IS SET 6987 REALLY A BLACKTRON SET?

[Operacion Saturno]

Sorry to drop this bomb to all Blacktron fans of this group, but you have to read this.

The Blacktron space subtheme has been around for practically 37 years and has become one of the most popular space themes ever created. 

Blacktron is more than just Black/Yellow/Trans-yellow color sets with triangular logos everywhere. The theme was innovating and stablished a particular style differentiating their sets from the ones in other space themes with new features and gimmicks.

And this is the point of this post. One of the most iconic Blacktron sets is their largest one. The Message Intercept Base. The base is without a doubt one of the best space sets ever released by Lego Group. However, does the base follow the special features of the subtheme? Does the base include the gimmicks found in the smaller releases?

I wrote an extended explanation of this posture on my group. I have nothing against this magnificent set; in fact, I still have mine stored in a large Ziplock bag. I just wanted to share this revelation with all.

Blacktron of my youth

 

 

[Murdoch17]

It's under the Blacktron theme, and has the logo / colorscheme, thus it's a Blacktron set. Gimmicks mean nothing to LEGO designers, they are just to get kids to buy it / them all. Case closed! 

Edit: Why is the topic title shouting at me @Operacion Saturno? All caps means shouting, after all.

Edited May 17 by Murdoch17

[Operacion Saturno]

8 minutes ago, Murdoch17 said:

It's under the Blacktron theme, and has the logo / colorscheme, thus it's a Blacktron set. Gimmicks mean nothing to LEGO designers, they are just to get kids to buy it / them all. Case closed! 

Edit: Why is the topic title shouting at me @Operacion Saturno? All caps means shouting, after all.

Sorry to burst your little bubble, but Lego themes are more complicated than that. 

According to your statement, If I take a 2x4 black plate, stick on top a 2x3 yellow plate and then I top it with a tile with the Blacktron logo on it, it will be a BT set if I sit a figure on that.

I have nothing against Blacktron, I’m just sharing a revelation with all.

[Mandalorianknight]

3 hours ago, Operacion Saturno said:

Sorry to burst your little bubble, but Lego themes are more complicated than that. 

According to your statement, If I take a 2x4 black plate, stick on top a 2x3 yellow plate and then I top it with a tile with the Blacktron logo on it, it will be a BT set if I sit a figure on that.

I have nothing against Blacktron, I’m just sharing a revelation with all.

 @Murdoch17 is right- it's part of the blacktron theme, it's got the blacktron logo and figures... it's a blacktron set. In your hypothetical scenario, if lego released what you described, yes, it would be a blacktron set.

[icm]

4 hours ago, Operacion Saturno said:

I have nothing against Blacktron, I’m just sharing a revelation with all.

I believe your revelation that 6987 is not really a Blacktron set because it doesn't have all the same gimmicks as the other Blacktron sets would be known as a "showerthought" on Reddit.

Edit - reading the rules on that sub, it doesn't count.

Edited May 17 by icm

[Operacion Saturno]

1 hour ago, Mandalorianknight said:

 @Murdoch17 is right- it's part of the blacktron theme, it's got the blacktron logo and figures... it's a blacktron set. In your hypothetical scenario, if lego released what you described, yes, it would be a blacktron set.

When we create MOCs, we AFOLs usually focus on looks like colors and logos (as you describe) Lego group they first focus on fuctionality. The M.I.B. and Metor Monitor doesn't follows the functions of the rest of the space subtheme. We been tricked.
Good luck trying attach the spaceship included on the Message Intercept Base to the Blacktron Renegade

[Black Falcon]

I honestly don´t understand what the point is if you want to have a discussion about it, to not even write your arguments here. I mean if it would be an other persons text, a link is one thing, but as it is your own, there wouldn´t have been an issue to just post your text here.

But as the others stated it is clearly a Blacktron Set - you have the figs and colours and the set also fits well in the storytelling of the theme. 

If some gimmicks are the only reason you think it is not blacktron, then I am afraid that is hardly any proof - it isn´t like they have added different features in other themes either.

[SpacePolice89]

I would definitely say that this is a true Blacktron 1 set. Even if most Blacktron 1 sets have common design features like modularity there are always exceptions. Not all M-Tron sets have magnets, not all SP 1 sets have jail cells etc. 

[Operacion Saturno]

53 minutes ago, Black Falcon said:

I honestly don´t understand what the point is if you want to have a discussion about it, to not even write your arguments here. I mean if it would be an other persons text, a link is one thing, but as it is your own, there wouldn´t have been an issue to just post your text here.

But as the others stated it is clearly a Blacktron Set - you have the figs and colours and the set also fits well in the storytelling of the theme. 

If some gimmicks are the only reason you think it is not blacktron, then I am afraid that is hardly any proof - it isn´t like they have added different features in other themes either.

 

33 minutes ago, SpacePolice89 said:

I would definitely say that this is a true Blacktron 1 set. Even if most Blacktron 1 sets have common design features like modularity there are always exceptions. Not all M-Tron sets have magnets, not all SP 1 sets have jail cells etc. 

