Heroica RPG - Expert Job Class Discussion

[Endgame]

-Snippitysnipdeedoop-

The class seems a bit jumbled to me. A monster tamer with the power to grant effects to himself, use ether, and summon defeated foes? It seems like more of a Evoker mixed with a Rogue then anything else, with a hint of necromancer thrown in.

Also, some Monster specials may not transition well into usable moves for a summon's Shield roll.

[Masked Builder]

The class seems a bit jumbled to me. A monster tamer with the power to grant effects to himself, use ether, and summon defeated foes? It seems like more of a Evoker mixed with a Rogue then anything else, with a hint of necromancer thrown in.

Also, some Monster specials may not transition well into usable moves for a summon's Shield roll.

No no, the effect goes to the summoned creature, not themselves. That's exactly what it is.

True, but I think most probably would.

[Waterbrick Down]

What would be the stat's of the player's personal companion?

[Masked Builder]

What would be the stat's of the player's personal companion?

It's more like spell casting, not for use in battles.

[Waterbrick Down]

So the bolsters in essence effect the player, unless they have rolled a shield and have a past summon out there?

[Masked Builder]

So the bolsters in essence effect the player, unless they have rolled a shield and have a past summon out there?

No, it only ever effects the summon.

[Waterbrick Down]

Then the wording needs to be changed as currently bolster effects only the companion animal (which is different then the past summon). Thus the usefulness of the class only occurs after a shield roll?

[Sandy]

These are the master job classes in their current state. I am hoping to get some player feedback on these, because I'm unsure if I should boost their power or nerf them or what. They are not as unique or complex as the expert classes, more like combinations of the basic classes. I'm also wondering if they are in balance with each other.

So please, share your thoughts and make a difference.

MASTER CLASSES:

Highly accomplished heroes can choose one of three master classes once they reach Level 50. These classes combine and add to the talents of the basic job classes.

Mime (available to all) – These master thespians can assume any basic battle style they need.

• Additional Health: +20

• Additional Ether: +10 (+1 per level for classes without base ether)

• Weapons: Mimes can wield any weapon they want, including gems, scrolls and shields.

• Job Traits: Natural Respite (see Barbarian); Diplomacy (see Knight); Healing (see Cleric); Spellcasting (see Mage); Animal Talk (see Ranger); Flee (see Rogue)

• Battle Style: Mimicry – Mimes choose one of the six basic battle styles to use each turn.

- MIMIC BARBARIAN: The mime assumes the Brutal battle style for the turn.

- MIMIC CLERIC: The mime assumes the Blessed battle style for the turn.

- MIMIC KNIGHT: The mime assumes the Protective battle style for the turn.

- MIMIC MAGE: The mime assumes the Elemental battle style for the turn.

- MIMIC RANGER: The mime assumes the Ranged battle style for the turn.

- MIMIC ROGUE: The mime assumes the Stealthy battle style for the turn.

Paragon (available to Barbarians, Knights and Rogues) – These master strategists are admired by everyone.

• Additional Health: +25

• Additional Power: +5

• Weapons: Paragons use weapons suitable to Barbarians, Knights and Rogues, including shields.

• Job Traits: Initiative – The paragon’s party can freely use one item per member to prepare themselves at the beginning of each battle; Restoration – The paragon regains full health after each battle; Command – The paragon can command allied or neutral individuals to do his bidding; Retreat – The paragon can lead their party out of battle at will

• Battle Style: Tactical – Paragons dominate the entire battlefield.

1. SHIELD:

Veni Vidi Vici

– The paragon strikes all enemies with strength equal to their weapon power added to their level. (e.g. WP 25 + Level 50 = 75 damage to all enemies) The paragon also gains gold equal to the combined levels of all enemies that were defeated with the strike. The paragon then raises a barrier, protecting the entire party from all damage for the next round.

