37 replies to this topic

[Southwest Chief]

Arrrr  :)

I've been a Lego pirate fan for a long time and have most of the pre Spanish sets, including some Islander sets.  It’s been a while since I pulled these out.  But recently I decided to build them all to see if I’ve lost any pieces over the years...thankfully I have every piece.

But my questions refer to when Lego changed from solid heads to hollow heads and when the cannons with the "crossed canon" design came out.  

First the heads:

My guess is the hollow heads began with the "System" sets.  System referring to the name “System” added to the instruction sheets on the newer sets I have.  The older instructions say Legoland.

Some of my "System" instruction sheets do show hollow heads, although it doesn't correlate with all the heads I have in my collection.  Does anyone know which style of head came with each set?

Following is a list of the Pirate Theme sets I have:

Buried Treasure #6235
King Kahuka #6236
Harbor Sentry #6245
Crocodile Cage #6246
Bounty Boat #6247
Castaways Raft #6257
Smugglers Shanty #6258
Broadsides Brig #6259
Shipwreck Island #6260
Raft Raiders #6261
King Kahukas Throne #6262
Forbidden Cove #6264
Sabre Island #6265
Lagoon Lock-Up #6267
Forbidden Island #6270
Imperial Flagship #6271
Rock Island Refuge #6273
Caribbean Clipper #6274
Eldorado Fortress #6276
Imperial Trading Post #6277
Black Seas Barracuda #6285
Skulls Eye Schooner #6286

Now the cannons:

None of the instruction sheets I have show the cannons with the "crossed canon" design.  So I don't know which set should have these “newer” cannons.  My guess is these go with the newer sets, since my earliest, Eldorado Fortress, came with shooting cannons and the rest of my early sets came with non-operating black end peg cannons.  But as my collection grew, I forget when Lego made the change to the “crossed canon” cannons.  Does anyone know which sets should have this newer cannon?

Any help is appreciated, and if my questions are not clear enough please let me know so I can modify as needed.

[exo attack]

I think they are in some of the western sets. I think it is only one western set though, maybe it was in the ninja line as well.

[Dreamweb]

I think hollow heads appeared in 1992. This was the year when Imperial Guards were introduced, and I remember their heads had hollow studs, while the blue soldiers had solid studs.

The cannons with the crossed cannon pattern were in some US sets, perhaps they were introduced later like you wrote. I have only one set that includes them and that's one of my two Imperial Flagships - AFAIK it's the olny US set I have, so I can't be more specific, sorry. ;) I'm sure those cannons weren't available in  Europe.

[Phred]

Growing up, i had only the non-shooting cannons with the cross cannon on top and hollow studded MF on my pirate sets.
I got my first Black Seas Barracuda in 1992, and got the Skull's Eye Schooner in 1993.
Other sets i had gotten around this time include the 6270 forbidden island and 6273 rock island refuge and multiple smaller sets.

In 1994 i got all the islander sets and they also had the hollow studded MFs.

The sets listed above are all US sets that were available in stores at the time.

It wasn't until i got the original Carribean Clipper and other parts of sets from a friend of mine did i acquire shooting cannons and cannons with a black peg thingy. But when i got these from my friend, everything was really mixed together. :-/

Hope that helps.

P

[Southwest Chief]

I'm sorry I should have mentioned I'm in the US, so these are all US sets.

The shooting cannons out here were gone fairly quickly.  I remember calling Lego back then to see if I could get any more shooting cannons, but was told they could not be sold in the US...at least by Lego  ;-)

I think Rock Island Refuge may be the first of my Lego sets to have hollow heads, although the instruction sheet shows solid.  But this is my oldest "system" labeled set and I also believe this was the first with a crossed cannon symbol cannon.  But I can't be certain.

[Dreamweb]

Perhaps when the first couple of Rock Island Refuge and other 1991 sets were released, they had minifigs with solid studs, and then, when the 1992 sets were introduced, some of the 1991 sets which lasted long enough were re-released with the new heads, but with the old instructions.

I'm only guessing though :)

[Mister Phes]

Greetnigs Southwest Chief!

I'm wondering you purchased all your sets from stores back in the late 80's and 90's.  By the sounds of it this is the case, but if you're like me and have acquired most of the larger sets from eBay (or a website that sells "preloved" LEGO) then there's always the possibility the has been made complete with subsitute parts from different sets.