 

2 hours ago, icm said:

I believe your revelation that 6987 is not really a Blacktron set because it doesn't have all the same gimmicks as the other Blacktron sets would be known as a "showerthought" on Reddit.

Edit - reading the rules on that sub, it doesn't count.

From Bijarne Panduro Tveskov himself:  "it’s an interesting theory, and I can follow the arguments. However, it was always Blacktron.. "

Link from panduro.

So I was wrong. 

 

[GeoBrick]

1 hour ago, Operacion Saturno said:

So I was wrong. 

I'm so glad to see you typed that. 

I mean, its the flagship set of Blacktron. No bigger set was released until this year.

[danth]

I would not expect them to incorporate vehicular modularity into a base.

I think the modularity gimmick wasn't a Blacktron thing, it was a Space Vehicle thing. Alien Moon Stalker had it, Solar Power Transport had it, Star Defender 200 had it. It was in all themes, but not really utilized in the bases.

[Operacion Saturno]

2 hours ago, danth said:

I would not expect them to incorporate vehicular modularity into a base.

I think the modularity gimmick wasn't a Blacktron thing, it was a Space Vehicle thing. Alien Moon Stalker had it, Solar Power Transport had it, Star Defender 200 had it. It was in all themes, but not really utilized in the bases.

You are late to the discussion. It's already solved.

 

[Murdoch17]

1 hour ago, Operacion Saturno said:

You are late to the discussion. It's already solved.

 

I don't understand the point of your comment. The question you asked was technically answered before you posted created this thread... it's been a fact since way back in 1988!

[Operacion Saturno]

47 minutes ago, Murdoch17 said:

I don't understand the point of your comment. The question you asked was technically answered before you posted created this thread... it's been a fact since way back in 1988!

you are funny

[Operacion Saturno]

11 hours ago, GeoBrick said:

I'm so glad to see you typed that. 

I mean, its the flagship set of Blacktron. No bigger set was released until this year.

Thanks!
Man! Imagine you come up with a theory with evidence that strongly supports it and gets to the point a Senior Lego Designer takes the time to type an explanation to end up the discussion. I'm basking in glory.
Being wrong never felt so good.

Edited May 17 by Operacion Saturno
thanking

[danth]

11 hours ago, Operacion Saturno said:

You are late to the discussion. It's already solved.

Funny how you thought this was so important that it had to be posted here, facebook, and reddit, but now you just want to drop it. 😆

The point I was making was new to the discussion and therefore still salient.

[danth]

Actually this thought has been bouncing around in my head for a while and this is probably as good a thread as any for it: Blacktron has recently been described -- especially in the wake of the Renegade remake -- as being "modular" and "industrial". Like it was THE theme that was modular, and none of the other ones were, and it was super industrial for some reason, even though nobody can explain what this means.

I don't think it was more modular or industrial than any other Space theme. The Classic Space theme was modular since at least 1981 when the All Terrain Vehicle had an ingenious gimmick for dropping off its mobile lab. And then in 1982 with Cosmic Cruiser splitting apart and then 1983 with Galaxy Commander splitting into three modules. In 1985 the FX Star Patroller and Gamma V Laser Craft could recombine with each other since they shared the same detachable command vessel design. (EDIT: I might be wrong about this; I think the Laser Craft front can attach to the Star Patroller rear but not sure about vice versa.) These are just a few pre-Blacktron examples. It continued after Blackton as well, all the way to Galaxy Squad. So it wasn't so much that Blacktron was modular as Space was modular.

As for Blacktron being "industrial", everyone repeats it but nobody has explained what that means. But look at the main Exploriens starship if you want industrial; it had gratings everywhere and built in magnetic cranes and basically looked like a flying factory.

Edited May 18 by danth

[Operacion Saturno]

11 minutes ago, danth said:

Funny how you thought this was so important that it had to be posted here, facebook, and reddit, but now you just want to drop it. 😆

The point I was making was new to the discussion and therefore still salient.

Panduro worked on the design of the M.I.B. so if he says it was Blacktron, then is blacktron. there's nothing more to say about it. he designed both vehicles the spaceship and rover.

I'm not afraid to admit that I was wrong. You can't win them all. Also your argument about modules on bases is wrong. Bases with removable modules is esential to modern NASA space exploration designs.

I'm not dropping anything, the posts are still up. The theory is good and had solid arguments, but if he says it's not, then it's not.

Let's put it this way. If my theory wouldn't be that good, Panduro wouldn't bother to comment about it in teh first place. I have other theories I'm still working on them.

You were late, a day late, if you had comment before Panduro's comment. I would reply you. But, if you want to beat a dead horse, tehn is your problem.

 

[Operacion Saturno]

57 minutes ago, danth said:

Actually this thought has been bouncing around in my head for a while and this is probably as good a thread as any for it: Blacktron has recently been described -- especially in the wake of the Renegade remake -- as being "modular" and "industrial". Like it was THE theme that was modular, and none of the other ones were, and it was super industrial for some reason, even though nobody can explain what this means.

