Dragonator

Awww.

What game? I can assure you we have never claimed to each other when we were on opposite sides, ever, that would be stupid. We want to win these games, doing that would just make the other one kill us. And I would disagree, my plan from the start was to try and find the scum team, convince them I had a survival win condition, and then tell them who I am. Don't assume you know my strategy! The mere fact I asked you "So, I'm neutral. If, in the event, there happened to be a scum converter, and they attempted to convert me in the knowledge that I can be converted, would I be?" should probably have at least hinted to you that it was being discussed. But I will not labour the point, I was merely giving some advice. The note about separate scum PMs is probably the main one that should be kept in mind in future. The "arbitrary shouldn't" isn't at all what you just said. I said you should not plan to reveal someone's role, either with clues or without. Allow for it to happen in the game mechanics, but don't plan on it and then panic when the player figures out a way for it not to happen. Of course I don't want my role revealed, of course I'll try to find the best way to avoid that. It was more the "I planned to have this sub-plot work this way by revealing it like this" impression that I was saying you shouldn't have. Anyway I didn't want to get into a long back and forth about it, I just meant to point out one or two spots that I think you could improve on in an otherwise fantastic game. And of course I've already said how much I loved the game, and it would take forever to list all the really cool elements you included. Now gimme my evil minion army.

Mmhmm, the one problem with that is that if I had not told Shadows I was the serial killer, he would have found out later and killed me for it if I was not properly converted as I feared. So I logically made an early claim to him after I found out I could be converted, which eliminated the possibility of surprise later. Not my fault you assumed I wouldn't think strategically. I did ask for a clarification on what would happen if I was converted and didn't end up getting an answer, so I covered all my bases and was as honest as I could be with my potential new allies. A good piece of advice for hosts: don't always assume you know everything! Your players do talk to each other in private, and they will find out things from those discussions. I would also strongly advise against a group scum PM in games which have usurper roles or roles similar to that. It isn't really even necessary in games without to be fair. If each scum member had an individual role PM, there would never have been an issue. Scum can make their own PM for discussion, or use those silly writeboards, there isn't any need for a group PM with the host. Small things, but they are the sort of things which can help avoid conflict or confusion. Personally I don't think it is ever necessary for the entire scum team to see the role PMs of the rest of the team; role PMs should be private, as a rule. Never, ever plan to "slowly reveal" a game mechanic or role. Things like that have to happen organically. If there is one thing I think you could still improve on Hinck it's avoiding host interference. You can't always be in control! Let the players do as they will, and if they make a decision that blows a hole in a cool sub-plot you wanted to do, then so be it. That's all part of playing the game; taking risks and seeing if they work out for you. Sandy's little made up night action result is a classic example of that. Anyway, all theoretical discussion, as all hosts do things differently and have small mistakes that have to be handled by those playing. Doesn't make things invalid, doesn't mean it wasn't a really well hosted game, just means that there are always things to be improved on, adapted, or done differently next time, as with every game we have had on EB.

I'm not sure why you keep assuming that, it is not even slightly true. Sure we talk about Mafia, just like other people send PMs to each other, but we always start out accusing each other of being scum, and then eventually see if we can work together more. I would never roleclaim to Shadows if I was scum and he was town, he would just find a way to kill me. And the reverse is true, Shadows would only roleclaim to me (or any other person for that matter) if it would be to his advantage. We did not share our roles on day one, Shadows would probably have killed me right there for being the SK. I even thought he was probably the stump until halfway through day 2, as I thought that would be something cruel you might do Hinck, so there was no way I was going to roleclaim to him. No, he investigated me and after he found me corruptible, he approached me on day 2 and we discussed whether it would be worth converting me. Even then it was the usual "if I were scum", no mention of anything I could use against him if the conversion went wrong and I went and shouted it out to everyone. At that point I told him that I could kill, since I wanted him to convert me rather than killing me and waiting to convert someone a bit more useful. It was a tough call but I thought it would be the best way for me to survive the game, if I could somehow team up with the scum. The weaker plan was that if I couldn't be converted, I would be an SK that could survive to win with them, despite the win conditions stated in the rules. I wasn't even sure if I could be "converted" at that point, because how could my win condition transfer to a scum team? Then of course I became a double agent, much like the usurper role that Foog pointed out. I treated mine as being similar to that; on the team, but with a different win condition that would require betrayal. It's a unique role, and I think part of the issue is that it hasn't been done before on EB. We've had usurpers before, Lord Rotrigous was a fantastic one. Variant SK roles are tough, and this one was as close to the proper thing as we can get. I think the main assumption that shouldn't be made is that the SK just has to survive; that is not a normal SK win condition! Once I was on the scum team I had an easy time finding the stump, which was out to expose me and kill me, as well as getting rid of town roles that might give me away. I would still have shown up as an SK to the town investigator, not a Cultist, that would really have blown things for me. A major hint once stumpy was dead was in my retaining the kill; if I just had to kill stumpy and survive, why would I keep killing? I was a bit worried things would go badly after that, but we kept things focused on killing townies and never really looked at the inconsistencies in my actions. I guess it all comes down to standard Mafia play; if you're town, you either get lucky with actions or you have to use your observations. The same went for finding my role, you either got lucky or you figured it out from my somewhat inconsistent actions. Anyway, those are my few thoughts on my role and such, I hope this can be a learning experience for everyone. Yeah it was just a random kill sorry Bob, I went for someone nobody had really discussed and who hadn't attempted to push votes against anyone on day one.

