Zepher

If I may offer my input on this general discussion (the revitalization of the story/new characters/attracting new people/how to keep a story alive a few years in). It's not something I really know about, but hoping to go into the entertainment industry it is something that interests me (it's something that EVERY show runs into - how can it stay fresh, but not alienate old fans, etc.). I have given this a lot of thought in the context of Heroica, and I don't think shorter quests or a revamp or more characters is the answer (though I don't think in small amounts they'd hurt, of course ). I think that long and short quests both have a place, as a side note. People have been clamoring for shorter quests since about the 70s, and I know that QMs have been doing their best to make the game fun for all - but that includes themselves, and I can tell you that it is extremely fun to really build a full LONG story, and satisfying to give a one two punch of a short quest - but that's not really what I'm going to be talking about, that's just my two cents. I think it is Sandy who hit the nail on the head most of all (a surprise to no one, perhaps). I think we want to return to the feeling of something new - but how can we do that when we have so much beautiful lore? Wouldn't that betray all that? And what fun would it be to re-start exploring the world? No fun at all - but that exploration is what we're actually looking for - more dark corners in the map. But even exploring new territory is growing wearisome, because again we've already experienced that. So, what you do is change the status quo, not the location. We reinvent the world that the characters live in. I actually strongly disagree with Flipz when he suggested that we're doing that Carter affect thing where we aren't resolving plot lines and relying on twists too much. There aren't enough twists, in my opinion. Everything is rather predictable because we know how this world WORKS at this point. I think my point will be best articulated by example. From the beginning of the game, the central plot (the Sandy Plot, which we all know is the plot that really is the beginning/end of the story - and that's not a criticism, I will talk about that as my point two) has been the six houses fighting each other subtly, with rivals of two pairs, and the Wolfgang hanging around. That's status quo, and all other quests MUST conform to that, so there is no shock there. BUT what if (and this is how I WOULD do it, but that's not a criticism either) on Quest 106 heroes had to go retrieve something for Nemo Bonaparte, and when they returned, he was dead! Sure, that generates one more quest (who killed him!) but what it really does for the WORLD is that now there are open seas in Eubric. There are pirates now, pirates aplenty. How do the other houses react to the influx of pirates (this could be a series of quests by a series of QMs). The Ji Pei fill the power void. Automatons roam the streets, the new police force (again, a series of quests that could be fresh to QMs) and Pirates hire the heroes! One of the Veterans just lost a husband, how does she react? The remaining Bonaparte captains - where do they go, what do they do? The point is that it doesn't ignore the Eubric of old. All the lore is the same. Five houses are still in power, and they still squabble, but now they do it with totally new elements. All the events still happened. BUT now we're somewhere new. EVERYONE of the QMs would have to tweak quests they have down the pipeline to correct for this. The stories could still happen the same exact way, but instead of swerving right, maybe they swerve left. It would make us feel like we're exploring unexplored territory again, but there'd still be all the beautiful old stuff to pull on. My second point - limitation creates art. If I had a quest I had planned for a year from now, and this change occurred tomorrow, I'd have time to tweak it. And it would probably end up a stronger quest for it, because it would force me to tweak it. The world has changed. How do my NPCs react? Their lives have changed, and in a way I didn't plan. So they adapt, and they grow, and their new but still their old selves. And THAT is the reason it's an issue that Sandy and only Sandy steers the main story line. Would it be better if we all could change Heroica? No. Sandy has said before SOMEONE needs to be at the reigns, and that is absolutely 100% true - if we could all change the status quo it would be changed every 3 weeks. But if Sandy secretly gave someone else the ability to change the status quo with one quest: a) we'd be more invested in the story lines of non-Sandy quests, because maybe they can and do change the world of Heroica, and b) Sandy would have to rethink some things. And Sandy, I mean no offense by this. Your quests are wonderfully inventive, and you absolutely consider what other people do, but you're never thrown a curve ball. A personal example: my finale was originally going to take place in the desert of Azzurat, but then you took it from me. Then it was going to take place in the far North, but then Endgame took that. So I had a third idea, and I can genuinely say I think it's better than the first two. But I would have NEVER thought of it if you two hadn't forced me to. So it's not a critique of your creativity - we all just have a tool you don't have. Anyway, that's my log two-cents. Change the status quo to renew the sense of exploration/finding the world, and in doing so we'll force all QMs to take their stories on a minor left turn and maybe go with their second idea instead of their first, and if there's anything the world of art creation (and I do consider designing quests art - it's story telling, after all) has taught me, it's that revision is what makes something good.