From example, I buy a 1989 European Forbidden Island but it has a cannon from a 1996 Northern American Red Beard Runner.  So this makes it confusing to exactly when the non shooting cannons were introduced into Northern American sets.

I've read (but whether its accurate is another matter) the original Northern American Pirate sets indeed came with shooting cannons for the first couple of years, but they were eventually replaced with non shooting cannons.

So you could buy a Rock Island Refuge in 1991 with shooting cannons, but if you bought one in 1992 then it had the non shooting cannons.



So could you indeed

[Southwest Chief]

I should have also added that my sets are all original store purchases when they were available (late 80's to mid 90's).  

I haven't gotten any Legos on eBay yet, although I do have my eye on some Islander pieces to complete my collection of these.  It just worries me that some pieces may be missing from eBay sets.  Although my store bought Lagoon Lock-Up was missing the jail door frame.  Lego kindly sent me a replacement part for it though.

Shooting cannons were available in the very early days of Pirates in the US.  Some stores had old stock that had shooting cannons, and that's how I got mine with an on sale Eldorado, but by the time the second round of sets came out they all had non shooting versions.

[Mister Phes]

Occassionally you will  get missing pieces from eBay sets, however a compentent seller should be able to tell you if the set is complete or not.  So if in doubt you can always ask.

Most of the eBay sellers I buy from state the set is 100% complete and in most cases it is.  However, I've built a generous collection of "spare" parts so it doesn't really matter if the odd piece or two is missing because I can easily replace them.

[Phred]

My rock island refuge i'm pretty sure came with non-shooting cannons and hollow studs and my instructions also say that the stud is solid on the instructions.  Also looks like the cannon was originally a shooter.

Sw Chief,
You should check out bricklink.com for individual lego bricks and sets.
Sometimes they're cheaper than ebay on the sets too *y*

P

[tedbeard]

phred, on Apr 7 2007, 09:48 PM, said:

Sw Chief,
You should check out bricklink.com for individual lego bricks and sets.

You can also use the BrickLink Catalog to find out what sets had which pieces (by looking up the pieces or the sets).

[Mister Phes]

phred, on Apr 8 2007, 03:48 PM, said:

My rock island refuge i'm pretty sure came with non-shooting cannons and hollow studs and my instructions also say that the stud is solid on the instructions.  Also looks like the cannon was originally a shooter.

Did your Rock Island Refuge come with a box Mr Phred?  I've noticed when Rock Island Refuge was originally released (say that really fast 10 times  X-D ) it came in a "LEGO Land" style box with the yellow border, but the later releases came in the "SYSTEM" style box with the purple border.  I wonder if the introduction of the "SYSTEM" moniker was when The LEGO Group introduced non shooting cannons into the USA.

[Phred]

Mister Phes, on Apr 11 2007, 05:31 PM, said:

Did your Rock Island Refuge come with a box Mr Phred?  I've noticed when Rock Island Refuge was originally released (say that really fast 10 times  X-D ) it came in a "LEGO Land" style box with the yellow border, but the later releases came in the "SYSTEM" style box with the purple border.  I wonder if the introduction of the "SYSTEM" moniker was when The LEGO Group introduced non shooting cannons into the USA.

oh my goodness i don't remember that at all.  All of the boxes got thrown away growing up.  Also, it was originally my other brother's (not duke) and i bought his legos from him.  So i would have no idea what color the box is, its been thrown away for 15 years now 8-|

P

[Southwest Chief]

Just wanted to clarify a bit:

I'm not wondering when shooting cannons were dropped in the USA.  I know, it was within the first year of Pirate Legos in the USA.  So it was way before Rock Island came out and before the change to "System" logos.  My old Black Seas Barracuda, Caribbean Clipper, and Forbidden Island were all "Legoland" boxes with non-shooters.  Sort of wish I kept all those boxes  :-$

My other original 1989 set was an Eldorado Fortress I purchased from Toy City (like Toys R Us back in the day) with non shooters...as you could see the black end tips under the flap of the box.  But my friend told me his Eldorado he purchased from a small local toy store had shooting cannons...which surprised me.  I can confirm the one with the shooters was older since his box had serial numbers or similar numbers on the back that were much lower then the set I got from Toy City.  Thankfully I did not open my box and was able to return it to Toy City.  I then got one from the other toy store and it had shooting cannons.  These are the only shooters I have, but I suppose I could always get more as they are on eBay and Bricklink.  