2. EXTRA CRITICAL HIT: The paragon attacks with strength equal to three times their weapon power added to their level. (e.g. WP 25 x 3 + Level 50 = 125 damage)

3. CRITICAL HIT: The paragon attacks the target with strength equal to two times their weapon power added to their level. (e.g. WP 25 x 2 + Level 50 = 100 damage)

4. TRUCE: The paragon calls for armistice, preventing anyone from attacking for the remainder of the round, Free Hits included. Healing and using undamaging items is allowed.

5. DEFENDED DAMAGE: The paragon is struck by the opponent’s attack. The power of the paragon’s shield decreases the effect of the attack. (e.g. 50 damage – SP 25 = 25 damage)

6. SPECIAL DAMAGE: The paragon is struck by the opponent’s special skill.

Prophet (available to Clerics, Mages and Rangers) – These master miracleworkers act on behalf of their deity.

• Additional Health: +15

• Additional Ether: +15 (+1 per level for classes without base ether)

• Weapons: Prophets can handle any weapon suitable to Clerics, Mages and Rangers, including gems and scrolls.

• Job Traits: Healing (see Cleric); Spellcasting (see Mage); Clairvoyance – The prophet can receive vital information or guidance through visions from their deity; Glossolalia – The prophet can speak in any language and communicate with any sentient being

• Battle Style: Miraculous – Prophets perform true miracles in battle.

1. SHIELD:

Alea Iacta Est

– The prophet performs the chosen action (attacking, spellcasting or healing) to all enemies or allies with strength equal to one to six times their weapon power added to their level, decided by an additional roll. (e.g. WP 25 x 1-6 + Level 50 = 75-200 (elemental) damage to all enemies or restore 75-200 health to all allies) Lucky-effect affects the additional roll as well. This does not deplete ether.

2. CRITICAL HIT/GREAT SPELL/HEAL MORE: The prophet attacks or spends 1 ether to cast an elemental spell with strength equal to two times their weapon power added to their level. Instead of attacking, the prophet can spend 1 ether to restore health to themselves or one of their allies equal to the power of their critical attack. (e.g. WP 25 x 2 + Level 50 = 100 (elemental) damage or restore 100 health)

3. HIT/SPELL/HEAL: The prophet attacks or spends 1 ether to cast an elemental spell with strength equal to their weapon power added to their level. Instead of attacking, the prophet can spend 1 ether to restore health to themselves or one of their allies equal to the power of their attack. (e.g. WP 25 + Level 50 = 75 (elemental) damage or restore 75 health)

4. AIM/AIMED SPELL/HEAL LESS: The prophet attacks or spends 1 ether to cast an elemental spell with strength equal to their weapon power only. Instead of attacking, the prophet can spend 1 ether to restore health to themselves or one of their allies equal to the power of their attack. (e.g. WP 25 = 25 (elemental) damage or restore 25 health)

5. DAMAGE/NO HEALING: The prophet is struck by the opponent’s attack. Optionally, any attempt of healing fails.

6. SPECIAL PROOF/NO HEALING: The prophet is struck by the opponent’s special skill, but cannot be inflicted with any negative effects caused by it. Optionally, any attempt of healing fails.

[Masked Builder]

I think they seem pretty balanced Sandy. Not too shabby.

Then the wording needs to be changed as currently bolster effects only the companion animal (which is different then the past summon). Thus the usefulness of the class only occurs after a shield roll?

Oh, yes you're right. Oops, sorry, the items stolen can be used on the player or the summon.

Monster Tamers use their knowledge of animals and gems to fight their battles.

Additional Health: +4

Additional Ether: +4 (+1 per level for classes without base ether)

Weapons: Wands, Whips, and Bows

Job trait: Animal Talk (See Ranger), Spell Casting (See Mage), Helpful Friend - The Monster Tamer may summon their creature to help them in everyday tasks.

Battle style: Monster Power - Monster Tamers use their chosen gem to summon and have the creature fight for them.