Very nice build, beautiful sense of motion! If there's one complaint - the MOC feels very segmented. There is the dark tan ground, and then the gray rocks, and then the light gray wall. It's nice looking and perhaps even more realistic than the alternative, but it doesn't help draw the eye, which is unfortunate considering the movement in the MOC. Some color drawn through the whole thing would have been cool - maybe moss on the ground/wall/between rock, or maybe even hints of the dark tan mixed in with the wall - just suggestions! It's nit-picky, but it's something worth considering. The MOC is already beautiful and absolutely achieves it's goal - but now you've got something to chew on for the future!

Fun looking figure, and the "action" in the background makes this a dynamic MOC.

XX and Russel follow Purpearl's orders - XX with a grin, Russel with a sidelong glance that catches both Matthias and Purpearl.

Maybe split the party, and have them try to race towards the goal... of course, one of the two parties would be Tholar on the solo, so, you know, best of luck. Again, Sandy and I (and everyone!) have different QM styles, and this isn't a suggestion, just a brain storm for how I would handle it.

I don't know how Sandy handles quests, but as a QM I would personally probably create punishments and advantages for different actions. It is possible to fail quests, something some players seem to sometimes forget. Maybe throw everyone in a prison, let Tholar continue on alone, have him KO'd, and then, end of quest, send another party. Or let the party get away, and with no one to blame, the guards go after Tholar and throw him in the clink for the rest of the quest. See if the party comes back for him this time around. In all honesty, that IS how I'd handle it. I used to say quest goes on no matter what, but post 53 I've been trying to get more experimental - none of my parties have pushed me yet, but I think real actions should have real consequences, and just as I beg players to let the quests affect them permanently (I think that makes for the best quests) I also beg quests to allow heroes to affect them (I think it makes for better quests). We can point them in a direction, but if they do something else, so be it. Hell, look at XX being in 102. That spot was originally open to, when I planned 102 (way back in an early draft, before 53 was run): Poletad, Hans, and Triad [the other real major contender]. But players chose XX. So he's there.

XX hands his cannon off to Matthias as Russel and Pigley come bowling back into the tavern. "This is a very temporary loan." "Oh dear," says Pigley languidly. "I guess we've got another problem on our hands."

Eric is another breath of fresh air, and so is Althior. Lots of morally questionable characters... to a REAL degree. I'd say 100 is the most unique party so far, probably, which is awesome except that it makes it hard for them to get anything done.

I love Nur and Tholar. VERY different perspectives. Make the world whole.

! - Because of my excessive use of !'s. Thanks to JimBee (I think). I'm excitable, what can I say. Green! - Still excited, but now with a green star under my name! Don't know who from.

Boomingham ages, Nyx has not (something that makes their relationships morph over time ). Boomingham's is sometime in spring - he doesn't keep up with it strictly, so neither do I.

Thank you! I didn't think it was intentional, just wanted to point it out! I included the link so you wouldn't have to fish around to know what I'm referring to.

Boomingham bites his tongue at just about everything, and stares ahead fixedly at nothing.

I'm a-okay with that. I'm also okay with some QMs having inconsistent lore. There's a lot of quests to read, I'm sure I've mucked something up before too. What she (and the other Red Assassin, having shown herself fighting) failed to suffer from is Red Death, for those interested in lore.

