Is Knights Kingdom a continuation of the Castle theme?

[Mister Phes]

There seems to be an inconsistency here...

But what about Orient Expedition being part of the Adventurers theme?

yes it is

Orient Adventure carries a different name to Adventurers, and has a stronger storyline and more defined characters (like Knights Kingdom) than Adventurers but is still part of the Adventurers theme?

But...

i guess all sets pre KK are castle to me. i don't care about subthemes or anything, it's all the same to me. KK is different because it no longer carries the title "Castle".

Knights Kingdom has similiar differences (like the ones between Adventurers and Orient Expedition) to Castle yet because it carries a different title its different to Castle?

Double standards!!!!

[Norro]

Orient Expedition includes characters/story in a slightly heavier, but still traditional Lego way (give them a name and off they go, orient expedition adds a goal...) KK2 is based on a fully developed story (no real freedom of events or outcome...very Bionicle...)

God Bless,

Nathan

[Mister Phes]

Almost all characters in Orient Expedition had a name! Orient Expedition did have a fully developed story, didn't you see the online comic series on the LEGO website? Each set made a certain appearance at a certain point - it was completely structured within an 8 part story arc.

[Norro]

I know they had a name... so did many old pirate/castle sets. The issue is a rigid renactment of a story... I wasn't aware of the online comic, but the comics in the sets themselves seemed to be starters rather than a complete story...

God Bless,

Nathan

[snefroe]

There seems to be an inconsistency here...

But what about Orient Expedition being part of the Adventurers theme?

yes it is

Orient Adventure carries a different name to Adventurers, and has a stronger storyline and more defined characters (like Knights Kingdom) than Adventurers but is still part of the Adventurers theme?

But...

i guess all sets pre KK are castle to me. i don't care about subthemes or anything, it's all the same to me. KK is different because it no longer carries the title "Castle".

Knights Kingdom has similiar differences (like the ones between Adventurers and Orient Expedition) to Castle yet because it carries a different title its different to Castle?

Double standards!!!!

i'm so confused now *wacko* *wacko* *wacko* :P

[blueandwhite]

Almost all characters in Orient Expedition had a name! Orient Expedition did have a fully developed story, didn't you see the online comic series on the LEGO website? Each set made a certain appearance at a certain point - it was completely structured within an 8 part story arc.

Yes, however the characters in Orient Expedition are for the most part, the same characters we've seen in the earlier Dino Island and Adventure lines. And lets remember, the Adventure line is not in the true sense of the word, one LEGO's classic lines (Town, Space, Castle & Pirate). It was a line introduced when LEGO was experementing in an attempt to re-capture the interest of children. Ironically, the Adventure line is a precursor to most story-based themes including Bionicle. Johnny Thunder et. al. were the first truly developed LEGO characters. Essentially, Orient Expedition is a sequal/follow-up to the earlier Adventures line, incorporating many of the features and characters that made the earlier line so successful.

Thematically, Orient Expedition and the earlier Adventures line seem virtually identical. We have an adventurer (Johnny) and his friends who go off to exotic locals, while dealing with various villians. The character is clearly inspired by characters like Indiana Jones. KKII on the other hand has no tie-in with KKI, or any other castle line. The story stands separate from earlier lines, and the design is somewhat... different, owing more to current children's programing than to conventional stereotypes of the middle ages.

[SuvieD]

Phes you see it like I do in part if not entirely. A new name or lack of the old doesn't change what it is. Whether you like it or not doesn't change what it is.

I never like the Adventurers dino line but that doesn't mean it isn't Adventurers. People continually give KK2 a bad report. Yet, if it had traditional LEGO knights instead of the likes of Santis people would be praising it to the sky. I have seen them admit it. Bley is a whole other issue.

Ninja isn't castle, just like viking isn't pirates or castle and life on mars isn't space. Life on mars is an off shoot of town/space shuttle possibly futuristic, more likely fantasy.

I said myself that bionicle changed LEGO. It will calm as even bionicle is doing this year. Getting back to it's roots a little more and doing more of what made 2001 bionicle such a success. KK2 year one I thought was good. It had a great play value and a decent set design. Not great but good. KK2 year 2 improved minifigure amounts, accessories and set design. All a positive trend toward better sets. Vladek's dark fortress is the best castle made since 6090. Few will argue that. Now all facts point to KK2 year three to be even better (reguardless of the jumbo knights looks) than previous years. If someone makes a dumb move and messes it up so be it. I think they will not and LEGO castle will have it's best year in this decade possibly in the last two.

