Everything Star Wars [SPOILERS]

[Agent Kallus]

On 11/2/2024 at 7:17 PM, Murdoch17 said:

So, anybody watch Skeleton Crew yet?

I did yeah, it's okay so far, but hopefully it'll pick up pace soon.

[Tariq j]

I enjoyed it, good cast and it seems pretty confident with the story they want to tell. 

In other related news, Ahsoka Season 2 is definitely moving ahead and filming early next year.

[Samppu]

6 hours ago, BrickPrick said:

I am inclined to agree. So many things are happening and hitting you only in the moment, but are completely course corrected at the very next chance, making it hard for me to truly care, because it just feels so inconsequential and irrelevant in the grand sheme of things. What should be more than a mere emotional moment, is undermined and reversed in what basically feels like the next scene. 

Me too.

The reason behind this back-and-forth logic is probably simple and stupid, unfortunately: the movies and series are not planned as a whole, but instead they seem to be made only one movie or episode at a time. The saddest example is the sequel trilogy itself, but let's not dwell into that again.

The real question is why they don't? One would think that professional writers who are Star Wars fans would know how to plan long archs over trilogies of movies and seasons of series.

My bet is that the problem is less in the writers (though, some of it is in the writers and directors themselves, too, but that issue spans over the entire Hollywood in general, not just over Star Wars) and more in the producers.

On many occasions it seems that the writers are forbidden to make any direct connections to the existing lore of the Expanded Universe or even to the other canonical series. Take the Mandalorian season 1 for a particular example. Most of the episodes are episodic (so the story does not continue from one episode to the next but instead each episode is a more-or-less stand-alone story of its own), and almost totally disconnected from everything. Mostly no meaningful connections to any other existing lore, nor thorough explanations or backstories of characters and settings (which applies well to the sequel trilogy, too) as if they had not yet decided how this should fit into the grand scheme. Then suddenly in the season two, bam, the writers are set free and you get Ahsoka, dark troopers, even Thrawn, Luke etc.

Though still those connections to old characters and lore feel mostly disconnected from the ongoing story and its logic. They tend to be visiting guests, who act rather as cameos (or some sort of advertisement of other projects) than as actually meaningful parts of the story. If indecisiveness is the shame of the producers, lacking functionally meaningful role in the story is then a blame on the writers. It only gets worse when directors or producers decide to reverse the decisions of their predessors in ways of which you guys gave a plenty of silly examples.

[Mandalorianknight]

7 hours ago, Samppu said:

Though still those connections to old characters and lore feel mostly disconnected from the ongoing story and its logic. They tend to be visiting guests, who act rather as cameos (or some sort of advertisement of other projects) than as actually meaningful parts of the story. If indecisiveness is the shame of the producers, lacking functionally meaningful role in the story is then a blame on the writers. It only gets worse when directors or producers decide to reverse the decisions of their predessors in ways of which you guys gave a plenty of silly examples.

I agree with the wider sentiment that Disney has this weird hangup about actually making and following through on a plan, but I thought Mando S2 did a great job keeping the connections plot-relevant. As for meaningful, I think Luke getting out of that X-wing and actually being Luke Skywalker as he is meant to be was one of the most meaningful star wars moments of the entire disney era to me. Made me feel like I was six years old.

We've been getting more and more january information for other themes, so I'd be surprised if we didn't start to hear some more concrete info on our leaked january sets here.

[Samppu]

14 hours ago, Mandalorianknight said:

I agree with the wider sentiment that Disney has this weird hangup about actually making and following through on a plan, but I thought Mando S2 did a great job keeping the connections plot-relevant. As for meaningful, I think Luke getting out of that X-wing and actually being Luke Skywalker as he is meant to be was one of the most meaningful star wars moments of the entire disney era to me. Made me feel like I was six years old.

I actually agree about Luke's role, it made sense on many levels.

Yet still considering Mando S2, the visit of Ahsoka seeking Thrawn, for instance, was something a bit out of context and clearly acted merely as an advertisement of her own show. Exciting, well yes, connected to the story or the world of a ruthless bountyhunter of the Mandalorian, not really.

And I don't mean they should have left her or Thrawn out, but the professional style of writing would be to bring them in as logical parts of the story and the lore setting. For example, if we had heard e.g. some stormtroopers speaking about a new warlord taking command before, which later would have revealed to be Thrawn, that would have been elegant. Now he bumbs out of nowhere as if the directors just had the idea and/or permission to bring him in, because somebody in the background just signed the deal about Ahsoka's series, which needed an advert.

This same issue spans over most of Star Wars media, Mandalorian as a whole, too. Not that the connections should not exist or that they would be inherently bad, but they just don't seem and feel to be built in a cohesive manner.

[betaplayer]

7 minutes ago, Samppu said:

I actually agree about Luke's role, it made sense on many levels.

Yet still considering Mando S2, the visit of Ahsoka seeking Thrawn, for instance, was something a bit out of context and clearly acted merely as an advertisement of her own show. Exciting, well yes, connected to the story or the world of a ruthless bountyhunter of the Mandalorian, not really.

And I don't mean they should have left her or Thrawn out, but the professional style of writing would be to bring them in as logical parts of the story and the lore setting. For example, if we had heard e.g. some stormtroopers speaking about a new warlord taking command before, which later would have revealed to be Thrawn, that would have been elegant. Now he bumbs out of nowhere as if the directors just had the idea and/or permission to bring him in, because somebody in the background just signed the deal about Ahsoka's series, which needed an advert.

This same issue spans over most of Star Wars media, Mandalorian as a whole, too. Not that the connections should not exist or that they would be inherently bad, but they just don't seem and feel to be built in a cohesive manner.

I agree.

Luke's appearance made sense and was done reasonably well.

But then there was the need to return all these other characters for some reason? Mando S1 was great because it expanded the universe. Andor also showed how you create good, new, stories, new characters all tying into the bigger picture, without having all the main characters of the era around.

Not that you couldn't give us with Thrawn or others, but focus on the story, your main characters and do it a bit more sparingly, so you can do it justice.