Well, it throws out a majority of the lore I introduced for Red Assassins in 72, but I'm happy to see them used again. Maybe Avery is just bonkers and suffers from nose bleeds for no reason what so ever.

I am also a huge fan of Fenerians! Every single one that was appeared so far has been an awesome design.

Pigley and Russel step outside, still doing their best to hum along to the music - it appears they will do their grazing now, and be ready to move along shortly. XX also throws down ten gold for some food. "I'll be ready whenever," he says.

"No dice. Tell you what, though. Once we arrive in Eubric, I can rustle something up for you. It won't be as nice as what you've got, but it will serve for the time being. Like I said, Everyman's got lots of friends, and his friends are my friends."

XX, with a flick of the wrist, sprinkles 14 gold on the counter. "An extra ten gold, to make sure you make it extra nice," he says to the Tritech Representative. "I get to try it out when she's done," he tells the gnome.

I've done tarot before, but only for people I know. It's a hell of a lot of fun - it's essentially just story telling - weaving together things. I'm not shocked Kinto is good at it. Also, I advise other QMs to have host QMs, it's really nice to have a few days off, I already feel re-energized to host the next parts of the quest.

I'm glad you did so I didn't have to.

So we chose the wrong guy. I guess it's kind of a downer to have to go through the whole fight, but I think its fair that we lose it... maybe we can skip ahead to that, Scuba?

"Have fun, Atramor." Boomingham leans against the wall, knowing he won't be up to much for a while. "We really are here for security. Or at least that's what we were told."

"We would, but she can't understand us." "Besides, we've made the lady happy! And I like the music!" XX watches with removed interest.