The world is changed. Even in the 70's & 80's children had there battles and many minifigures died daily. Today though the violence is there LEGO's storyline makes it completely non-lethal. Swords are for lightning attacks instead of head splitting and the worst damage a fireball will do is a bruise. Focus on conflict, actions and consequences are indeed in the story for KK2. A little guidance for young builders to learn the value of good choices and downplay the desire to kill or do harm to others. Complain about it if you want I think it is nice.

I still think what LEGO you like depends heavily on the age you were when you started playing and also the age you quit. The survey I conducted said volumes about people and what LEGO means to them. I have also seen many comments that point to this to a degree in everyone. I am a firm believer that your life is molded by the world around you and this may also play a huge part in what LEGO you like. This is why so many people started collecting LEGO after SW LEGO in 1999. Getting a castle would be seen as nerdy or uncool, but anyone can buy a SW set for "display" and still be cool.

Another huge ramble. I hope something in this makes sense. I tend to be overly wordy. Drives most people nutso. *wacko*

[blueandwhite]

I never like the Adventurers dino line but that doesn't mean it isn't Adventurers.  People continually give KK2 a bad report.  Yet, if it had traditional LEGO knights instead of the likes of Santis people would be praising it to the sky.  I have seen them admit it.  Bley is a whole other issue.

Your overlooking the obvious differences between KKII and earlier castle lines. Previous lines share a number of asthetic elements that LEGO purposely dropped in order to gain a new audience. Conventional Knights with iron armour, were replaced by a new set of heroes, inspired by cartoon heroes. Primary colours are used to distinguish our heroes, and each character is given an exciting Bionicle-like mask (futuristic helmet if you will). This is a clear change in style. SuvieD, you seem to dismiss these not-to-subtle differences.

Ninja isn't castle, just like viking isn't pirates or castle and life on mars isn't space.  Life on mars is an off shoot of town/space shuttle possibly futuristic, more likely fantasy

See, this doesn't make alot of sense to me. You've told me that KKII is castle because it includes Knights and castles, yet Life on Mars isn't space? Doesn't Life on Mars include spaceships, robots and astronauts? Why is the inclusion of a castle enough to make KKII a continuation of classic-castle, when spaceships and astronauts aren't enough to make Life on Mars a continuation of classic-space. Isn't KKII more like science-fantasy than a traditional castle theme? It seems as if your attempting to force others to embrace KKII by including it with a now-defunct line of products which is more popular with many AFOLS.

I do agree that Ninja probably isn't castle though(although, it too includes castles), and the Viking line certainly its own entity.

Now all facts point to KK2 year three to be even better (reguardless of the jumbo knights looks) than previous years.  If someone makes a dumb move and messes it up so be it.  I think they will not and LEGO castle will have it's best year in this decade possibly in the last two.

What facts?

I think your jumping the gun here. We haven't seen any sets from which we can make any sort of conclusion. Just because year 2 was better than year 1, doesn't mean that year 3 will follow this trend. LEGO always has its ups and downs when it comes to set design. There is nothing to say that this won't be the worst year yet. The only thing we've seen thus far is the maxi-figs. Hardly enough to draw any sort of conclusion.

Another huge ramble.  I hope something in this makes sense.  I tend to be overly wordy.  Drives most people nutso. *wacko*

Don't worry about it. I actually enjoy hearing what you have to say.

[Mister Phes]

I know they had a name... so did many old pirate/castle sets.

The issue is a rigid renactment of a story... I wasn't aware of the online comic, but the comics in the sets themselves seemed to be starters rather than a complete story...

Orient Expedition is far more story driven and chracter orientated than Pirates or Castle sets. Mini-figures from each Orient Expedition set had a name, wheras with Pirates (and I assume older Castle too) only the leader of each sub-theme was named. Unless of course you bought the Comic and Ladybird Book series but that's like the Extended Universe of Pirates and was optional. It wasn't part of the marketing for pirates.