Speaking which, where are my Andor sets and figures? We deserve another Krennic and Mon Mothma at the very least. Don't get me started on B2-EMO, Bix, Maarva, Kino and our boy Brasso 😭

[Renny The Spaceman]

2 hours ago, betaplayer said:

Luke's appearance made sense and was done reasonably well

I'd argue his appearance was the main issue with him, generally I think it could be done better if he had a face instead of like 4 he shifted between 

[Darth_Bane13]

5 hours ago, betaplayer said:

I agree.

Luke's appearance made sense and was done reasonably well.

But then there was the need to return all these other characters for some reason? Mando S1 was great because it expanded the universe. Andor also showed how you create good, new, stories, new characters all tying into the bigger picture, without having all the main characters of the era around.

Not that you couldn't give us with Thrawn or others, but focus on the story, your main characters and do it a bit more sparingly, so you can do it justice.

Speaking which, where are my Andor sets and figures? We deserve another Krennic and Mon Mothma at the very least. Don't get me started on B2-EMO, Bix, Maarva, Kino and our boy Brasso 😭

Yeah my problem with Mando s2 was the fact that half the episodes had returning characters for the sake of fan service, (Bo Karen, Boba Fett, Ahsoka, Luke). By the time they got to Luke I was rolling my eyes, it felt more like kids playing with action figures than an actual interesting story. It felt very cheap to me and I still to this day don't understand why people glaze that show so much.

[Mandalorianknight]

2 hours ago, Swordy said:

Could we see a playset of the gladiator arena wherein we see that stinkin’ jacked Hutt?

It could be a fun mid-range playsest sort of like the Ragnorak arena set.

Also, that Hutt is 

Spoiler

Rotta

and played by Jeremy Allen-White: the main character from the show The Bear, which might be the craziest casting choice star wars has ever made.

10 minutes ago, Darth_Bane13 said:

Yeah my problem with Mando s2 was the fact that half the episodes had returning characters for the sake of fan service, (Bo Karen, Boba Fett, Ahsoka, Luke). By the time they got to Luke I was rolling my eyes, it felt more like kids playing with action figures than an actual interesting story. It felt very cheap to me and I still to this day don't understand why people glaze that show so much.

I don't really understand how it would just be fan service for a story about a bounty-hunting mandalorian trying to bring a kid to the jedi to involve bounty hunters, mandalorains, and jedi.

Like, come on. We can go into how essential most of them are to the plot, and all the themes behind each of them: Boba and Bo challenging Mando's morality and what it means to be a mandalorian, for one thing, or Ahsoka's role in developing Grogu as a character, setting up the notion and conflict within Mando about letting go of Grogu, etc. Luke's the only one that's a cameo, and aside from being one of the best moments in disney-era star wars, it is the ultimate realization of a lot of season 2's themes: the necessity of Grogu's development as a Jedi, letting go, and what it means to be a mandalorian through Mando's decision to voluntarily remove his helmet to say goodbye. But at the end of the day- yeah, obviously a story about a mandalorian bringing a kid to the jedi is going to involve some of the famous mandalorians and jedi active at that time period. It'd be like if Andor never included any of the imperials or rebels in the OT.

Edited September 25 by Mandalorianknight

[Renny The Spaceman]

7 hours ago, Mandalorianknight said:

I don't really understand how it would just be fan service for a story about a bounty-hunting mandalorian trying to bring a kid to the jedi to involve bounty hunters, mandalorains, and jedi.

You can like or think it's justified all you want but objectively it is fan service having a hideous deepfake Luke show up slowly reveal his hood and give the audience an applause break. Boba Fett and Ahsoka are irrelevant to the story, they have nothing to do with the characters or main conflict with the empire wanting the marketable plush toy but are there to offer some very redundant "help" that wouldn't change at all if given to any other character. They're there to make fans point at the screen and recognise them, you can say it's done well but it is fan service, that's not a question.

Especially when to take it in context, Boba and Ahsoka are here to pitch their shows and everything Luuke is just immediately made irrelevant, very clearly they didn't want to split up the show's main duo, he's there to have an excuse for Luke to have a hallway scene.  Any argument you could make about Boba or Ahsoka challenging certain characters is irrelevant because the cult Mando started in is good and no-one needs to let go of anything. Like this discussion started with people talking about the frustrating impermanence of things in this show, so really any arc about letting go means nothing, that's fundamentally in conflict with the text of the show. I'd argue it's at conflict with the franchise as a whole as it's what popularised the resurrection of dead actors in franchise slop like the Flash and such. Fundamentally Star Wars is the most anti-letting go franchise possible because even death isn't enough to stop them digging up a character for nostalgia 

[Kaijumeister]

To each their own, but I personally agree that the inclusion of legacy characters in Mando Season 2 made enough sense from both a portrayal and narrative standpoint to be satisfying and entertaining. Plus, the character beats in the season were fantastic regardless of Season 3 and TBoBF failing (spectacularly) to honour them.

Anyway, hoping for more information on the March sets soon. I have a weird feeling that a Vulture Droid, Tri-Fighter, or maybe Anakin’s Delta-7b may be revisited next year. 

Edited September 25 by Kaijumeister

[Mandalorianknight]

12 hours ago, CloneCommando99 said:

I think the $150 April set will be a AT AT, the $120 April set will be a Razer Crest and the $75 April set will be a Y-Wing.

100% agreed on the first two but I'm holding out hope the third is an arena build, maybe with some of those big droids if they're in around the same area.

11 hours ago, BrickBob Studpants said:

THANK YOU. All of these characters make perfect sense to appear and have a clear impact on the story. Also, I don‘t get why people pretend that S1 was 100% stand-alone. Boba Fett was already teased in that season and Gideon having the darksaber was a huge reveal that made it obvious they were gonna tie the story to Bo-katan in some way. And the existence of Grogu was by itself something that clearly tied back to the prequels given his age (meaning he must’ve been an Order 66 survivor, and of course he was) and the fact he‘s the same hyper rare species as Yoda, and a contemporary at that 

Yeah, exactly. You can't call boba fett in season 2, where he directly serves the story and themes, fan service and pretend he didn't cameo in season one just because he was on the same planet. He wasn't even canonically confirmed to be ALIVE until Mando S1, IIRC.