I thought Flipz' and my reviews of the quest would actually have been more different than I think they will turn out to be (Flipz and I don't always agree on story telling, but perhaps we're coming to be more alike as we continue to play this crazy game ). I also, sadly, wasn't the hugest fan of the quest - and I say this with full respect to you! 70 is still one of my all time favorite quests to have been on. So know that I say this with respect and admiration - but I had a lot of problems with the quest. I only tell you them because I have complete faith you can improve on them. Also I just worked 8 hours for a crazy shift and its late night so maybe all these sentences aren't the prettiest sentences, but hopefully they'll still be comprehensible. 1) I'll start off with something Flipz addressed - the incredible Arthur bent of this quest. Flipz, first off, I want to commend you. You DO have a tendency to steal the show, and with this quest seemingly geared towards that, purposely or by accident, you did it FAR less than you sometimes do/were in a position to do. I think you showed great restraint, and hopefully it didn't make it less fun for you. I feel Arthur still grew and did lots, but he overshadowed the other characters through the quest's design, not your actions. So, congrats on that. This quest was so strictly Arthur, it felt insane. I know he's wrapped up in your plot (it does bother me that he knows the Regret from a cut scene that happened in the Hall and that he's an inky for the same reason... I feel like he's done enough on quests he doesn't need extra stories outside them [the Lion Knights being a good example of something that happened in quest and then carried on out of quest, so that's the sort of thing I thinks cool]) but it was so damn Arthur centric it sort of felt silly to even bother having other characters there. He knew Regret, Masson, mining... everything he said, basically. I don't know. It just felt like the other two characters were tossed to the side. And then Lyenne was drawn to him, and he saved the Book Dauntlet... hell, you even got rid of the other two characters and had them play other characters, and it didn't really CHANGE anything, so, what does that tell you? 2) SPEAKING of the Book Dauntlet and Lyenne - eh. Why? I mean, why make them good? Why make them salvageable? I feel like you're a little afraid to kill all your darlings. Was the Book cool? Yes! Was it cool when it turned out it was a cool dude at heart? Um... less so? Was it cool to see people damaged by The Regret? Actually, sort of. Was it cool to be able to save the only one that you made sympathetic... I guess so? No. Not really. I'm not trying to be a downer, but wouldn't your characters be more diverse, more awesome if NO Lyenne was beyond saving and the heroes had to just straight up kill her and NO the Book Dauntlet betrayed Arthur or didn't betray Arthur but wasn't all buddy buddy. It's the same as rail roading, sort of, and even less satisfying for me to see: the best action is hinted at, easy, and has no downsides. Everyone is the good guy. Meh. Which brings me to: 3) My biggest complaint, and something I thought Flipz would not touch on but did and in a similar fashion I wanted to - he even used the same critiques. Your villains. They're not particularly diverse - we sort of know what's coming. Here's Big Bad! But boy does he have a heart of gold and a tortured past (Mythrogg, Regret, Doppel, Masson, Stealer of Senses, Aquos, probably some of the other baddies from the Progg arch, the Monolith). It's just not diverse, and it feels sort of... contrived, like Flipz said. What if the Regret didn't have a sad past. What if he was just straight up insane and evil. (Side Note: for someone who considers the heroes so little he sure loves talking to them a lot). Again, I'm sorry if this is mean, but they do feel not that fleshed out sometimes. I feel like they can be more nuanced, and I feel that YOU have it in you to do it. Here's my suggestion: look at your best villain (in my eyes) to date - Masson Cour. Now, I have my problems with him too (he went very quickly to paragon of lovable "bad" quirks and noble feelings) BUT when he was a villain, he was rad. He polarized the party. He had a sad past (hell, the heroes killed his cousin [i think it was]). But YOU knew you were going to make him a goodie in the end. SO - why not view all villains that way? They certainly view themselves that way (because that's how people work). What if, instead of the Monolith being another baddie with a secret heart of gold - what if he was someone who HAD to defend this land because that's what he'd been told to do. That's not bad but secretly good. That's just some dude doing his job who is against the heroes. The Book Duantlet - what if he just loved stories. Would have still allowed for the immersion, but maybe he betrays the heroes later because he could give a sh*t about them, and it would be a better twist, and THAT's really what he lives for. What if Masson has a problem with his lack of sleep - what if it's not adorable, and what if he pushes someone to far and they die, or that they quit and hate his guts and he tries to win them back because he can't handle rejection and he becomes obsessed because he does that. What if the Regret has NO PAST. What if he just is evil. Sheer evil. Iago. I think you have it in you to give us less bad masking good. View them not as that, but as someone who is acting independently of bad v. good, of villain v. hero. View them as just another dude that you could run into on the street. View them as heroes. Also, I knew Flipz would love it - Minoid shouldn't have been grasping for human emotions. (Well, I don't want to say shouldn't - clearly it was the highlight of the quest for Flipz, so here's where we feel differently). It felt too hopeful. Why not just be a robot devoid of emotions? Wouldn't that be a more diverse character than another person trying to figure out what it means to be human. We already have so many of those characters. So, really, I think you can tell a more diverse story with a more diverse cast. I guess my complaint is that your story feels too perfect. The heroes taught Minoid about emotions, found out the secrets of Nevermore, saved the two redeemable characters, and freed the creature that wanted to be freed. If you had told me all the secret troubles they'd face in the quest, and asked me what the most predictable/happy outcome would have been, I'd have said that. There wasn't even any shocking HAPPY twists. It may have not been railroaded, but it FELT railroaded. What was the conflict? Not like what battles did they fight, but what was the conflict? I guess that's why I'd say that I loved 70, and didn't really love this. The conflict of that was what: love, loyalty to your organization, are people redeemable? What was the conflict of this? You can do better! And you didn't do horribly! I (clearly) read the whole thing (I don't do that for all quests due to time constraints). I was impressed by the players. You offered them some good bits! But if I patted you on the back and said great job, then the finale wouldn't be the best quest you've put out so far, and I know you CAN make a better quest, because we're all getting better!