[Mister Phes]

Yes, however the characters in Orient Expedition are for the most part, the same characters we've seen in the earlier Dino Island and Adventure lines.  And lets remember, the Adventure line is not in the true sense of the word, one LEGO's classic lines (Town, Space, Castle & Pirate).  It was a line introduced when LEGO was experementing in an attempt to re-capture the interest of children.  Ironically, the Adventure line is a precursor to most story-based themes including Bionicle.  Johnny Thunder et. al. were the first truly developed LEGO characters. 

Only Johnny Thunder, Dr Kilroy and Sinister Sam are the only characters that carry over from the original Adventurers, the rest were created just for Orient Expedition. Now which characters in Fright Knights carry over from earlier Castle sub-themes? None whatosever!

Essentially, Orient Expedition is a sequal/follow-up to the earlier Adventures line, incorporating many of the features and characters that made the earlier line so successful.

Just like Knights Kingdom II is the sequel/follow up to Knights Kingdom I which is the sequel/follow up to the original Castle theme. :D

Thematically, Orient Expedition and the earlier Adventures line seem virtually identical.  We have an adventurer (Johnny) and his friends who go off to exotic locals, while dealing with various villians.  The character is clearly inspired by characters like Indiana Jones. 

Are you kidding? Themematically they are as different as Knights Kingdom is Castle. We Knights fighting against an evil leader who wants to take over, only this time LEGO has bothered to name more characters.

KKII on the other hand has no tie-in with KKI, or any other castle line.  The story stands separate from earlier lines, and the design is somewhat... different, owing more to current children's programing than to conventional stereotypes of the middle ages.

The Adventurers tie-in is minimal and was probably only used because LEGO would have needed to create a bunch of new characters but why bother when they already have a coulpe of established characters in an existing theme? The designs of the sets are also has a distinctness which is different from Adventurers.

[Mister Phes]

Phes you see it like I do in part if not entirely.  A new name or lack of the old doesn't change what it is.  Whether you like it or not doesn't change what it is.

Yes I think I do. But it seems the majority understand the message better the way you tell it.

I never like the Adventurers dino line but that doesn't mean it isn't Adventurers.  People continually give KK2 a bad report.  Yet, if it had traditional LEGO knights instead of the likes of Santis people would be praising it to the sky.  I have seen them admit it.  Bley is a whole other issue.

I'm using Adventurers Vs Orient Expedition as an example. Apparently Orient Expedition is a sub-theme of Adventurers because it has 3 charcters from the previous Adventurers theme. But it doesn't appear that LEGO is marketting Orient Expedition as a continuation of the Adventurers theme, its got a seperate storyline completely and the set design varies slightly too. Yet unlike Knights Kingdom its still considered part of the Adventurers theme.

That seems like double standards to me, and I theorised that the its acceptable to include Orient Expedition as part of the Adventurers theme because the Orient Expedition was at least decent. If the sets were horrible then everyone would be saying Orient Expedition was a completely different theme to Adventurers.

Ninja isn't castle, just like viking isn't pirates or castle and life on mars isn't space.  Life on mars is an off shoot of town/space shuttle possibly futuristic, more likely fantasy.

It wouldn't make sense that Ninja was a sub-theme of Castle! Its more like a sub-theme of Orient Expedition :P (no I'm not serious)

[blueandwhite]

I'm using Adventurers Vs Orient Expedition as an example.  Apparently Orient Expedition is a sub-theme of Adventurers because it has 3 charcters from the previous Adventurers theme.  But it doesn't appear that LEGO is marketting Orient Expedition as a continuation of the Adventurers theme, its got a seperate storyline completely and the set design varies slightly too.  Yet unlike Knights Kingdom its still  considered part of the Adventurers theme. 

That seems like double standards to me, and I theorised that the its acceptable to include Orient Expedition as part of the Adventurers theme because the Orient Expedition was at least decent.  If the sets were horrible then everyone would be saying Orient Expedition was a completely different theme to Adventurers.

I think your intentionally ignoring some of the reasons the Adventures and Orient Expedition lines may be considered to be connected lines. Thematically, both lines are very similar. In fact, other than the time-gap between Adventures and Orient Expedition, the two lines are virtually the same. Our archeologist hero travels to various exotic locals (Egypt, South America, Dino Island, and the Orient) to fight villiany, search tombs and find treasure.