8 hours ago, Renny The Spaceman said:

You can like or think it's justified all you want but objectively it is fan service having a hideous deepfake Luke show up slowly reveal his hood and give the audience an applause break. Boba Fett and Ahsoka are irrelevant to the story, they have nothing to do with the characters or main conflict with the empire wanting the marketable plush toy but are there to offer some very redundant "help" that wouldn't change at all if given to any other character. They're there to make fans point at the screen and recognise them, you can say it's done well but it is fan service, that's not a question.

You literally quoted me explaining how relevant they are to the story, themes, and main conflict, but we'll go through this again:

Boba Fett: At the end of Season 1, Boba finds Fennec Shand, a character Mando's previously tangled with. At the start of season 2, while trying to find other mandalorians Mando finds Cobb wearing Boba's armor and gets it from him, setting up boba to follow him. He catches up to him in episode 6, where he and Fennec attempt to regain his armor, then offering their help when Grogu's kidnapped due to Boba's sense of honor, proceeding to be mando's transportation and help for the rest of the season. He's fairly important to the story, no? Removing him and replacing him with some random bounty hunter would completely destroy a big chunk of the season's "what does it mean to be a mandalorian" theme. Also, HE CAMEOS IN THE FIRST SEASON!

Bo-Katan: You didn't mention her, which is good because this one can be explained simply by "the story is about mandalorians, and she's a leader of mandalorians". Obviously the second he starts looking for the rest of his people he's going to come on a collision course with her.

Ahsoka: The entire Mando/Grogu dynamic in season 2 is centered around preparing mando to let Grogu go, that to be with the Jedi, he needs to forgo his attachment to Mando. Ahsoka fits the role of setting that up PERFECTLY, as someone who has traumatic, firsthand experience with the danger of a Jedi too entrenched in personal attachments. Sure, you could invent some random new order 66 survivor to tell Mando to go to Tython, but you lose that whole angle (as well as further damaging the whole "last of the jedi" thing in ROTJ by making another random survivor). And that's a whole other thing- for the jedi characters specifically, it would actively discount the OT to keep adding more and more jedi who were around during the OT. They've done all they can to get around it so far (Ahsoka not considering herself a jedi through that time and also presumably being trapped on a dark side temple during the OT, Ezra being trapped in another galaxy, Kanan dying), but wouldn't inventing another survivor jedi with a convoluted reason for not being counted by yoda be a bigger issue than... a character we know from other projects *gasp* showing up in a new project?

Luke: Similar thing to Ahsoka- Luke is supposed to be the last jedi at the time of ROTJ. There were literally two options for who Baby Yoda was going to end up with, and it makes sense that it'd be the guy building the jedi school. It's literally the only person that could fulfill the Armorer's mandate at the end of season 1. So storywise it's not only totally logical, but the literal only move. As for the themes, Luke is the ultimate realization of the Jedi Order. The sequels do their whole thing, but post-ROTJ Luke is THE jedi. It signals to the audience- and by those around him's reactions, Mando- that it's OK. Grogu will be in good hands (for a few decades until the sequels mess things up). He'll be taught by the best of them- mando just needs to let go. Mando taking off his helmet, voluntarily, to say goodbye to grogu is the most emotional moment in the mandoverse. It's what the entire second season builds towards. And replacing luke with just some random new order 66 survivor we've never seen who would LITERALLY come out of nowhere and now needs to be from-a-certain-point-of-view'd into not directly contradicting the OT would actively hurt that part of the story.

1 hour ago, Swordy said:

True. So maybe it’s the $75 set instead? ($20ish reserved for the Hutt, of course.)

  Hide contents

I can’t believe you missed my pun about Stinky. Anyway, I know, right? At least it’s a vocal role if that, so Lucasfilm can always reuse him in another project, like Andy Sekris.

That would make sense. 

I intentionally purged all memories of the 2007 TCW movie from my brain, so I forgot Ahsoka called him that.

19 minutes ago, Darth_Bane13 said:

I will also add that having all these returning characters just makes the galaxy feel smaller. Ahsoka should've died in clone wars, I would've accepted her dying in rebels though. Also there are more Mandalorians than just Bo Karen and Boba fett, they could've created new characters to fill those rolls.

Come on Mandalorianknight you cannot compare Yularen and Mon Mothma showing up in Andor, to Boba Fett, Ahsoka, and Luke Skywalker, three fan favorite characters showing up in Mando s2. The truth is without the fan favorite characters no one would like Mando s2 because it is boring and poorly written.

Bo-Katan was the leader of the main mandalorian faction. It is directly comparable to Mon showing up in andor. Similarly, Ahsoka is a jedi who knows the danger of training a jedi with pre-existing familial attachments, fitting both the "Mando needs to find a jedi" story element and setting up+ showing the importance of the "Mando and Grogu have to separate for Grogu's jedi training" emotional element. Luke caps off the "Finding the Jedi" arc because he's THE jedi. It's putting Grogu in the best possible hands, giving him (a few decades of a) happy ending... so long as Mando lets go. As for Boba Fett, aside from the role he plays in the "what does it mean to be a mandalorian" theme and storyline, he was also SET UP IN THE FIRST SEASON!

Objectively speaking those characters play roles important to the story and themes that specifically they were good fits for. If they'd had two other random jedi show up in episodes 5 and 8, people would be complaining that there were yet more order 66 survivors. A character being liked or having been in previous stuff doesn't automatically make it bad for them to show up in a new project.