1. Shied/Past Summon: Monster Tamers summon the last Beast type enemy the Monster Tamer fought against, where its power is equal to its level and special becomes its shield roll. Additionally any additional types do not carry over and a roll of critical hit results in a strike of power times two.

2. Critical Hit/Greater Bolster: The Monster Tamer hits the enemy for damage equal to twice their WP added to their level. Optionally, the hero may choose to grant the Lucky effect to their companion, at the cost of ether every other round, if it has been summoned.

3. Hit/Bolster: The Tamer hits the enemy for damage equal to their their WP added to their level. Optionally, if the creature has been summoned, the hero may choose to grant the Hastened effect to their companion, at the cost of one ether every other round.

4. Pilfer/Lesser Bolster: The Monster Tamer steals an unlisted item from the target selected by a random roll: 1-3: Potion/Tonic, 4-5: Grand Potion/Grand Tonic, 6: Phoenix Essence. The hero may choose to grant the Encouraged effect to their companion, taking one ether every other round that the effect is in effect, if summoned, instead.

5. Damage: The Monster Tamer is struck by the opponent's attack.

6. Special Damage: The Monster Tamer is struck by the opponent’s special attack.

Important: (A max of two summons may fight per battle.)

[Endgame]

I think the Prophet's healing ability on shield is kind of over-the-top, and the sentinel n veni vidi vici is a bit overpowered (maybe halves all damage?). Other then that, they all look pretty top-notch.

[TheBoyWonder]

I love Paragon, especially the Veni Vidi Vici shield. I think Mime is a bit over powered.

What are the battle styles?

[Sandy]

I think the Prophet's healing ability on shield is kind of over-the-top, and the sentinel n veni vidi vici is a bit overpowered (maybe halves all damage?). Other then that, they all look pretty top-notch.

I know it's unlikely that anyone will ever have 200 health, but since the Shield-skill does not cost ether, it's pretty much just a guaranteed full heal to the party (if the prophet has chosen to heal). The best thing about the Shield-skill is that it's totally controlled by the player - if you chose to attack physically, the skill does that; if you wanted to cast a fire spell, the skill burns all the enemies; and if you chose to heal, you won't attack instead like the case is with some other classes.

As for Veni Vidi Vici, it's pretty much just "Frenzy", "Sentinel" and "Mug" (with a bit of a twist) rolled into one. I don't see how the protection is overpowered, since any Level 1 knight can do it, too.

What are the battle styles?

Just take a look at the rules, and you'll find the battle styles of all the basic classes.

[JimBee]

Well you know I'll have something to say. It's pretty hard to tell at this point what's overpowered and what's not, because we're so far away from anyone reaching level 50. But here it goes.

The Mime seems strangely under-powered to me. The ability to switch between basic classes is very cool and allows for some great strategy opportunities, but at the same time the Mime is only as powerful as a single basic class allows it to be. Not to say that they can't be powerful, in some cases better than advanced classes (Barbarians trade power for accuracy when advancing to Hunter, for example), but some of the abilities of the BCs might prove weak against the incredibly powerful enemies we'll be facing at level 50.

Still, a very neat and simple class that could very well prove me wrong.

We came, we conquered, we...? well it's been almost a week since I last played Rome: Total War, but I know that quote was important. Anyway, the Paragon seems good, too. I think Restoration is overpowered, though. It will negate the need for any outside-of-battle healing. Classes that can heal will have plenty of ether at that point, and Grand Potions cost a mere 10 gold. Rolls 1, 2, and 3 seem good and balanced. At first, I read the Truce roll as "the remainder of the battle", which would be completely pointless but for a round it could be very useful. I think it should be changed to "the next round", though, because heroes will be attacking the current round, and won't be able to choose to heal or use items.

I like how this class gives 5 additional base power, as well, but I'm sort of confused on how that would work. If someone rolled, say, a critical hit, the strength of the strike is equal to their WPx2 added to their level... then added to any remaining power? Or should it be WPx2+Power? In which case all of the class descriptions would need to be changed... the way I did it with Xander in Quest 29 was the former, to just tack on the additional 2 power that his artefacts gave him, but it might be more difficult if there is more base power, rather than on an artifact.