In terms of design, the adventures line is quite consistant, presenting our archeologist hero as an adventurer during the 1930s. Sets generally include a vintage vehicle or exotic local (or both). Heck, the line has four characters that appear in both the Adventures and Orient Expedition lines (Pippen, Sam, Johnny and Kilroy). The design asthetic hasn't really changed from year to year (Orient Expedition is no exception, despite the time-gap). Each year, Johnny goes off on another adventure in a new and exotic place. It really is that simple.

Still, you dismiss the fact that both lines star Johnny Thunder and friends. You also reject the other obvious thematic similarities between the two lines, including obvious influences from feature films like Indiana Jones. I've already stated them earlier in this thread, so I doubt restating them here will change your mind. Still, you haven't really presented anything that truly differentiates these two lines thematically.

I have stated why, in my opinion, KKII doesn't fit with earlier castle lines. I have stated (clearly I hope) my reasons for believing that KKII is not a continuation of classic-castle. Perhaps you could tell me why I should treat Orient Expedition as being different from the earlier Adventures line.

Finally, this doesn't have anything to do with the sets being horrible. The Fright Knights line is easily the worst castle line of all time in my opinion. It marks the decline and demise of an era. Most of the KKII sets are far superior to the disaster that was Fright Knights. Still, I include Fright Knights as a part of the castle line. I don't like it, but I accept it. This isn't about trying to exclude sets from a line because fans don't like them.

I think this is a subject we will just have to 'agree to disagree' on.

Later

[Mister Phes]

Obviously its subjective! I don't consider Knights Kingdom to be different enough to Castle to be considered as a entire different theme regardless of whether it has any characters carried over from the original Castle theme. It has no more character carry over or design similarties than Fright Knights has to the earlier Castle sets. Yes it does have a more character and storyline driven focus, but that's just a modern marketing strategy, not an entirely new theme.

[Norro]

regardless of whether it has any characters carried over from the original Castle theme.

From my stand point at least, you are mixing two arguments here (slightly). The continuity of the castle line was not in named characters (like pirates or adventurers) but in a world that, despite stylistic ebbs and flows each line could interrelate ie set a 'fright knight' next to a royal knight, or black knight and you say, 'hey different team but could be the same world'. Chuck in a jelly bean and you say 'nope, not the same world'. You also had an absence of rigid story upto and (barely) including KK1. KK2 snapped and became 'playsets' for a set of mega knights who clearly inhabit their own very much non-system world. That is the difference for me.

Also I would like to add it isn't about set quality, FK is the worst thing Lego produced for many years, KK2 is better for building. Yet I'll still draw the line to include FK and not KK2..

I also hold it is not neccessarily what you grew up on... Take a poll on cc (which has a lot of younger users) and you'll still get the usual suspects toping the list, not KK2 anyway ;)

God Bless,

Nathan

[Norro]

I would also like to add to the adventurers debate that some of the catalogues trailed Orient Expedition as 'The adventures of Johnny Thunder continue...' but even without this, the line is stylistically similiar and inhabits the same 'world' as the original line, to me that makes up a theme...

God Bless,

Nathan

[Mister Phes]

The continuity of the castle line was not in named characters (like pirates or adventurers)

What do you mean by continuity of characters like pirates? After 1994 there were no more named characters.

[Norro]

The continuity of the castle line was not in named characters (like pirates or adventurers)

What do you mean by continuity of characters like pirates? After 1994 there were no more named characters.

Red Beard was still there, but more importantly by my way of reckoning it was still clearly the same 'world'...

God Bless,

Nathan

[Mister Phes]

Well how do you have different worlds if its set in the Caribbean? Isn't Knights Kingdom just another Kingdom in a different part of the same land the older castle sets, were set in?

[blueandwhite]

Well how do you have different worlds if its set in the Caribbean? Isn't Knights Kingdom just another Kingdom in a different part of the same land the older castle sets, were set in?

Again, I think your ignoring the obvious changes between KKII and earlier castle themes. The fact is, earlier themes were defined by traditional medieval cliches. The character designs were conventional stereotypes popularized in films such as Errol Flynn's Adventures of Robin Hood, or the Elizabeth Taylor version of Ivanhoe. These cliches can be also seen in books like the Chronicles of Narnia, and classic Warner Brothers Cartoons. Needless to say, this style is markedly different from the Space Knight theme we now have. The simple inclusion of Knights and castles does not mean that thematically, KKII and the earlier lines are connected. The classic-castle asthetic has long since been abandoned.