I'm wondering when the change to the cannons with the crossed cannon logo and I guess you could call it a wick hole...fuse hole came out?

I'll have to get some photos of the cannons in question as it might only be a US thing.

[Mister Phes]

As far as I'm aware the non shooting cannons are a US only affair.

I presume you mean this type of cannon:



According to the Peeron.com Inventory on non-shooting cannons, they were introduced in 1993 in Cannon Cove and Renegade Runner.

But take pictures of your cannons all the same because the one above isn't a very good image.

[simonwillems]

Regarding the minifigs with solid/non solid heads I got a bit confused when I bought the 6396 airport: I bought it after I found it in the back of a dusty old toystore 3 years ago (yes they do excist, these stores  :-D ).
Inside this set there were eight minifigs, five of them had solid heads and three had hollow-ones, all in one set. This set is from 1990.
It can be, however, that my copy was made in the years after 1990 and being in the middle of the solid-to-hollow change something got mixed up, but it's weird all the same.

Now about those cannons: It is clear that the non-shooting ones were issued in the United States only, but when  the re-release of the 6285 BSB came out, number 10040 it came with non-shooting cannons. I bought it in Europe from Lego Benelux....

[Mister Phes]

My Black Seas Barracuda re-releases came with shooting cannon...  But Lego Benelux might have suppliers in the USA...

[Landlubber]

Mister Phes, on Apr 24 2007, 01:45 AM, said:

My Black Seas Barracuda re-releases came with shooting cannon...  But Lego Benelux might have suppliers in the USA...

Funny you should say that.  Nearly all sets I've aquired have shooting cannons, except my Lagoon Lockup. I got a huge lot the other day, including boxes,  and the 10040 Black seas Barracuda had the crosed non- shooting cannons.  I'm pretty sure all the peices were original as the sails were pretty much unused and the dust patterns on everything was consistent with the set being built when bought and dismantled once to post to me.

[Shadows]

As someone who bought the first pirate sets as they appeared in the US, then disappeared for 10 years, I'll just chime in on the timing of things (though it's all been said before, I'll just confirm some of it from my own experience).

I bought several sets at the time, Black Seas Barracuda, Caribbean Clipper, Eldorado Fortress, Harbor Sentry and Forbidden Island, and all came with shooting cannons (and solid stud heads, of course).

Then the dark ages.

When I returned, I neglected Pirates for the first, well, 7 years  8-| and then started buying up parts with a vengeance on eBay and reading various pages on the net. Apparently, the solid stud heads stopped production in 1991 but were still shipping in 1992. The shooting cannons disappeared from the US almost immediately after release, so they shouldn't ever appear in a set that wasn't in the first release, and then only the early ones (like mine).

From there it was the crippled black pull cannons, then the one piece ones with no mechanism at all. I've heard you can do something to make the black ones shoot, but I don't own one yet.

I have no idea about the crossed cannon mark, I've only been buying those recently in LEGO lot auctions. I don't mind them for appearance, but they do lack that shooting charm. For some reason, I keep mounting them on small wagon wheels and they feel much more 19th century than Pirate to me.

I don't think I've added anything to the discussion, but it's all I've got.

Oh, and on the subject of solid stud heads, silly as it is, I'm still always a bit excited to find one in a LEGO lot, usually on a blue Imperial Soldier, old Pirate or Knight. It's like a mini treasure hunt in each minifig lot.

[Phred]

imperialshadows, on May 2 2007, 11:53 PM, said:

...
From there it was the crippled black pull cannons, then the one piece ones with no mechanism at all. I've heard you can do something to make the black ones shoot, but I don't own one yet.
...

I had gotten a tub of bricks from a friend of mine, which included a partial CC and BSB X-D , and it came with the crippled black pull cannons and they have exactly the same design as the shooters and look like they should be able to shoot, they just don't 8-|
It'd be pretty cool if some knew how to turn them into shooters. *y*

In that tub, i also got some shooters.  I had been wondering when on earth lego made the shooters and black disabled in the US cause i considered it very unlikely that this tub had non-american components.  So it would then appear that the shooters that i have from this tub come from the first release of pirate sets sent to the US.
thanx imperial shadows.