Now for the Prophet. To be frank, I think it is extremely under-powered. The shield roll is okay, but rolls 2 and 3 are nothing that the Necromancer can't do. Also, while the two new job traits are neat, they don't offer any in-battle advantage and are subjective to each QM. I can't think of any alternatives off the top of my head, but when you compare the job traits of the Paragon and Prophet, it is clear which one will make a more powerful character. This is also true for BCs, but they are not as consequential and they are more balanced (for example, while a Barbarian can restore part of their health automatically, they cannot use ranged attacks).

[TheBoyWonder]

Veni Vidi Vici means I came I saw I conquered.

[Sandy]

Thanks for your detailed feedback, JimBee! It's always appreciated.

The Mime seems strangely under-powered to me. The ability to switch between basic classes is very cool and allows for some great strategy opportunities, but at the same time the Mime is only as powerful as a single basic class allows it to be. Not to say that they can't be powerful, in some cases better than advanced classes (Barbarians trade power for accuracy when advancing to Hunter, for example), but some of the abilities of the BCs might prove weak against the incredibly powerful enemies we'll be facing at level 50.

Still, a very neat and simple class that could very well prove me wrong.

In the mime's case you have to remember that he has no limitations to what he can equip (with the exception of artefacts that are exclusive to a certain advanced or expert class), so to balance that his skills are nothing special. However, being able to change your entire play style from a tank to a healer to an elemental caster at whim is quite an advantage.

We came, we conquered, we...? well it's been almost a week since I last played Rome: Total War, but I know that quote was important. Anyway, the Paragon seems good, too. I think Restoration is overpowered, though. It will negate the need for any outside-of-battle healing. Classes that can heal will have plenty of ether at that point, and Grand Potions cost a mere 10 gold.

That's exactly why Restoration isn't an issue in my mind. Even with Natural Respite, the Paragon would recover 50 health after battle, and it would be rare that his health would've fallen so low in a victorious battle anyway, so why not simplify it and let him be fully healed after every battle? These are supposed to be the most powerful classes in this game, anyway.

Rolls 1, 2, and 3 seem good and balanced. At first, I read the Truce roll as "the remainder of the battle", which would be completely pointless but for a round it could be very useful. I think it should be changed to "the next round", though, because heroes will be attacking the current round, and won't be able to choose to heal or use items.

But that wouldn't be the same situation anymore. Truce gives the tactical option of leaving the Paragon last in the battle order, negating any Free Hits that the enemies might have coming for the party. In a battle against the odds that's a huge advantage, in my opinion, even if the chances of rolling the skill is 1 out of 6.

I like how this class gives 5 additional base power, as well, but I'm sort of confused on how that would work. If someone rolled, say, a critical hit, the strength of the strike is equal to their WPx2 added to their level... then added to any remaining power? Or should it be WPx2+Power? In which case all of the class descriptions would need to be changed... the way I did it with Xander in Quest 29 was the former, to just tack on the additional 2 power that his artefacts gave him, but it might be more difficult if there is more base power, rather than on an artifact.

There has been other items than artefacts that give heroes extra power permanently as well. The value is added to the base power, and treated as an addition to the hero's level (not WP). It would be smart for the player to notify it somehow in their character profile, so that QMs wouldn't be confused about the extra points in power.

Now for the Prophet. To be frank, I think it is extremely under-powered. The shield roll is okay, but rolls 2 and 3 are nothing that the Necromancer can't do. Also, while the two new job traits are neat, they don't offer any in-battle advantage and are subjective to each QM. I can't think of any alternatives off the top of my head, but when you compare the job traits of the Paragon and Prophet, it is clear which one will make a more powerful character. This is also true for BCs, but they are not as consequential and they are more balanced (for example, while a Barbarian can restore part of their health automatically, they cannot use ranged attacks).

