Shadows

I am town, take that however you want, it isn't meant to erase suspicions, it was just a response to someone saying that I was following bandwagons when in fact I was just considering each situation as it arose. The important part is that I may or may not be town in the morning. You may or may not be town now or in the morning. At some point, people will understand that nothing that anyone is saying is permanent or can be trusted. I've been led to believe that Scouty was as surprised and suspicious of Hinck's sudden turn at the end of the day as I was. Maybe he's telling me the truth, maybe he's lying. What do you think of the "bandwagon" they started? Whatever the case, you're right, the revelations tomorrow should help.

Now that he's posted his reasoning, which doesn't actually say anything, I see no reason to change my vote. Hinck, who is either being duped or is scum, will die shortly, and my vote will stand against Pandora who I also believe to be scum. I have a bad feeling the two teams just found each other but can't figure out how to save one of their own before it's too late. Where did I say that was the reason? Hinck and Scouty gave a lot of reasons and now it's becoming obvious that at least one of my votes today was correct. Don't worry, we'll figure this out. Or maybe you should worry, huh? Notice how you avoid the real issue, the obvious scum tell on her part, and just go back to attacking me? I bet others will notice as well. You know why I said I couldn't be as much as Rick does, I always say it so maybe the idiot scum won't convert me. I'm also bulletproof and lynchproof, naturally. I was the only one confused by the change in the way "day kills" were timed or Scouty being told one role by name and given another? That's scummy to you? The latter one, if Scouty is telling the truth, was literally a host mistake and he says we'll be seeing a comment to that effect at the end of the game, so excuse me. You always attack me, it's what you do in every single game, it's why you were so easy to manipulate in the last one. You're predictable and boring about it. Why bother fighting that? I voted Scouty because he wrote what appeared to be a very suspicious PM to me and you exposed the ones he wrote you. Once he explained, I unvoted and wasn't the only one that thought it made you look suspicious. I only unvoted you because of the things you said about Pandora that Scouty was able to confirm and how much he suddenly seemed to trust you. I assumed he knew more than he could say, which seemed like a smart town attitude. That doesn't seem inconsistent at all.

Thanks for proving I'm town, it's already well established that I don't read. As I said before, scum are usually the most vocal about their supposedly important roles as people with real ones try to keep that fact hidden, especially in a situation where there is no chance of them actually being lynched. You don't find that the least bit suspicious? Really?

He hasn't explained why and he was incredibly insistent while making the case, so it would be foolish to change votes. If none of the events of the day had occurred, I have no idea, and that's the only way for that situation to happen. Without Hinck and Scouty pushing so hard to change and making sense in their reasoning, my vote would still be on Hinck.

Since it was his case that he was using Scouty to push so hard, I think it's best to leave it to him to explain that, especially since it was all centered around private conversations between them and things he said she lied about or tried to use against him that weren't true. He was very insistent that had occurred and what he said sounded truthful to me. Whatever, that's really the important part, not whether or not the scum benefit from knowledge that doesn't need to be advertised in case they missed it, right? Since both are claiming to be PRs, you must know exactly what each one can supposedly do to be able to decide which is less important to the town. It just gets more and more interesting.

Well, I spent part of the night listening to Scouty relay the case he and Hinck had against her and then Hinck sending it to me directly and then Scouty wanting to make sure we all changed our votes. It was all based on things I wasn't involved with, so to see that change at this point is a little surprising. Yes, you're both morons in that regard, to be blunt. It's why I said that we've helped the scum far too much today, and it just continues. I made my own mistake by exposing what Scouty had said to me and should have waited to see if he would say anything more suspicious, so it's the kind of mistake I can understand, but that doesn't make it any better. Everything is temporary in this game if the scum can convert, but it still has some meaning, and when combined with my unconvertable claim, I had hoped the scum wouldn't bother trying. There we go, let's just give the scum the whole damn game when it's absolutely unnecessary to discuss openly and you already knew all of this. Repeating that it doesn't say anything about tomorrow serves no purpose either, I've already said that as well. That's actually worse, you think both are likely to be town, but you want to decide which one dies if it comes down to that. If it was, you'd be more reluctant to say that, you'd probably try to avoid painting a target on yourself. Typically it's the scum who make claims like that, knowing they won't be killed by their own. Make a list of what I could have possibly not answered in your various attacks and I'll get to them tomorrow, if either of us survives. I didn't start the situation between Scouty and Hinck, so perhaps you can forgive the distraction that caused me to miss whatever it was.