Fright Knights (how I hate them) still fit in with the Royal Knights, BFs and Lion Knights. Their costuming is not that unlike the costumes from earlier years. Witches, Wizards and Dragons as seen in earlier lines are all over-used cliches borrowed from classic film. KKII has a distinctly Japanese flavour. The characters are modern, wearing brightly coloured space suits and breast plates. They ride mechanical scorpions, shoot flourecent sawblades, carry 'powerswords' and look by-and-large like the Power Rangers. To ignore these changes is absurd. These characters (allthough interesting) don't fit in with the other theme, whether people like it or not. Its like a stormtrooper appearing in Lord of the Rings.

Later.

[SuvieD]

I also hold it is not neccessarily what you grew up on... Take a poll on cc (which has a lot of younger users) and you'll still get the usual suspects toping the list, not KK2 anyway ;)

Younger users that are in awe from the impressive MOCs, huge collections, inherent knowledge of older builders, and the sometime fanatical castle people found their. They have never owned one of the sets that wasn't a legend. Point is they are trying to be cool by liking what the "popular" people like. I did the same at 13-17 and so do many of the younger people of BZP, CC, FBTB, and even some here at Eurobricks. Bad arguement for the point trying to be made. Peer pressure will change the opinion of every one of us but it is even more powerful for teens. Why do you think that advertisers focus so heavily on that age group instead of 21+? I could further into this but I think the point is made.

I have not forgotten what makes KK2 different that previous series. In 1978 the first catle had no <insert that tiresome argument> wall parts. In 1984 that changed. Not only that but it would be far to costly and thus total fantasy to think that a man in the period between 1000-1400 could have had bright blue or red colored pants. It simply was not possible with the dyes they had. Do you say anything about this? It is like they went into the future on learned some special magic to make such clothing.

Then in time new series came out. Dragons with laughable wing spans that we are shown in every poster that it could fly and that only the new wizard figure, which resembles Gandalf more than Merlin, could control (sounds like a storyline to me, visual instead of with word but they said a little about it on each poster and we know that a picture is worth a thousand words). These "knights" had huge unrealistic pikes they could hold with one hand and wield with no difficulty a large shield. Were these jokers banned from LEGO castle? I think not. I won't even go into the series that followed these before KK1. Seriously, does any not see that the ghosts, dragons, colorful knights, outlandish weapons, fantasy/completely unrealistic, other-worldly based sets and parts and even storylines were around before KK?

KK was actually the first to put down the fantasy. It featured named characters for the first time in castle and had a very loose storyline that was basically, Leo defends his kingdom from Cedric. More realistic armor on figures, seige that was somewhat practical and better set designs (the joust was great) than the previous disaster FK. This was only the start though. Storylines for children are a good stepping stone to more creativity. LEGO realised this more so after the Bionicle explosion. Thus it wasn't until 2004 that KK2 was released showing that storyline sells. That is why storyline is more developed than in the past. Not that it didn't exist, just that it was more vague.

Now, more solidly to the point of what gets KK2 the seal of crap design by most adult collectors, the swords, armor, and colors. Firstly the sword. It will never work well as an actual blade. Understand though that no LEGO made weapon is anywhere near realism. Rounded blades and spear heads that in real life would weigh 20+ lbs. would never work. No one complains when they see a brown spear, yet what idiot would go into battle or stand guard at a post with a wooden spear? The swords are magically made to shoot lightning instead of being used to stab, slice and crush, fantasy yes but so is majesto's wand. Secondly, the armor. No one dislikes that LEGO is making more "euro" armor. But these new oversized (as if everything in minifgi scale isn't over sized) visors are just to much, right? ;) The color is the biggest factor for most people. Yes, they have colors like the power rangers and any number of shows, cartoons, movies, or imaginations that the power rangers stole from. I used to have my figures with different colors have special powers based on the fact that this guy with a zipper jacket was blue and another white. Long before Power ranges ever made it on the air. LEGO saw the idea of different colors to help children identify both with the difference and because many children have a favorite color, thus a favorite knight based solely on color. It sells and that's what counts. The color is specifically choosen based on the fact that they live in different realms. Which to me makes sense. The fact that the armor is near impervious also give creedance to the fact that they are not made of normal metal and thus not standard metallic colors. Fantasy I know but I have established that it is not the first time. Merely, an expanded effort.