P

[TalonCard]

Allright, here's an oddity for you all to ponder on.  I recently obtained a vintage American Caribbean Clipper, complete with box.  It has shooting cannons (YES!), dating it from around '89 or '90.  (I know that by '91, the shooting canons were gone.)  The minifigure heads for the sailers, the standard smilies, are all solid.  But Broadside's head is hollow!  

Now, my other used Pirate sets have a mixture of solid and hollow heads, which makes sense: they were probably swapped for newer ones at some point.  However, I would have thought that Broadside would never have been produced with a hollow head, since the two sets with him in it went out of production right before the hollow head was introduced.  Broadside was replaced completely by Woodhouse, who has a similar but definitely different face.  (Woodhouse has brown wiskers, whereas Broadside's are black.)

Thoughts?

TC

[Shadows]

TalonCard, on Jul 25 2007, 05:07 AM, said:

Allright, here's an oddity for you all to ponder on.  I recently obtained a vintage American Caribbean Clipper, complete with box.  It has shooting cannons (YES!), dating it from around '89 or '90.  (I know that by '91, the shooting canons were gone.)  The minifigure heads for the sailers, the standard smilies, are all solid.  But Broadside's head is hollow!  

Now, my other used Pirate sets have a mixture of solid and hollow heads, which makes sense: they were probably swapped for newer ones at some point.  However, I would have thought that Broadside would never have been produced with a hollow head, since the two sets with him in it went out of production right before the hollow head was introduced.  Broadside was replaced completely by Woodhouse, who has a similar but definitely different face.  (Woodhouse has brown wiskers, whereas Broadside's are black.)

Thoughts?

TC

Makes me wish all of my original Pirates weren't packed up, but I'm sure both of mine are solid stud since I bought them immediately. The shooting cannon thing confuses me, since that should indicate early sets, like mine, but who knows ... All reference pics to Broadside show a solid stud, but clearly toward the end they must have run out and fired off a batch of new ones. Figure it's probably rarer that way.

Maybe everyone can check under their hats and see what they've got?   >8-)

[Governor Broadside]

TalonCard, on Jul 25 2007, 01:07 AM, said:

Allright, here's an oddity for you all to ponder on.  I recently obtained a vintage American Caribbean Clipper, complete with box.  It has shooting cannons (YES!), dating it from around '89 or '90.  (I know that by '91, the shooting canons were gone.)  The minifigure heads for the sailers, the standard smilies, are all solid.  But Broadside's head is hollow!

I would love to see a pic(s) of that head (not that I don't believe you). Really interesting.

Once I had an ITP where the imperial guards' plain smiley heads had solid studs while all other heads had hollow studs.
As for cannons: I have two Lagoon Lockups that came with the black handles; I had 3 CCs, each one with a pair of the three different cannons.

Does anyone have anymore information on any sets that did at one time come with the black handled cannons? Are there any sets (probably newer ones) that came with non-shooting cannons worldwide?


...just coming back after a 2 month hiatus. :)

[TalonCard]

>As for cannons: I have two Lagoon Lockups that came with the black handles; I had 3 CCs, each one with a pair of the three different cannons.<

Now that's interesting.  My Lagoon Lock-Up box clearly shows the non shooting canon with the crossed canon mark.  Were these used or bought new?

Another interesting note: I distinctly remember having quite a few of the disabled black handled canons as a child, but I can't find a single one in my house--they're all the crossed canon kind.  The older ones just vanished.

I remember thinking for a long time that the black ones were the shooting canons, and being dissapointed because they didn't shoot too well.   :-D   Imagine my surprise when I finally obtained a shooting canon this year, and found you can fire them several feet and even knock over a minifigure if you aim right.  One more reason why Pirates rule.  ;)

TC

[Governor Broadside]

One Lagoon Lock-Up I bought from the store, I'd say around 93 or 94, the other from a lot on eBay. The seller kept very good care of the Lego and didn't mix sets together.

Last night on BL a Canadian mentioned that he's had 6 Harbor Sentrys, 2 with shooting, 2 with transitional, and 2 non-shooting.