I agree with everything you said. On the other hand the Prophet is a multitasker, but he should have something MORE going on, so that he wouldn't be just a Mime with half of the options. I guess I'm just out of creative juices, so I turn to you guys. How can we make the Prophet as desirable as a class as the Paragon?

The two classes are not competitor,s though, since they're both exclusive to different basic classes. I still feel they should be on equal ground in terms of usefulness, anyway.

Maybe the job trait "clairvoyance" could give the prophet foresight about the enemy stats before a battle, like that one artefact?

Help me out here!

[CMP]

These classes are very back-to-the-basics, but quite powerful nonetheless.

Maybe change the Prophet's rolls to effect all allies or enemies, and then make the Shield deal elemental damage and heal? It might be a bit too powerful, but like JimB said it's like a Necromancer minus the necro in its current state.

Or maybe just give them a job trait that allows them to heal allies without costing them a turn?

[Sandy]

I think I figured out what to do with the Prophet. I also made some heavy changes to Necromancer in the process to separate the two classes, but I think it worked out for the best of both.

Necromancer – These corrupt mages hold reign over death.

• Additional Health: +5

• Additional Ether: +5 (+1 per level for classes without base ether)

• Weapons: Necromancers use various imposing and magical weapons in battle, such as broomsticks, greatswords, maces, scythes, staves, wands and whips. They can also use gems and scrolls.

• Job Traits: Undead Sacrifice – The necromancer can destroy one of their undead allies in or out of battle to restore health to themselves or one of the party members equal to the undead’s level; Spellcasting (see Mage); Spiritism – The necromancer can communicate with the spirits of the deceased to gain information.

• Battle Style: Death-defying – Necromancers can raise an army of undead corpses.

1. SHIELD:

Raise The Undead

– The necromancer summons the corpses of all fallen enemies to join their side in battle. The undead keep the level of the original enemy, but they can only attack with darkness-elemental attacks with strength equal to their level once per round as commanded by the necromancer. Each undead attack costs 1 ether to the necromancer. The undead cannot be damaged and once raised they will follow the necromancer from battle to battle, but if the necromancer is knocked out or inflicted with an effect that prevents taking action, all the undead will disappear. The undead will automatically disappear at the end of each quest.

2. AMPLIFIED HIT/AMPLIFIED SPELL/AMPLIFIED REVIVAL: The necromancer attacks or spends 1 ether to cast an elemental spell with strength equal to their weapon power multiplied by the amount of undead raised and added to their level. Instead of attacking or casting a spell, the necromancer can spend 5 ethers to revive a fallen ally with health equal to the power of their amplified attack. (e.g. WP 15 x 3 undead raised + Level 30 = 75 (elemental) damage or restore 75 health to revived ally)

3. HIT/SPELL/REVIVAL: The necromancer attacks or spends 1 ether to cast an elemental spell with strength equal to their weapon power added to their level. Instead of attacking, the necromancer can spend 5 ethers to revive a fallen ally with health equal to the power of their attack. (e.g. WP 15 + Level 30 = 45 (elemental) damage or restore 45 health to revived ally)

4. MEDITATE/MEAGRE REVIVAL: The necromancer meditates to regain 1 ether. Instead of meditating, the necromancer can spend 5 ethers to revive a fallen ally with 1 health.

5. DAMAGE/NO REVIVAL: The necromancer is struck by the opponent’s attack. Optionally, any attempt of revival fails.

6. SPECIAL DAMAGE/NO REVIVAL: The necromancer is struck by the opponent’s special skill. Optionally, any attempt of revival fails.

Prophet (available to Clerics, Mages and Rangers) – These master miracleworkers act on behalf of their deity.

• Additional Health: +15

• Additional Ether: +15 (+1 per level for classes without base ether)

• Weapons: Prophets can handle any weapon suitable to Clerics, Mages and Rangers, including gems and scrolls.