When I'm scummy, I pick a vote and stick to it without giving any consideration to changes in the situation because literally, they don't matter. I don't think I've acted at all scummy, nor have I intended to as part of some silly attempt to trick the scum out into the open. I'm not a fan of the York method of play. As I stated when I unvoted, for much the same reasons as you, I should note, I was still concerned that it wasn't the right decision. I've also expressed that to him and Scouty privately, so no, my suspicion of him isn't gone, it's just that other factors have started to make sense and I'm voting accordingly. When the role Scouty described was being called weak doctor, it did see like a good opportunity to use part of that role for it's intended purpose, but even then I said it wasn't anything more than a temporary indicator, so I think you're overstating that considerably. As for the rest, I explained that to you in private, including the reason why I wouldn't explain it here. To even bring it up again seems particularly scummy in that light, especially since you admitted to already knowing the answer. You can't decide between them, but are more than willing to vote for either later if you're "forced" to. Very interesting.

Given that I suspected him on day 1, I was probably a little quick to continue that way of thinking after being convinced that you were telling the truth, but if I'm going to believe part of your story, I can't ignore the rest. So... Unvote: Hinckley I hope I don't regret this, but if the two of you are pulling something together, it would have to be the most elaborate and ridiculous thing since ... some crap that I pulled at some point. I don't think either of you is that good, don't prove me wrong. This is one of the things that makes me feel a little better about unvoting, I've had my own suspicions of Pandora, and a couple of others, since yesterday. At one point I held a theory that has since been proven wrong, and in proving it wrong, it's made a lot of things clearler to me. I have no intention of explaining that, it would only aid the scum, and I'm afraid we've all done too much of that already. Which leaves me to... Vote: Pandora And that is particularly troublesome given that there is no logical reason to jump to that conclusion, it's like setting us up for a series of failures and it's a pretty classic scum move, one I did far too many times to the point that I had to stop doing it because it was so obvious. Everyone who is part of this town is important to this town. Specifics only help the scum, so let's just stick to the general: we can't afford to make mistakes, we don't know what kind of opposition we're facing and every townie counts. I find the use of "(knowingly)" in the rules to indicate that the balance between town and scum may be a lot closer than we're used to, all hinging on them finding each other. As a result, we need to avoid losses at all costs. While I'm not sure that this vote will achieve that goal, it feels a lot more right after taking the time to read everything and look at the big picture as opposed to all the tiny scenes that played out along the way.

Fair enough, it isn't as if we could rely on any result for more than a day anyway. That would worry me more if people didn't seem to roleclaim to you all the time when they can't know what you are. I'd be more worried if he'd claimed to me first.

It means I believed it when I said it, but am starting to doubt everything in this damn game.

I went by the full page on weak doctor, which is what he told me he was. It's one thing to assume we're being taught a lesson about metagaming each other and quite another to assume the host would literally mislead the person being assigned the role. I think that's a silly theory, and one that other PRs could verify for themselves by seeing if their roles correspond with what they're called. That said, verifying that he is town, even though it's a temporary confirmation, would at least tell us that we weren't misled by him. Obviously there's no way to be sure what the host is pulling on us, especially in light of the way the kills have been timed.

It wouldn't surprise me, he's always obsessed with us as a pair even more than he is with us individually. If that was his intent, we can see how well that worked out for him. I can't speak for Draggy, but anyone who gives me any indication that they're scum is only going to get you on my radar for lynching, as it almost did with Scouty and his pm. On the subject of Scouty, it might be a good time to suggest investigating him tonight in an attempt to make sure we aren't being duped. If he turns out town, then his role claim would also be true, which would at least temporarily clear me as well (a weak doctor is a combination of protector and investigator and will die when targeting any non-town and that is the role he's both named and described). Obviously either of us could be converted after that, assuming that's possible to do to us, so any result for anyone on any day is always temporarily valid, but it's better than nothing. Sadly, this is going to be one of those check and recheck kinds of games where we can't ever trust anything for long.

From the quotes, it appears he spoke to Hinck, it turned into an argument, he wrote me, then Hinck exposed him and seeing that, I shared what I had, which was at the point of being weird, but not absolute yet. I would have preferred to try to get him to talk, but once I read the conversation he had with Hinck, it seemed pointless. And now this. I took the chandelier as a night kill since it happened in the opening before we could do anything, where we would normally see results, not new actions. Now this one says the action causing it took place at night (oats in the pocket), but the result was during the day, almost like a poisoner. Then he says 'zany', and it certainly was, which seems more psycho than anything else. I don't know what to think now. I officially retract every goddamn theory I've had about which killer is which, his sig is right, this host is a madman.