[Darth_Bane13]

2 hours ago, Mandalorianknight said:

Bo-Katan was the leader of the main mandalorian faction. It is directly comparable to Mon showing up in andor. Similarly, Ahsoka is a jedi who knows the danger of training a jedi with pre-existing familial attachments, fitting both the "Mando needs to find a jedi" story element and setting up+ showing the importance of the "Mando and Grogu have to separate for Grogu's jedi training" emotional element. Luke caps off the "Finding the Jedi" arc because he's THE jedi. It's putting Grogu in the best possible hands, giving him (a few decades of a) happy ending... so long as Mando lets go. As for Boba Fett, aside from the role he plays in the "what does it mean to be a mandalorian" theme and storyline, he was also SET UP IN THE FIRST SEASON!

Objectively speaking those characters play roles important to the story and themes that specifically they were good fits for. If they'd had two other random jedi show up in episodes 5 and 8, people would be complaining that there were yet more order 66 survivors. A character being liked or having been in previous stuff doesn't automatically make it bad for them to show up in a new project.

Bo Karen (yes I'm saying Karen on purpose because I don't like her character) was the least egregious of the returning characters, but I feel like she has existed in the galaxy for too long but whatever. Again with Ahsoka I think her character is an abomination that should've died long before Mando s2. There are lots of lesser known Jedi who survived order 66 they could've used. Your argument for Luke showing up is essentially just that because he's one of the main OT characters, shouldn't he be busy with other things? He could've sent someone like Kyle Katarn. Also none of this Jedi stuff mattered anyway because Grogu went back with Din in the end. Look I'm not saying there can't be any returning characters but 4 in 8 episodes is ridiculous. The Boba Fett episode was literally just Dave Filoni saying "wouldn't it be cool if Din and Boba teamed up and killed stormtroopers for 30 minutes". The show also made stormtrooper a non threat so there were pretty much no stakes. The episodes really did feel like stories I'd play out with my Lego as a kid lol. Imo the show should've focused on keeping it about a badass Clint Eastwood type bounty hunter, with new characters because the galaxy is unfathomably large with so many potentially new characters.

[Oky]

I really don’t get all the Mando hate. I admit the quality has been slowly declining with them shoehorning more and more backdoor pilots into it, but it’s still a very entertaining show. I’m a SW fan, so I don’t mind the fan service. 

As for the movie, it looks fine. Is it the most amazing trailer ever? No, but it doesn’t need to be. It’s just more of the Mando & Grogu we know and love, so it’ll be a good time as long as you let yourself enjoy it. For some people, “fine” isn’t good enough for a SW movie, but not every SW movie needs to be a big new event as long as it’s fun in my opinion.

I have spoken. 

[Artanis I]

Fact: Dave Filoni is going to keep bringing back characters he likes, again and again. Deal with it.

[Renny The Spaceman]

13 hours ago, Mandalorianknight said:

100% agreed on the first two but I'm holding out hope the third is an arena build, maybe with some of those big droids if they're in around the same area.

Yeah, exactly. You can't call boba fett in season 2, where he directly serves the story and themes, fan service and pretend he didn't cameo in season one just because he was on the same planet. He wasn't even canonically confirmed to be ALIVE until Mando S1, IIRC.

You literally quoted me explaining how relevant they are to the story, themes, and main conflict, but we'll go through this again:

Boba Fett: At the end of Season 1, Boba finds Fennec Shand, a character Mando's previously tangled with. At the start of season 2, while trying to find other mandalorians Mando finds Cobb wearing Boba's armor and gets it from him, setting up boba to follow him. He catches up to him in episode 6, where he and Fennec attempt to regain his armor, then offering their help when Grogu's kidnapped due to Boba's sense of honor, proceeding to be mando's transportation and help for the rest of the season. He's fairly important to the story, no? Removing him and replacing him with some random bounty hunter would completely destroy a big chunk of the season's "what does it mean to be a mandalorian" theme. Also, HE CAMEOS IN THE FIRST SEASON!

Bo-Katan: You didn't mention her, which is good because this one can be explained simply by "the story is about mandalorians, and she's a leader of mandalorians". Obviously the second he starts looking for the rest of his people he's going to come on a collision course with her.

Ahsoka: The entire Mando/Grogu dynamic in season 2 is centered around preparing mando to let Grogu go, that to be with the Jedi, he needs to forgo his attachment to Mando. Ahsoka fits the role of setting that up PERFECTLY, as someone who has traumatic, firsthand experience with the danger of a Jedi too entrenched in personal attachments. Sure, you could invent some random new order 66 survivor to tell Mando to go to Tython, but you lose that whole angle (as well as further damaging the whole "last of the jedi" thing in ROTJ by making another random survivor). And that's a whole other thing- for the jedi characters specifically, it would actively discount the OT to keep adding more and more jedi who were around during the OT. They've done all they can to get around it so far (Ahsoka not considering herself a jedi through that time and also presumably being trapped on a dark side temple during the OT, Ezra being trapped in another galaxy, Kanan dying), but wouldn't inventing another survivor jedi with a convoluted reason for not being counted by yoda be a bigger issue than... a character we know from other projects *gasp* showing up in a new project?

Luke: Similar thing to Ahsoka- Luke is supposed to be the last jedi at the time of ROTJ. There were literally two options for who Baby Yoda was going to end up with, and it makes sense that it'd be the guy building the jedi school. It's literally the only person that could fulfill the Armorer's mandate at the end of season 1. So storywise it's not only totally logical, but the literal only move. As for the themes, Luke is the ultimate realization of the Jedi Order. The sequels do their whole thing, but post-ROTJ Luke is THE jedi. It signals to the audience- and by those around him's reactions, Mando- that it's OK. Grogu will be in good hands (for a few decades until the sequels mess things up). He'll be taught by the best of them- mando just needs to let go. Mando taking off his helmet, voluntarily, to say goodbye to grogu is the most emotional moment in the mandoverse. It's what the entire second season builds towards. And replacing luke with just some random new order 66 survivor we've never seen who would LITERALLY come out of nowhere and now needs to be from-a-certain-point-of-view'd into not directly contradicting the OT would actively hurt that part of the story.