Hinck thank you so much for all the work you put into this game, you did a fantastic job. Every day had awesome things to read, and that video was just epic. I love how the village gradually went to hell, you did a very effective job with the pictures. Presentation was top notch, from the cute mod notes and interludes to the fun little night puzzles. Certainly an example for other hosts to look up to. Scum, great team work, I really do wish we could have made it together. The sacrificing of Horace was a great show of team play, and I didn't even feel like a neutral until that last night really. Sure I purposefully missed a kill to make sure we got down to the right number before we outnumbered the town, but on the whole we were a great team, very deserving of making it to the end. I would have loved to bring you all back to life, but spirit said no. As a neutral, you did a hell of a good job compared to the town.

So yeah, hey guys. So much blood, the spirit is pleased... maybe he will bring back my Becka. Shadows I wish we could have won together... I will have lamb chops tonight in your honour.

Well, I think it's pretty clear what needs to be done today if we want to get through this. Vote: Gilda Goat (Quarryman)

Well... this is odd. I'm glad we got Horace, he definitely needed to go after too many days of avoiding the vote. I am a little confused that Cameron came up town though... so how many scum do we actually have left? Clearly not a majority if we are still here, so I guess we haven't completely lost hope. I would guess at two of them plus the axe murderer. If he has to kill everyone as people seem to think, then he will probably vote with the town so that the scummy cultists don't get a majority and take our souls forever, right?

Well as I said earlier, I feel the choice is clear for today. We've tossed around a couple of potential lynch candidates, but when it comes down to it, we need to lynch the person we are most sure of. I feel that person is Horace, so I shall Vote: Horace Horse (iamded).

Oh baby!

I couldn't have said it better myself Pancho, I certainly feel it's time for Horace to hit the hay once and for all. As nice as your reasoning sounds Cameron, it is all coming from you and only you, while we have several confirmed townies that have presented evidence against Horace. He has to be one of them. While Shawna could well also be a cultist based on your evidence, I feel we can be far more certain of Shawna. Since this could be our last vote, we must make it count. Horace has avoided the lynch day after day; only someone with the resources of the cultists could have done so. Grrr. Grrr. I don't like this one bit, we have cut it far too close if the flower clue is anything to go by. That doesn't mean it is over though, we still have a chance, and I sure as hell am not going down without a good fight. Once we have dealt with Horace, we can turn to other evidence.

Oh cool, I was doing that too! Thanks for your insightful comments. Grrr. Grrr. Got my eye on you.

Well that's a really crap result. Grrr. Grrr. I'm certainly glad to see Gordon was a townie, that and the other townie deaths however are very worrying, particularly when looking back on the last few days... someone has been going to a lot of effort to make sure we don't lynch the correct people, and I think it is beginning to become apparent just who that is. Pancho I can somewhat agree with that proposition, I have noted that Mindy hasn't done much other than accuse a few people of not saying enough, when she has barely said anything helpful herself. The other two people that really need to be looked at now are Horace and Cameron. Now that we know Maurice was a townie, I guess some weight needs to be given to his words, particularly as our numbers are becoming so thin. It is vital that we lynch the correct candidate today. Maurice had a lot to say about Horace yesterday, as did several other people. Cameron was very convincing in swinging those thoughts towards Maurice instead though, and so I feel he needs some scrutiny as well. This will be an interesting day... I wish Becka was here to hold me and wax my nuts.