• Job Traits: Healing (see Cleric); Spellcasting (see Mage); Clairvoyance – The prophet can receive vital information or guidance through visions from their deity; Glossolalia – The prophet can speak in any language and communicate with any sentient being

• Battle Style: Miraculous – Prophets perform true miracles in battle.

1. SHIELD:

Alea Iacta Est

– Empowered by their deity, the prophet either attacks or casts a chosen elemental spell on all enemies with strength equal to one to six times their weapon power added to their level, decided by an additional roll which is affected by the lucky-effect. (e.g. WP 25 x 1-6 + Level 50 = 75-200 (elemental) damage to all enemies) The deity then revives all fallen party members and restores the entire party to full health. This does not deplete ether.

2. 2. CRITICAL HIT/GREAT SPELL/HEAL MORE/MEDITATE TO NIRVANA: The prophet attacks or spends 1 ether to cast an elemental spell with strength equal to two times their weapon power added to their level. Instead of attacking, the prophet can spend 1 ether to restore health to themselves or one of their allies equal to the power of their critical attack. (e.g. WP 25 x 2 + Level 50 = 100 (elemental) damage or restore 100 health) Optionally, the prophet can meditate and reach nirvana, recovering full ether.

3. HIT/SPELL/HEAL/MEDITATE WELL: The prophet attacks or spends 1 ether to cast an elemental spell with strength equal to their weapon power added to their level. Instead of attacking, the prophet can spend 1 ether to restore health to themselves or one of their allies equal to the power of their attack. (e.g. WP 25 + Level 50 = 75 (elemental) damage or restore 75 health) Optionally, the prophet can meditate well to recover 10 ether.

4. AIM/AIMED SPELL/HEAL LESS/MEDITATE: The prophet attacks or spends 1 ether to cast an elemental spell with strength equal to their weapon power only. Instead of attacking, the prophet can spend 1 ether to restore health to themselves or one of their allies equal to the power of their attack. (e.g. WP 25 = 25 (elemental) damage or restore 25 health) Optionally, the prophet can meditate to recover 1 ether.

5. DAMAGE/NO HEALING/NO MEDITATION: The prophet is struck by the opponent’s attack. Optionally, any attempt of healing or meditating fails.

6. SPECIAL PROOF/NO HEALING/NO MEDITATION: The prophet is struck by the opponent’s special skill, but cannot be inflicted with any negative effects caused by it. Optionally, any attempt of healing or meditating fails.

As you see, the necromancer lost the ability to heal, but gained a new trait with which to sacrifice one of the undead allies to restore health, and a skill to revive at the cost of 5 ether. The prophet, on the other hand, can now attack, revive and heal all at the same time with "Alea Iacta Est", and he can now choose to meditate to regain ether.

How do you feel about these changes?

[CMP]

I really like these changes. :thumbup: Necromancer looks more like its own class rather than just a buffed Sage, while the Prophet's meditation makes it a much more appealing class for any ether user.

[Palathadric]

Must...become...prophet!

[Sandy]

Must...become...prophet!

40 levels to go, simple as that!

[Endgame]

Awesome, Sandy. Now I can be an undead necromancer who feeds undead to people to heal them.

[CMP]

Awesome, Sandy. Now I can be an undead necromancer who feeds undead to people to heal them.

You're telling me. If people are gonna whine about a heal in the middle of battle, they're going to have get themselves knocked out first.

[Waterbrick Down]

I really like the classes Sandy, especially now that you've made a greater distinction between the Prophet and the Necromancer. I've just realized I've been role-playing Skrall into a Paragon class, but he won't be able to become one. Ah well guess it's time to reroll the character sheet.

On a second note, if you have time, would you mind giving any thoughts on the Artificer class a few pages earlier at some point.

[Palathadric]

40 levels to go, simple as that!

How much can I buy levels for?

Also how can I effectively steal gold from other heroes?

[JimBee]

I like the changes, too. I think actually seeing these classes in action will be the ultimate factor in deciding if they need changing or not.