So you see, castle LEGO has indeed been progressing toward it's current state. Many of the sets have been slowly building on the imagination and fantasy aspect in the realm of castles and knights even back to the yellow castle. So times out of neccessity in the limitation of the LEGO system/legal & safety reasons. More recently and in the last 20 years even it has been moving toward more and more fantasy. KK2 is indeed LEGO castle.

I hope that they do an Camelot series after KK2 or perhaps some of the German sagas. I hope to one day have a swan knight army. I don't particularly like the whole indestructable knights with lightning swords myself but until something better comes along, I will enjoy what I can from it. The sets are getting better and the colors are becoming better as well. KK3 I predict will be very good.

People will debate the LoM series more than castle as it is a more foggy theme. The figures are Mars explorers and the aliens found their. Only the early space sets were based on exploration. Everything after BT1 and SP1 has much more of a conflict flavor. So it does fit in with space. I personally feel it is more like a somewhat distant future version of the town space series. Which would obviously be the stepping stone into space itself. So, really it is a theme unto itself. It is clear that they don't have ships capabale of long distantance space travel but they are more advanced than the town space shuttles. If LEGO makes a Roman or Greek theme I will not think of this as castle or a sub theme. It is a different era all together. If they made an imperialism theme I would however lump it together with pirate as the period is the same, as well as, the location as imperialism was worldwide.

[Sting]

No one denies how unrealistic LEgo castle was and still is. This is not the debate. We all know that Legos things are never been realistic. The Castles we see are merely guardposts... none of them are big enough to be true castles! But due to cost Lego couldn't make a realistic sized castle and have it sell for a good price! (well... for parents to buy for kids at least).

Realism in the Castle Theme is not the issue in this thread. If it was than KK2 loses just as bad as all of the other themes. The issue is is whether KK2 should be considered part of the Castle Theme.

[Mister Phes]

Again, I think your ignoring the obvious changes between KKII and earlier castle themes. The fact is, earlier themes were defined by traditional medieval cliches. The character designs were conventional stereotypes popularized in films such as Errol Flynn's Adventures of Robin Hood, or the Elizabeth Taylor version of Ivanhoe. These cliches can be also seen in books like the Chronicles of Narnia, and classic Warner Brothers Cartoons. Needless to say, this style is markedly different from the Space Knight theme we now have. The simple inclusion of Knights and castles does not mean that thematically, KKII and the earlier lines are connected. The classic-castle asthetic has long since been abandoned.

I'm not ignoring the obvious changes, I'm just aware that LEGO has already flogged the conventional stereotypes and traditional medieval cliches to death in earlier in the Castle theme. LEGO couldn't possibly repeat these because as a company it must constantly innovate and create new styles for its products. LEGO had to find a new angle to take the Castle theme and Knights Kingdom was that angle it found. Its contemporary Castle!

Like I said, its the linear progress. The good folk at LEGO said "We've done all the traditional stuff, lets look to contemporary trends and introduce those into castle. Sure its going to be different to whats happened in past castle sub-themes but its an avenue we haven't yet explored"

Remember: The only thing constant is change.

[Sting]

Remember: The only thing constant is change.

And people who hate change. LoL.

There are alot more things Lego could explore with the castle theme... I just hope they will do it soon! If

There are many medieval helmet designs, some incredibly stereotypical that lego still hasn't made...

KK3 I predict will be very good.

Tell me why!!! If it is because you base it on the Maxifigs than you may be right(if we get some cool armor back(I have enough of the old non He-Man swords)... but I have little hope in the buildings themselves.

One thing you can't deny SuvieD... why are the new castles so limited in figures? KK1's Castle had I think 4 defenders and a queen... and I think 2 attackers. How many does Vladeks big rocky fortress have?

I just hope there is more GOOD Minfigures... and lets pray not everything is in freekin' Black!

[blueandwhite]

This has certainly been an interesting discussion. As I stated to mister_phes, this is a subject we will just have to 'agree to disagree' on.

Still, I suppose its only reasonable to touch on a few of your observations.

I have not forgotten what makes KK2 different that previous series.  In 1978 the first catle had no <insert that tiresome argument> wall parts.  In 1984 that changed.  Not only that but it would be far to costly and thus total fantasy to think that a man in the period between 1000-1400 could have had bright blue or red colored pants.  It simply was not possible with the dyes they had.  Do you say anything about this?  It is like they went into the future on learned some special magic to make such clothing.