Well all in all I'm not feeling very confident with today's vote. At the start of the day I was leaning towards Horace based on the few things we'd heard so far against him, such as Brigit's accusation yesterday. However after Cameron's analysis of Maurice's actions I don't feel anywhere near as confident there. A lot of what he said makes sense, and I have the feeling he is a townie after he lead the charge against Casey yesterday so I am going on the assumption that I can take what he has said at face value and not look for manipulation. Looking it over he makes some valid points, and I feel the examples he has pointed out weigh more strongly than what has been pointed out against Horace. The problem I have is that I still have an underlying suspicion towards Horace, just generally from how he has acted. Not really evidence no, not really something I can point to, but count it as a feeling. I was wrong about Pennie though, so I could well be wrong here too I guess. I will be very interested in the results of today's vote. Since I think we will learn the most from Maurice's death, and it will give us a clearer idea of what to do tomorrow, I will vote: Maurice Mouse (Cecilie) based on Cameron's reasoning. He saw as through well yesterday, I think it's the best thing we can do today as well. Could someone maybe wax my back for me? It would remind me of Becka... I loved how much she wanted my applesauce when she did that.

Hinck you are insane and I want your babies. :wub: :wub:

Well we're making progress at least, this is good. I'm disappointed to see Pennie was town after how she acted throughout the last few days, but her death does offer us some insight into the people that she interacted with. The same goes for Casey now that we have confirmation of her vile deeds. Cameron I like you, you make a lot of sense. That seems like a pretty logical theory to me, although I am curious about night 2. Several people seem to believe the SK has been converted to the scum side, perhaps it happened then? That would make the most logical sense to me. This worries me a lot as it makes tracking actions at night a whole lot harder. If we still have a tracker around I would urge you to be wary of who you've seen targeting people. An innocent looking target which didn't end with a kill could well have been one of these hijacking actions. Yeah I can't really see Cameron defending them strongly if they are all scum, it wouldn't be very tactful at this stage. I'd also doubt it after Cameron so strongly advocated for Casey's lynch yesterday, I don't see why he would have done that if they were both on the same side. Is that the sort of thing you can even try to find in a Mafia game... of life? If so I guess it could be interesting, maybe linked with the statue riddles or something? I wish Becka was here... I need to have my nipples clamped so bad...

I suppose you can have your whip back Horace, since Becka can no longer use it... ...maybe you would use it on me? I am a bear and I rummage through garbage... looking for fish... grrr.

There are already votes against you, I could quite easily have "jumped on" if I wanted to. Still no answer to any of the accusations placed against you I notice, just more whinny attacks. I still think both Pennie and Casey could easily be scum, we shouldn't be confining ourselves to a one-or-the-other vote. I honestly don't care which one goes first, they are both unhelpful and equally suspicious. My own reasoning was more in favour of Pennie being scum, but I was willing to take a moment from that to listen to other options, like that presented by Cameron. Since Casey has actually bothered to try and answer some of the questions posed to her, I think I will change my vote, as Pennie has done no such thing. Unvote: Casey Cat (Scouty), Vote: Pennie Pig (Eskallon). Don't think you're off the hook though Casey, I still intend to hear more from you, a lot of what you have done does not add up. I would welcome some other opinions on which way people are considering going. Fish... so tasty...

Thank you. Fish... om nom nom... Particularly salmon...

Mmm no that's fine, I just think it's a pity you are focusing so much on such a small thing when we are attempting to determine whether Casey is worth voting for, and whether people still feel that Pennie needs to be lynched. But you may of course act as you please, helpful or not. I note you still haven't given any opinion on Casey despite my repeated requests for an answer. Does she seem like a cultist to you, or a townie? I miss my Becka, at least she was easy to understand. When I asked for nipple clamps, I got nipple clamps, pure and simple. I really need some fish...and a sleep...