I think I see the disconnect here. You're looking at this through a Watsonian perspective perspective. Like all the stuff with Boba Fett's armour is only there to set up Boba Fett, the show has that as an end goal and he has very little to say about being a mandolorian other than like quips, the Mandolorian doesn't need a guy to pilot him around, that's not necessary for the story, that's an obstacle created to justify another character.

Ahsoka is pointless because you don't need any jedi character to show up and warn about attachments, like these things can be conveyed without someone turning to camera and saying it. And once again her and Luke are especially bad as the themes you say don't mean anything because the show immediately contradicts it the next time they appear and in the same megablocking scene as they're unable to let go of anything here. it's a franchise that can't let go, they're speaking in contradiction to what they're doing.

And chiefly AI reconstructed actors are the definition of fan service because if the character was here for what they add to the story they'd be played by something that can actually emote. Luke being a freaky CG creature is done because the character looking exactly like they did when you were six is more important than them being able to convey emotions, Luke handicaps the shows ending because, if you're charitable, the attention is taken away from the moment to an effects shot, even if you think it looks good you know it's fake and the spectacle of that is the focus, and the performance suffers because Luke comes off like an unfeeling robot, he delivers a couple clunky lines standing perfectly still and shows like no empathy. 

Also it could just be Ashoka taking him if they were unwilling to get a human to do the job, I know she "has seen what attachment does" or whatever but once again, Watsonian, that line is there because they want an episode with her to set up her show but don't want her to solve the plot immediately. She has a Padawan who has big attachment issues and when she like gives the location of Thrawn away because of that attachment she doesn't care at all and stands by Sabine. 

And once again none of these beats need to happen because the next time these characters appear, Baby Yoda gets to have all the attachments they want, Mandolorian doesn't need to readjust his views of the cult he was raised in as they're super fine, Luke doesn't train anyone, Ahsoka is fine with a Padawan with attachments and so on. You can't have a show about letting go if you can't let go of anything. Like if this was all happening in like Rebels season 7 who cares if they bring everything back, it doesn't matter but your argument is the show is fine to endlessly bring things back because it's a show about letting go.

But all of this is talking around the point, yes it's fan service, it's all fan servic,e having Luke recreate the ending to Rogue One is to make fans cheer. If you like that, fine, if you think it's super thematically pertinent and deep, fine you can think what you want but it's still fan service. 

[Darth_Bane13]

5 hours ago, Renny The Spaceman said:

I think I see the disconnect here. You're looking at this through a Watsonian perspective perspective. Like all the stuff with Boba Fett's armour is only there to set up Boba Fett, the show has that as an end goal and he has very little to say about being a mandolorian other than like quips, the Mandolorian doesn't need a guy to pilot him around, that's not necessary for the story, that's an obstacle created to justify another character.

Ahsoka is pointless because you don't need any jedi character to show up and warn about attachments, like these things can be conveyed without someone turning to camera and saying it. And once again her and Luke are especially bad as the themes you say don't mean anything because the show immediately contradicts it the next time they appear and in the same megablocking scene as they're unable to let go of anything here. it's a franchise that can't let go, they're speaking in contradiction to what they're doing.

And chiefly AI reconstructed actors are the definition of fan service because if the character was here for what they add to the story they'd be played by something that can actually emote. Luke being a freaky CG creature is done because the character looking exactly like they did when you were six is more important than them being able to convey emotions, Luke handicaps the shows ending because, if you're charitable, the attention is taken away from the moment to an effects shot, even if you think it looks good you know it's fake and the spectacle of that is the focus, and the performance suffers because Luke comes off like an unfeeling robot, he delivers a couple clunky lines standing perfectly still and shows like no empathy. 

Also it could just be Ashoka taking him if they were unwilling to get a human to do the job, I know she "has seen what attachment does" or whatever but once again, Watsonian, that line is there because they want an episode with her to set up her show but don't want her to solve the plot immediately. She has a Padawan who has big attachment issues and when she like gives the location of Thrawn away because of that attachment she doesn't care at all and stands by Sabine. 

And once again none of these beats need to happen because the next time these characters appear, Baby Yoda gets to have all the attachments they want, Mandolorian doesn't need to readjust his views of the cult he was raised in as they're super fine, Luke doesn't train anyone, Ahsoka is fine with a Padawan with attachments and so on. You can't have a show about letting go if you can't let go of anything. Like if this was all happening in like Rebels season 7 who cares if they bring everything back, it doesn't matter but your argument is the show is fine to endlessly bring things back because it's a show about letting go.

But all of this is talking around the point, yes it's fan service, it's all fan servic,e having Luke recreate the ending to Rogue One is to make fans cheer. If you like that, fine, if you think it's super thematically pertinent and deep, fine you can think what you want but it's still fan service. 

But...but... my favorite character showed up and killed all the bad guys therefore it is a masterpiece. 

[Swordy]

12 hours ago, Renny The Spaceman said:

And once again none of these beats need to happen because the next time these characters appear,

….was in Mando Season 3, not Season 2. To me, the thematic disconnect between seasons and projects is proof of Disney/Lucasfilm’s meddling, not the lack of a good story.

 

I’ll also present this thought: stories are, at their core, connections between events, times, or characters. Beyond the story of the Mandalorian, there’s the story of the larger SW galaxy at play. If everyone in Mando S2 was a brand new character, then the story would seem meaningless amidst that larger story. Moreover, the connections to the greater galaxy enhance the current story, not weigh it down into the canon of a dozen hours of animation.

I don’t understand how everyone is okay with Bo Katan but not fine with Ahsoka or Luke. Bo Katan gets a cool action sequence where she saves Mando (like Luke does) and easily could’ve been another Mandalorian seeking the Darksaber. Instead, because that the character literally has a story outside of the show, she becomes more three-dimensional.
The same is true of Luke; if a random Jedi says, “Talent without training is nothing,” that’s an okay line, but with Luke saying it, after we’ve seen his training on Dagobah, you understand more about his line of thinking than any line of MacClunky dialogue could share.
The same is true of Ahsoka when she speaks of attachments. I wish she had said something explicitly about Anakin, but, again, those who know her story will catch the reference. Those who don’t know will have enough to understand from the face value of her lines.