Nobody is suggesting that LEGO castles between 1978 and 1997 are even remotely realistic. In fact, you have already brought this up a few pages back. No LEGO set will ever be accused of that. LEGO castle has never portrayed the middle ages accurately, just as Pirates and Ninja do not portray their respective periods properly. I don't think that anyone expects 'realism' from their LEGO sets.

As to your remark concerning dyes. Yes, they were expensive. But to say that brightly coloured dyes were not available is untrue. Nobles, merchants and other persons of wealth certainly wore vibrant colours as evidenced by many illuminated manuscripts coming out of the 13th and 14th centuries. Rich reds, greens and blues were not uncommon.

Then in time new series came out.  Dragons with laughable wing spans that we are shown in every poster that it could fly and that only the new wizard figure, which resembles Gandalf more than Merlin, could control (sounds like a storyline to me, visual instead of with word but they said a little about it on each poster and we know that a picture is worth a thousand words).

The inclusion of a Wizard character constitutes a storyline? Perhaps you could elaborate on this a bit. I don't remember a clear storyline being given to the DM line. In fact, you yourself state that Bionicle was responsible for the indroduction of a story to the world of KK. Either way, the fact remains that this line evolved from the same cliches as its predecessors. Like earlier castle sets, this set borrows from a portrayal of the middle ages popularized between the 1930s and 1950s. Certainly the fantasy aspect was new, however the design asthetic remained fairly consistant. A DM Knight doesn't look out of place when standing next to a BF, a Lion Knight or even a Fright Knight. It is an asthetic we see frequently in Warner Brothers cartoons, and classic film.

The KKII line simply lacks any asthetic connection with its predecessors (yes, even KKI).

These "knights" had huge unrealistic pikes they could hold with one hand and wield with no difficulty a large shield.  Were these jokers banned from LEGO castle?  I think not.  I won't even go into the series that followed these before KK1.  Seriously, does any not see that the ghosts, dragons, colorful knights, outlandish weapons, fantasy/completely unrealistic, other-worldly based sets and parts and even storylines were around before KK?

Again, nobody said that earlier castle lines were 'realistic'. I'm not sure why your harping on this one point, as it has nothing to do with the counter-argument. Instead of addressing some of the arguments others have made, you continue to go on about how unrealistic the classic line was. Nobody was ever disputing that!

KK was actually the first to put down the fantasy.  It featured named characters for the first time in castle and had a very loose storyline that was basically, Leo defends his kingdom from Cedric.  More realistic armor on figures, seige that was somewhat practical and better set designs (the joust was great) than the previous disaster FK.  This was only the start though.  Storylines for children are a good stepping stone to more creativity.  LEGO realised this more so after the Bionicle explosion. Thus it wasn't until 2004 that KK2 was released showing that storyline sells.  That is why storyline is more developed than in the past.  Not that it didn't exist, just that it was more vague.

KK didn't play down the fantasy elements any more than the BFs, Forestmen, Black Knights, Lion Knights etc. In fact, it continued with many popularized cliches. We are given a female knight, who is an obvious play on Joan of Arc. The colours aren't really that different from the FK, BF, or Wolfpack lines. The torso-prints were definitely nice, but we've had alot of great torso prints in the past. As for storylines. Are children too slow to make up their own? Sure, the comics have proved popular, but to say that they foster creativity is downright silly. A child who makes his or her own stories, characters and scenarios is being more creative than a child who needs a comic to give his or her characters an identity.

Yes, LEGO has found that stories sell product in today's marketplace. That isn't to say that this was always the case. In the past, storylines were non-existent, and comics weren't printed in the back of instructions. Heck, the characters' names weren't even consistent. In the US, Robinhood's name was never mentioned. Merlin's name in North America is Majisto. Simply put, there was no readily available storyline for kids to follow. There was simply a promotional paragraph in each year's catolog.

Now, more solidly to the point of what gets KK2 the seal of crap design by most adult collectors, the swords, armor, and colors.

What irritates many adultcollectors (including myself) is that this NEW asthetic is so far removed from the Castle line, it becomes difficult or impossible to incorporate the KKII knights in with their previous figures. The KKII knights are too-far removed from the underlying asthetic that defined much of the Castle theme for almost twenty years. Hard, geometric shapes, and unsightly coloured armour make this line extremely different. The helmets are characterized by the same sharp lines that define the Bionicle line. Essentially, LEGO has abandoned one visual scheme for another one that is so uncompromisingly different, it is almost futile to directly link this line with the castle lines of yesteryear. It is not an evolution of castle. It is a revolution. It is a line for kids who didn't like the Castle asthetic.