That quote is enough for you to assume she was the psychiatrist, a theory from someone who is assuming a psycho must have someone who can cure them when that's frequently not the case? Even the wiki says: and Let's not forget the rest of her post ... Is the psycho also our vigilante who needs to be cured?

That would be odd. You mean if we believe you and even you claim to have figured it out, unless I've missed somewhere that you've said she directly claimed it. I don't think I missed that, did I? I know she didn't claim it to me. Anyone else she was talking to able to confirm that she claimed it?

Not sure why this didn't count, maybe it was just missed. Glad I'm reconsidering it now that Scouty has revealed what he was doing. Unvote: Scouty And on that note... Hey Scouty, can you check his account of your conversation and find the post that looks edited and tell us if it was accurate or not? It really makes no sense at all. Well, we know he's not a fool , so that leaves ... Vote: Hinckley I'll be honest, what you sent me looked so scummy I thought you and Hinck might be trying some kind of silly sting, but when he posted the conversation with you, I naturally fell into believing that we'd actually caught a scum. I'm still not sure about you, but between the two, Hinck has a lot more indicators going against him and lynching him also deals with him being mayor when he doesn't seem trustworthy, which Pandora so kindly pointed out was a bad plan.

PR's can't always be converted, but when they are, they usually lose their abilities. There's no absolute rule on that. A SK can only be converted in games with idiot hosts, which means it's impossible in this one.

That's only when I'm using you to Jesus the town for a cult win and even then you briefly doubted you could have been used so badly until Amy confirmed that we planned it, at which point you said something hilarious that I ought to quote but for some reason I'll be kind and skip it. Seriously though, you don't think there's a cult again, do you? The funny thing is that I can't be converted and some of you out there know you can't be either, nor was I given any indication that I had been targeted (I wouldn't expect to be, naturally, since nothing happened). It does, at least, confirm my theory that the scum are idiots, you don't convert without investigating to determine you can and if the evidence presented is correct, we know that didn't happen since he was blocked the night before. That said, I have no problem supporting a lynch based on the evidence presented against Scouty, nor do I mind being watched, investigated or whatever else we have at our disposal, as a matter of fact, I hope you will because if it does turn out that he's scum, I'll have no real way to fight the lies that I've been converted unless those of you who can do so check me out tonight, so please do so. Thanks! I never once would have thought 'kekeke' during that, more like 'mwahaha', but to each his own, I guess. Vote: Scouty Oddly enough, that is the quote that makes the least sense, as well. Why, if Scouty is scum would he contact Hinck unless he thought Hinck was scum and they could unite? If that's happening, as it appears to be, why would there even be any reason to discuss me? If I was scum, I would have to be on one of their teams, so individual contact wouldn't be necessary. That part really does seem out of place, when you think about it.

Actually, it's funny you say that, because it would have been true before this... Haven't heard anything more. Don't really expect to. Consider me sold, there is no possible way that I can see that as anything but scummy. Interesting that you quote the "also used" definition, not the main one. To be perfectly honest, I didn't even have to Google it, I'm a gamer and it's use is common enough to not need explaining to me. I have never once heard it used to represent anything but insane laughter. For a quick source that isn't wikipedia, I would find the more accurate answer to be: “KEKEKE,” a popular Korean phrase that is comparable to “lolololol” in English from Know Your Meme, where it's history is explained. For a psycho killer. Seriously? I stand by my earlier statement, if this is the thought level of the town, we're screwed.

It's a pleasure to have your undivided attention as you turn a blind eye towards the inconsistent things that others have said. I don't think I've been inconsistent at all, I'm trying to look at this complicated and new situation that we are in and take all of it into consideration. There are bound to be surprises along the way and adjustments to be made, but it's all a natural progression. If you want to consider that as inconsistent, that's up to you, but do try to apply it equally, if you have any interest in doing so for the sake of the town. If your motives are elsewhere, keep doing what you are now. There are times when things are obvious enough to be absolutely certain about them. When people overlook those things, it makes me incredibly suspicious of their motives. I would simply think you weren't paying attention, but that's obviously not the problem here. It's funny you would bring up the last game with this host. Another coincidence, but at least a fun one. Our whole team was laughing at the town, but I don't recall any of us actually being jerks about it, we kept it to the writeboard where it belonged. The last time I was a jerk in game was, coincidentally, towards darkdragon in Excalibur and yes, she was scum and it caused exactly the right result, the one the town needed. Perhaps I mixed the two of you up there. As for being a massive twat, now you sound like Hinck, though that's always been in reference to others, I've never heard him use it on me. Absolutely. I am absolutely, unwaveringly, 100% certain that she was killed by the psycho killer. The host literally spelled it out for those who are reading and comprehending, or even just reading and taking the time to visit Google. If you want to tell me that def, living in Japan, used 'kekeke' for some other purpose than to indicate a psycho who is laughing as they commit their deed, go right ahead. If you aren't aware of the usage of that term, check it out for yourself, then come back and tell me that's the vig or even the scum. Don't even need to get in to the choice of weapon, but that makes it pretty obvious as well. You aren't that stupid. That means you're intentionally trying to avoid the truth. The question is why. To look helpful while causing confusion? Read above, nothing odd at all, the only thing that is odd is that anyone would choose to overlook what the host was kind enough to give us in favour of intentional ignorance. That's disappointing, but interesting to see that people were here and passed up a chance that was so clearly without risk. Very interesting, indeed.