I say all that, then I think of all the greats from Season 1. My favourite episodes of Season 2 are Chapters 9 & 12, ones with none of the legacy characters involved, because those episodes were required to stand on their own with their characters. I don’t find the fan service particularly pleasing all these years later; Ch 14 is a mess of a plot—why would Boba ask Mando to take off just his jetpack of all things!—and Ch 13 is slow and filled to the brim with MacClunky dialogue.

I maintain that the episodes had to feature a Mandalorian, a Jedi, and a Jedi at the end of this book, and that someone ought to have a greater connection. However, I agree that the execution wasn’t always proper.

 

 

12 hours ago, Renny The Spaceman said:

She has a Padawan who has big attachment issues and when she like gives the location of Thrawn away because of that attachment she doesn't care at all and stands by Sabine. 

Yeah, that’s what really irks me about Ahsoka. (Not Mando Season 2, mind you. The two are unrelated releases, and if anything it’s Ahsoka’s fault for not keeping in line with Mando S2.)

I understand Ahsoka’s reasoning, where she wants to be the master that never abandons Sabine where maybe Anakin wasn’t for Ahsoka. I can understand how Sabine’s act of giving the map is in line with her character at that moment. What I don’t understand is that “all’s well because it ends well:” Sabine and Ahsoka trade places with Thrawn and Ezra, literally the reversal of Ezra’s sacrifice in Rebels, and Sabine doesn’t learn anything from it. She feels regretful—as she should—but never faces the consequences from, say, Ezra finding out. Ezra would be livid, and rightly so.
Besides that, Sabine never sees how selfish attachments are ultimately destructive. They’re the crux of the finales of the Prequel and Original trilogy! Ezra lives to see another day, Sabine nor Ahsoka are exactly miserable to be in another galaxy, and Thrawn is ready to take command of the empire once more with an undead army to boot. There needed to be greater, personal consequences to Sabine for choosing her selfish wants over the needs of her galaxy, and because there isn’t, Ahsoka is antithetical to the core values of George Lucas Star Wars.
If Season 2 rectifies this, it’d still be too late, but gratifying all the same.

Compare the consequences of Sabine’s choice (none that personally affect her, given she’s in another galaxy and her best friend lives) to character choices in Andor, Season 2:

Spoiler

Cassian is ready to leave the Rebellion, a year before he needs to march onto Scarif, because of his attachment to Bix. So, Bix, knowing he has a greater, unforeseen purpose, leaves him. Cassian’s selfish decision could’ve plunged the galaxy into the shadow of the Death Star, but Bix’s selfless action prevented that.

It’s a painful story, unforgiving to its audience, but meaningful all the more because of the sacrifice both characters make. Moreover, it’s the message central to Star Wars. Ha, the same choice is made at the end of Mando S2, and if the story ended there, that moment would be all the more powerful.

For Mando, I personally blame the executives who are so short-sighted to prioritize merchandise over meaning. (Let’s not forget that Season 3 also reversed IG-11’s death by saying his head and torso were somehow recovered when that was exactly where the detonation took place. I’m absolutely sure that wasn’t in their minds during Season 1.) For Ahsoka, I have to look to the man in the cowboy hat who wants his action figures lined up for a cool fanfic and believes SW fans only want spectacle and never substance.

Edited September 26 by Swordy

[Renny The Spaceman]

1 hour ago, Swordy said:

….was in Mando Season 3, not Season 2. To me, the thematic disconnect between seasons and projects is proof of Disney/Lucasfilm’s meddling, not the lack of a good story.

I think that still harms the season, especially as knowing Filoni who has trouble letting go at the best of times I can't even confidently say it was purely executive. 

1 hour ago, Swordy said:

I’ll also present this thought: stories are, at their core, connections between events, times, or characters. Beyond the story of the Mandalorian, there’s the story of the larger SW galaxy at play. If everyone in Mando S2 was a brand new character, then the story would seem meaningless amidst that larger story. The connections to the greater galaxy 

I don’t understand how everyone is okay with Bo Katan but not fine with Ahsoka or Luke. Bo Katan gets a cool action sequence where she saves Mando (like Luke does) and easily could’ve been another Mandalorian seeking the Darksaber. Instead, because that the character literally has a story outside of the show, she becomes more three-dimensional.
The same is true of Luke; if a random Jedi says, “Talent without training is nothing,” that’s an okay line, but with Luke saying it, after we’ve seen his training on Dagobah, you understand more about his line of thinking than any line of MacClunky dialogue could share.
The same is true of Ahsoka when she speaks of attachments. I wish she had said something explicitly about Anakin, but, again, those who know her story will catch the reference. Those who don’t know will have enough to understand from the face value of her lines.

Yeah, on paper all these characters could be fine, I don't have an issue with like Luke being there in concept I just think the execution feels way more fanwanky than genuinely driven by story and Luke is the worst case because he's literally a digital recreation of the face you saw when you were six, his performance is sacrificed just so he can look exactly like he does on the lunch boxes (with the big kicker being he doesn't even) and his voice in the BoBF is really stilted and tinny in a similar way. These digital recreations are the final form of meaningless fanwank because it's sacrificing an actual performance just so it looks like the past. And it's in the season about letting go so I can't separate that as a later season ruining it that's in this season.

Bo Katana gets a pass I guess because the idea of "Man born into a cult meets the woman who is the entire reason his cult exists" on paper is a natural step up. Everything wrong with Mandalore was facilitated by her too, she brought worked with death watch, worked with Maul only turning on him because of xenophobia then brought the soon to be Empire, then after triumphantly returning to lead it years later only to have it be subjected even harder this time. Her being there makes sense as she's the root of all the issues with the Mandolorians, granted the show does jackshit with this but she plays well to the base premise of "Mandolorian bounty hunter learns to love a surrogate son and in the process re-evaluates his emotionally repressing belief system" the entire "I need to get baby Yoda to a jedi to raise him" thing is something entirely devised to drive in season 2 and dropped before season 3. It could be a good angle but them not committing kills the season based around it almost as much as deepfake Luke.