I don't think it was more modular or industrial than any other Space theme. The Classic Space theme was modular since at least 1981 when the All Terrain Vehicle had an ingenious gimmick for dropping off its mobile lab. And then in 1982 with Cosmic Cruiser splitting apart and then 1983 with Galaxy Commander splitting into three modules. In 1985 the FX Star Patroller and Gamma V Laser Craft could recombine with each other since they shared the same detachable command vessel design. These are just a few pre-Blacktron examples. It continued after Blackton as well, all the way to Galaxy Squad. So it wasn't so much that Blacktron was modular as Space was modular.

As for Blacktron being "industrial", everyone repeats it but nobody has explained what that means. But look at the main Exploriens starship if you want industrial; it had gratings everywhere and built in magnetic cranes and basically looked like a flying factory.

Your arguments are solid. The new Blacktron 1 or as they call it Blacktron 1.5 have modernized the Blacktron theme. They added a new gimmick which is the batteries to the theme. The modularity seen on Classic Space is different from the one on Blacktron. With Blactron you could interexchage modules between sets and that made a whole world of difference. Imagine what would be if you could take the front ship of the Alien Moon Stalker and place it on the Mobile Recovery Vehicle. That would be awesome!

I never tought about the interchangability of the FX Star Patroller and the Gamma V spaceships. That's a cool fact. 

I think the industrial feature on the Blactron 1.5 might refer as it looks like being structral. Like using supports and beams. Pieces like the 2x2x10 supports or the 1x6x5 support panels. The exploriens flag ship feeled flimpsy but in reality it was well designed and solid.

 

 

 

[danth]

9 hours ago, Operacion Saturno said:

The modularity seen on Classic Space is different from the one on Blacktron. With Blactron you could interexchage modules between sets and that made a whole world of difference.

That's the idea, I guess. But in reality...the Invader's technic pins were on the front ship, while the other Blacktron sets had the technic holes on the front ship. So you couldn't actually swap the front ship from the Invader to the other sets. You can put the Alienator front ship on the back of the Renegade/Battrax facing backwards, but that seems weird and unintentional. The Battrax front connection used only a single pin, while the Renegade and Alienator had two pins. You should still be able to swap them...except the Battrax main body had other parts that might get in the way of the Alienator and Renegade front ships...I haven't physically tried it, but I'm not convinced you can swap them.

So while there was some interchangeability between sets, it doesn't seem super well thought out or even intentional.

Edited May 18 by danth

[Operacion Saturno]

50 minutes ago, danth said:

That's the idea, I guess. But in reality...the Invader's technic pins were on the front ship, while the other Blacktron sets had the technic holes on the front ship. So you couldn't actually swap the front ship from the Invader to the other sets. You can put the Alienator front ship on the back of the Renegade/Battrax facing backwards, but that seems weird and unintentional. The Battrax front connection used only a single pin, while the Renegade and Alienator had two pins. You should still be able to swap them...except the Battrax main body had other parts that might get in the way of the Alienator and Renegade front ships...I haven't physically tried it, but I'm not convinced you can swap them.

So while there was some interchangeability between sets, it doesn't seem super well thought out or even intentional.

Yeah, it's like Lego told 3 different designers to work on a dual pin sistem 4 brick wide and then everyone went to their offices and returned a month later without talking to each other in the meantime

 

[Artanis I]

Yes, Blacktron 1 modularity wasn't truly interchangeable. Besides Space Police cells (and some M:Tron storage boxes), there wasn't a proper interchangeable module system within a faction until Blacktron 2 octo-pods and then the Unitron cockpits. Although, I think there may have been 1 or 2 combinations that didn't quite work.

[TeriXeri]

Looking at 1988 catalogues on brickset.

It was not Blacktron in Belgium catalogue apparently, they were called <<Black Star>>  in both Dutch and French.

UK however, "Blacktron Star Base" was the set name, along with Blacktron Prowler, Cruiser and Strider released the same year.

US catalogue goes even further, with a unique big Blacktron font logo and BLACKTRONtm names , and the other set the names were given more sci-fi names, with Invader, Alienator, Battrax , and the Renegade.

 

Regional differences were quite common at the time, as seen with Forestmen / Robin Rood, and Crusaders / Lion Knights / Lionheart Knights etc. 

Edited May 19 by TeriXeri

[Operacion Saturno]

11 hours ago, TeriXeri said:

Looking at 1988 catalogues on brickset.

It was not Blacktron in Belgium catalogue apparently, they were called <<Black Star>>  in both Dutch and French.

UK however, "Blacktron Star Base" was the set name, along with Blacktron Prowler, Cruiser and Strider released the same year.

US catalogue goes even further, with a unique big Blacktron font logo and BLACKTRONtm names , and the other set the names were given more sci-fi names, with Invader, Alienator, Battrax , and the Renegade.

 

Regional differences were quite common at the time, as seen with Forestmen / Robin Rood, and Crusaders / Lion Knights / Lionheart Knights etc. 

That is correct, there were "discrepancies " with this sets, that made me believe there was some exchange between the factions, but I was wrong.