This line is thuroughly modern. It draws visually from the 90s rather than the 40s or 50s. Commercially, this makes perfect sense, and KKII (from what I understand) has been a huge success. That being said, it is a new toyline. It is its own species. To call it a continuation of the Castle line just doesn't make sense.

Firstly the sword.  It will never work well as an actual blade.  Understand though that no LEGO made weapon is anywhere near realism.  Rounded blades and spear heads that in real life would weigh 20+ lbs. would never work.  No one complains when they see a brown spear, yet what idiot would go into battle or stand guard at a post with a wooden spear?

Again this isn't about realism.

The color is the biggest factor for most people.  Yes, they have colors like the power rangers and any number of shows, cartoons, movies, or imaginations that the power rangers stole from.  I used to have my figures with different colors have special powers based on the fact that this guy with a zipper jacket was blue and another white.  Long before Power ranges ever made it on the air.

Yes, for many people the colour is a huge issue. It certainly isn't the only issue. Futuristic swords, space helmets and coloured armour simply don't fit with the castle asthetic. This line may not be inspired directly by the Power Rangers, but are definitely several similarities. These little guys look like they would be quite comfortable on a spaceship. Heck, classic space had red, black, blue, white and yellow space-men. Perhaps its time to consider whether KKII is a continuation of classic-space.

The color is specifically choosen based on the fact that they live in different realms.  Which to me makes sense.  The fact that the armor is near impervious also give creedance to the fact that they are not made of normal metal and thus not standard metallic colors.  Fantasy I know but I have established that it is not the first time.  Merely, an expanded effort.

From the beginning, this has never been a fantasy vs. reality issue! It is simply a question of design. This line was designed to replace a line that LEGO felt it could no longer promote in today's market. When a company decides to reinvent a line. To start new, and take it in an entirely different direction, it cannot reasonably be called a continuation of the now defunct line. KKII exists because the original castle line doesn't sit well with today's kids!!

People will debate the LoM series more than castle as it is a more foggy theme.  The figures are Mars explorers and the aliens found their.  Only the early space sets were based on exploration.  Everything after BT1 and SP1 has much more of a conflict flavor.  So it does fit in with space.  I personally feel it is more like a somewhat distant future version of the town space series.  Which would obviously be the stepping stone into space itself.  So, really it is a theme unto itself.

You say that people will debate the Space/LoM because LoM is a foggy theme, yet thus far, the vote has been split pretty evenly on the Castle/KKII discussion. Your reasons for separating LoM from Space seem no more valid to me than the reasons others have expressed for distinguishing between the now-defunct Castle line and the KKII line. To say that this debate is far more one-sided than the LoM debate merely suggests that you have no credence to the opinions of fans like myself who disagree with you.

If LEGO makes a Roman or Greek theme I will not think of this as castle or a sub theme.  It is a different era all together.  If they made an imperialism theme I would however lump it together with pirate as the period is the same, as well as, the location as imperialism was worldwide.

And if they make a new Pirate theme with flourescent swords, bionicle-like headgear and sawblade launchers in the place of cannons, I won't consider that to be a continuation of the Pirate line.

For the record, I don't consider the Ninja, Viking or Castle themes to be related, just like I don't feel that Life on Mars fits in with classic space. Each of these lines is asthetically and thematically unique. For the same reasons, I don't believe that KKII is a continuation of the previous Castle theme. I'm not going to call KKII Castle, if I'm told that Life on Mars isn't space.

Later.

[Mister Phes]

Remember: The only thing constant is change.

And people who hate change. LoL.

There are alot more things Lego could explore with the castle theme... I just hope they will do it soon! If

There are many medieval helmet designs, some incredibly stereotypical that lego still hasn't made...

Indeed there are probably infinite more traditional possiblities LEGO could explore for future Castle sets, however they chose to take the theme in a contemporary direction with drivel seen in other children's toys and cartoons.

Its all about marketing the product to appeal to the kiddies of today, so if that means knights that look like Mighty Morphin Power Rangers and this rounded power swords.