But this seems to mainly be a perspective thing, in terms of how much late stuff affects our respective views on current stuff. The fact that Mando, Boba and Ahsoka all have by and large the same creative team makes them feel more like a unit and thus for me harder to separate. If it works for you in a vacuum more power to you. Though should clarify the reason we're even talking about this is the idea of if something is fan service, fan service can be good or justified and I still don't see how any of these appearances aren't that.

Obviously you are right here about Andor, that's doing these things better. Not everything has to be as political or mature on that level, they c

2 hours ago, Swordy said:

Yeah, that’s what really irks me about Ahsoka. (Not Mando Season 2, mind you. The two are unrelated releases, and if anything it’s Ahsoka’s fault for not keeping in line with Mando S2.)

I understand Ahsoka’s reasoning, where she wants to be the master that never abandons Sabine where maybe Anakin wasn’t for Ahsoka. I can understand how Sabine’s act of giving the map is in line with her character at that moment. What I don’t understand is that “all’s well because it ends well:” Sabine and Ahsoka trade places with Thrawn and Ezra, literally the reversal of Ezra’s sacrifice in Rebels, and Sabine doesn’t learn anything from it. She feels regretful—as she should—but never faces the consequences from, say, Ezra finding out. Ezra would be livid, and rightly so.
Besides that, Sabine never sees how selfish attachments are ultimately destructive. They’re the crux of the finales of the Prequel and Original trilogy! Ezra lives to see another day, Sabine nor Ahsoka are exactly miserable to be in another galaxy, and Thrawn is ready to take command of the empire once more with an undead army to boot. There needed to be greater, personal consequences to Sabine for choosing her selfish wants over the needs of her galaxy, and because there isn’t, Ahsoka is antithetical to the core values of George Lucas Star Wars.
If Season 2 rectifies this, it’d still be too late, but gratifying all the same.

Compare the consequences of Sabine’s choice (none that personally affect her, given she’s in another galaxy and her best friend lives) to character choices in Andor, Season 2:

  Hide contents

Cassian is ready to leave the Rebellion, a year before he needs to march onto Scarif, because of his attachment to Bix. So, Bix, knowing he has a greater, unforeseen purpose, leaves him. Cassian’s selfish decision could’ve plunged the galaxy into the shadow of the Death Star, but Bix’s selfless action prevented that.

It’s a painful story, unforgiving to its audience, but meaningful all the more because of the sacrifice both characters make. Moreover, it’s the message central to Star Wars. Ha, the same choice is made at the end of Mando S2, and if the story ended there, that moment would be all the more powerful.

I think Andor benefits by having a writer who wanted to say something first and a firm end in mind to begin with, the Mandolorian clearly was and is intended to be an ongoing brand (though probably will fizzle out of the movie doesn't do well) so you can't have those painful decisions stick

[MKJoshA]

23 hours ago, Renny The Spaceman said:

And chiefly AI reconstructed actors are the definition of fan service because if the character was here for what they add to the story they'd be played by something that can actually emote. Luke being a freaky CG creature is done because the character looking exactly like they did when you were six is more important than them being able to convey emotions, Luke handicaps the shows ending because, if you're charitable, the attention is taken away from the moment to an effects shot, even if you think it looks good you know it's fake and the spectacle of that is the focus, and the performance suffers because Luke comes off like an unfeeling robot, he delivers a couple clunky lines standing perfectly still and shows like no empathy. 

I just want to point out that Luke being a poorly done CGI face was because of the anti AI sentiment in Hollywood. They refused to use AI even though it would have done a much better job. Instead they went with an older roto-scope style CGI method that looks clunky. I personally liked Luke showing up at the end of season 2 because it was/is the closet thing to an EU Luke that we will ever see on screen. But I think they did themselves a dis-service by going with older technology to try to pull it off. They should have used a replacement actor or AI to get a better effect. 

[Renny The Spaceman]

On 9/27/2025 at 9:37 AM, MKJoshA said:

I just want to point out that Luke being a poorly done CGI face was because of the anti AI sentiment in Hollywood. They refused to use AI even though it would have done a much better job. Instead they went with an older roto-scope style CGI method that looks clunky. I personally liked Luke showing up at the end of season 2 because it was/is the closet thing to an EU Luke that we will ever see on screen. But I think they did themselves a dis-service by going with older technology to try to pull it off. They should have used a replacement actor or AI to get a better effect. 

When they swapped to the AI voice and face in the Boba Fett show it was just as distracting, as was AI Bilbo in the recent Alien film. You need an actual human to, they've got much more experience with human emotions, I'm lead to believe than, computers :P

Not to mention how much it's bring down the ridiculous budgets franchise stuff eats up now if they stopped trying to do all the filmmaking and performances in post

[BrickPrick]

On 9/23/2025 at 10:19 PM, Samppu said:

Me too.

The reason behind this back-and-forth logic is probably simple and stupid, unfortunately: the movies and series are not planned as a whole, but instead they seem to be made only one movie or episode at a time. The saddest example is the sequel trilogy itself, but let's not dwell into that again.

The real question is why they don't? One would think that professional writers who are Star Wars fans would know how to plan long archs over trilogies of movies and seasons of series.

My bet is that the problem is less in the writers (though, some of it is in the writers and directors themselves, too, but that issue spans over the entire Hollywood in general, not just over Star Wars) and more in the producers.

On many occasions it seems that the writers are forbidden to make any direct connections to the existing lore of the Expanded Universe or even to the other canonical series. Take the Mandalorian season 1 for a particular example. Most of the episodes are episodic (so the story does not continue from one episode to the next but instead each episode is a more-or-less stand-alone story of its own), and almost totally disconnected from everything. Mostly no meaningful connections to any other existing lore, nor thorough explanations or backstories of characters and settings (which applies well to the sequel trilogy, too) as if they had not yet decided how this should fit into the grand scheme. Then suddenly in the season two, bam, the writers are set free and you get Ahsoka, dark troopers, even Thrawn, Luke etc.