That was my reasoning yes, you don't have to agree with it. I would see the meatshield example as indicating Pennie is more guilty, not less guilty. You never answered my question asking why you think we can so quickly ignore Cameron's remarks regarding Casey. You seem to be defending her extremely strongly, and just admitted to trying to direct votes away from her. Why are you so convinced she is town? I will most gladly vote for Pennie as I have said, several of the animals here were keen yesterday but ultimately Ralphy was seen as more likely to be scum. I am hoping that by putting the pressure on both of these people we will get a fairer indication of whether both are scum, or whether it is just Pennie. I noted in my original speech that I would probably change my vote, yet you are determined to make a big deal out of it. Almost seems you are the one panicking Poncho at the thought of Casey being convicted. I honestly can't see what there is to make such a fuss about this early in the day, your sudden attack seems very weird. I might go catch some fish from the river...

That makes just as little sense, if I was trying to push away from Pennie I wouldn't have reposted all of my reasons for wanting to vote for her. My implied statement above was that Pennie is attempting to meatshield Casey by voting early for a fellow cultist to try and clear her name. Clearly such tactical thoughts are above your little mind. I made the point that on Day one, Pennie did exactly as you are doing now, she worked hard to lynch someone other than Casey. Now, she is very quick to try and convict Casey, as if trying to get in early with a fast attempt at a meatshield. I think it's entirely possible that both are cultists by that logic. I am still pretty keen to lynch Pennie, however I can respect the logical thoughts that Cameron presented above and would like to hear a response to them from Casey, hence my vote. I think they make sense, there wasn't any need to repeat them. As we are in no rush and should explore all possibilities, I am actively using my vote to put pressure on Casey to answer. Funny that you completely ignored all of that and immediately latched on to me, it's almost like you are desperate to direct the votes away from Casey. Why is that, is there some reason you think Cameron is wrong about Casey? On the first day I didn't vote because I never felt there was a strong enough case against any one person, much like several other people. There is no requirement to vote every day. My long afternoon nap did not help me in placing a pointless late vote either, but then you would complain of that if I had. You complain now when I vote early, so there is clearly no pleasing you at all. I could probably go back and make similar comments about your voting pattern, that would be just as helpful. In the vote yesterday, I made several long statements weighing up the reasons for either vote, and settled on Pennie because I felt, and still do feel, that she has done a lot of weird things that she still hasn't even attempted to explain. Every time she is asked, she waves it off saying she has already explained it or some other snarky remark. She is still very high on my list. sleep... I want to sleep... so sleepy in winter...

I hope you have a bit more than that to share Edgar! This could be a very important vote today, your insight would be useful.

Ah good, just checking that you hadn't come up with any real reasons yet. The last few speeches have given me a bit to think on now. While I am still highly suspicious of Pennie, I can completely understand the reasoning behind those of you voting for Casey. I will be very interested to hear what she has to say in defence, as some goods points have been made. For now I will tentatively agree with Cameron's reasoning, he makes a good case. Vote: Casey Cat (Scouty). Pennie is still ringing alarm bells for me though, when I questioned how she got her suspect list from her long "vote analysis" just now, she had no answer other than to mumble something about considering her options. I am so glad we don't have a pig for a mayor. :hmph: I would also observe that she is very quick to vote for Casey today when on day one she was doing everything she could to direct the vote elsewhere at Petey. Yes, still nightly suspicious in my view. The reasoning behind voting for Horace is rather less clear. It would be useful to those of us trying to make up our minds if you could expand a bit, First Lady. Maybe some references to suspicious behaviour or something so that I can look at it? This town always makes me think about hibernating... Mmm winter, cold and hard...

How the hell did you reach that conclusion from your "vote analysis"? I think you just mentioned my name because I wanted to lynch you yesterday, is that not so? For those of you not in the loop, here's what was said against Pennie: We have this rather long analysis by Shawna, followed by my own thoughts and then those of Ernie. I do find this interesting, Pennie was so convinced on day one to lynch Petey, but now is attempting to downplay that and also attempting to be vague about the reasoning against Ralphy. Pretty much what I get from this is "oh he could be scum, he could not be, it's hard to tell". Very ambiguous. I find it very interesting - and a little worrying - that two of the people wanting to split the vote and go for Pennie are now dead. I certainly find her to still be pretty suspicious, especially with this rather long and useless reposting of the votes. I hope you find that helpful Pancho since you asked, what is your opinion on it all? Fantastic reasoning Mindy, I didn't quite catch why though? Probably my ears are still filled with garbage.