Sarcasm is clearly lost on the internet. Oh, and it's also a coincidence that the people who wanted to lynch her are the ones fighting this issue. So much coincidence. I would ask why you're so insistent that it isn't when it's so obvious. I'd love to see everyone weigh in on this subject, is the 'kekeke' chainsaw killer the psycho or not? If not, who is? The RIP killer? The trap-looking chandelier killer? Funny, that position is usually reserved for Jesus, it's how he got the reputation, he thoroughly earned it and it would be a shame for you to so casually give it to me when it isn't even vaguely the case. Seriously though, you've had no problem stating things as absolute facts when they aren't. As for people not daring to challenge me, look, you just did. I only get nasty when they're scum, I remember how annoyed you got with that the last time it happened. If that's true, the town is lost.

I will add this, it's probably unfair to try to analyze the scum based on what I would do, it's just how I play, it's what I always do to try to spot them. In all honestly, it rarely works out because they don't do what I would do, so wasting a lot of time on my theories may be pointless. Doesn't mean I won't keep doing it and sharing what I think, naturally.

A game that doesn't risk our votes? Count me in. You might be surprised what I would try, and why it would be effective. Technically, the best reason to convert the mayor early is that for some unknown reason, people are saying that his survival wouldn't be a negative indicator, meaning he would be able to sit there for the whole game until he was needed, barring any mistakes. He didn't, actually, did he? All I've seen are claims that he said things and nothing from her at all. Much like his scum information. When something real is presented, we can discuss that matter further. Do you think she was killed by the psycho? I would, we've seen it before. A conversion should be the last thing done. I counted on it in a recent game, as a matter of fact.

1. You have no means of claiming it's a coincidence, any more than I can prove it isn't, but we know she was afraid of exactly that and seems to have only led one person to believe she was the psychiatrist, then she died. 2. Does anyone doubt that the chainsaw killer is the psycho? That seems pretty definite to me, which means anyone paying attention knows that's what happened.

There's no way to be sure they didn't try to convert him as well, that's true. Personally, I hope they did, that would mean they didn't convert someone else we don't suspect. My point, however, was that since they killed him, I think it's very unlikely that the two teams have found each other. If they had, I think they would have converted him and killed someone else instead of killing him. Let's face it, I know how scum think and that's what I would have done in that situation, which tells me they're either noobs or not working together yet. I don't necessarily see him as a safe target, but he was an obvious one and sadly, it seems to have worked. We can still hope he was watched in some way and that person can get the information out. And now that it seems obvious they wouldn't do it again, what are the odds they will? Except why would the SK pick her at all? We have one person claiming she was the psychiatrist, meaning she at least gave them reason to believe that, and then she was killed by the SK. I don't see her focus on the SK yesterday as giving that away, but it certainly seems like she made Hinck believe it. It's a pretty big coincidence, to me. I think he would at least be the target of some investigation if he was elected and not lynched, wouldn't he? Yes, killing him would be the more immediately way to clear up my suspicions, but obviously not if I'm the only one who has them, I have no desire to lead some kind of bandwagon, I just intend to put my thoughts out there and see if they make sense to others and should be acted upon. At least there was a chance of telling some difference. To be blunt, I had no idea who Flare was/is and wouldn't know a change in them if it slapped me in the face. I would have equally voted for any of the mafia veterans, no matter how good they are at being scum, just to have some hope of seeing a change. I'll admit, you've given that a bit more thought than I had, I just thought it was a chance to avoid one situation, but you're right, it does open up other possibilities. I'll have to give this more thought, though I still think there must be some way to use this to our advantage. Maybe the whole focus on mayor is too much, it is only for tiebreakers and anyone who broke a tie in favour of the scum would probably be lynched the next day, even if it was an innocent mistake.