Though still those connections to old characters and lore feel mostly disconnected from the ongoing story and its logic. They tend to be visiting guests, who act rather as cameos (or some sort of advertisement of other projects) than as actually meaningful parts of the story. If indecisiveness is the shame of the producers, lacking functionally meaningful role in the story is then a blame on the writers. It only gets worse when directors or producers decide to reverse the decisions of their predessors in ways of which you guys gave a plenty of silly examples.

I think it definitely has something to do with too many different showrunners attempting different things. Individualism can absolutely be a good thing. Sometimes you need some fresh eyes to grant you a different perspective you otherwise would have never even noticed. But at the end of the day, you need a solid vision and commitment to a certain quality standard. And this is where i see mixed results, because different people excel in some areas where others fall short and vice versa. So, one director might be good at cinematography and creating good set pieces, the other is better at writing dialogue, while one seems like to never have reveived the memo on what show he actually is supposed to work right now. These circumstances may lead to a show that feels all over the place in terms of tone and thus, is inconsistent in aspects where it definitely shouldn't. Each episode, while obviously a lot of people are working on it, is supposed to be the result of one big creative collaboration from many talents coming together. Instead, it feels like each person in charge of a project sorta does their own thing. This is especially appearant for the cursed Sequel Trilogy, where personal ego got in the way of soul. 

@Darth_Bane13: From the other thread, i agree that the constant cameos make the galaxy feel smaller than it is. Like i used to say, it makes Star Wars appear as wide as an ocean, but as deep as a puddle. It's this kind of MCU-fication that doesn't really fit Star Wars all too well, in my opinion. 

Edited September 29 by BrickPrick

[Darth_Bane13]

7 hours ago, BrickPrick said:

@Darth_Bane13: From the other thread, i agree that the constant cameos make the galaxy feel smaller than it is. Like i used to say, it makes Star Wars appear as wide as an ocean, but as deep as a puddle. It's this kind of MCU-fication that doesn't really fit Star Wars all too well, in my opinion. 

Yeah I don't think people realize just how big the Star Wars galaxy is. There are over one hundred quadrillion sentient beings, so many stories to be told with new characters.

[BrickPrick]

11 hours ago, Darth_Bane13 said:

Yeah I don't think people realize just how big the Star Wars galaxy is. There are over one hundred quadrillion sentient beings, so many stories to be told with new characters.

Well yeah, there are probably more beings set in the universe than stories you can possibly tell about them. But as things are right now, there are not enough species and even less narratives told. There has to be a middle ground not yet explored. But given that Star Wars kinda has the tendency to be freaking bad whenever it seriously tries to expand it's scope, this supposedly huge middle ground becomes a fine line... making you carefully consider every risk. Of course, part of the main reason of not wanting to take creative risks might be due to marketing. Obviously, some guy with a cool looking armor looks much more appealing on a cover to kids and the mass market than some weird looking Alien dude, so why would they even bother? Outside of what we came to love, Star Wars might be too weird for them to be truly wonderful to us.

Edited September 30 by BrickPrick

[Samppu]

Generally the in-universe numbers, especially considering money but also things like army size, production value, population or distance are so weird and poorly fit that I personally try to avoid attaching myself to the numbers too much, as much as I would love to if they only made any sense.

Just some funny examples:

Galactic credits have more or less the same course as US dollars in our universe. Yet in Star Wars universe, you can buy an X-Wing for 60 000 credits, even if you barely buy a Tesla on Earth for the same amount of dollars. Just for comparison, Abrams tank costs something like 10 million dollars and F-35 something like 300 million dollars.

And in Andor they tell us that 80 million credits will suffice as the pay roll of a quarter of a year for a an Imperial sector. In Earth terms that would roughly give you the payroll of 800 doctors and 10 000 nurses for a quarter of a year. In the small country of Finland with a population of 5 million, we have 20 000 doctors.

The GAR army size has been commonly referred to have had about 3 million clone troopers. Even Russia is not so far from it at the moment (1 million casualties and another million still standing at the front), and the Soviet Union deployed as much as 30 million troops against the Germans.

Personally I let the numbers just flow and try to keep some sort of cohesion of the logistics at play only in my head with numbers and logic I adjust myself to please only myself.

 

Applies to the Lego universe as well, of which I mentioned an example a while back that I use as a downscale for the army organization for the Empire, Alliance and Republic (droid have a different system, though), which makes sense in terms of Lego but still has the right kind of feel of size in the Lego context:

Private (1 trooper)

Patrol (2 troopers)

Squad (4 troopers, one of them a sergeant)

Platoon (2 squads led by a lietenaunt so 9 together)

Company (2 platoons led by a captain so 19 together)

Battallion (2 companies led by a major so technically 39 together)

Brigade (2 battallions of similar type of force, like a bridage of stormtroopers, led by a colonel, technical size about 80)

Regiment (2 battallions of different types of force, like a combined force of artillery, armor and different sorts of infantry, led by a colonel, technical size about 80)

Division (a combined and independent fighting force including artillery and armory and air support as well as field hospital totaling a number larger than a brigade or a regiment with the technical size being well over a hundred, led by a general)

Notes:

Corporals' role is to be the second in command in a squad if the sergeant falls or is needed elsewhere. Corporals do not command units as such.

Unit sizes are technical paper sizes counting only the regular troopers. E.g. companies often employ a medic, battallions always have other officers and aids and technical specialists and often a small special force at the command station and platoons can have attached specialists like flametroopers at their disposal raising their actual size from the technical.

Legion is an honorary title granted for successful units, not a unit size as such.

Sector force or an army refers to all combined units on a particular planet or the land units of a fleet. Its size can be big or small, and it is commanded either by a moff (the sector force belonging to his or her sector) or an admiral (the army belonging to his or her fleet).

Military, like the Imperial Military or the Alliance military, refers to all combined arms of a faction including armies and fleets and intelligence etc.

Edited October 1 by Samppu