new mask looks neither like his Akaku Nuva nor Nuju's Matatu. But they did put an eyepiece, something they could simply have ignored. You're wanting more than that doesn't take away from the fact that they did do something they could have ignored.

VK