Hinckley

I must've missed that. Now you're verified.

Well, stay calm. Looking back at it directly your offer is a cross between the two. You said something, paraphrasing, "If you and your inner pantheon want Dragmall lynched, you don't have the votes to achieve that. It would go a long way in convincing me if you gave me the identity of one of the deities and I could confirm your story with then." Can you agree that this sounds more like what you said? I'm protecting people, potentially, with power roles. You come trying to force your way in. I tell you I don't trust you and you keep pressuring me. I'm going to take that as threatening. You say every time we talk that I'm the most paranoid player in Valjalla. Well, it's not paranoia, it's being careful. I don't respond well to someone trying to pressure me. I don't like the way you are trying to force your way in. You can make a decision without me revealing anyone to you. If you are Scum and I give you just one identity we could lose someone important. Why would you feel the need to push so hard for someone's identity right now. I told you once we confirmed each other I'd be more than happy to work with you. I was on my way to trusting you. Why do you feel the need to keep pushing? It's suspicious that you need that identity now now now. Since then Demeter came forward and confirmed his part of the story. Wasn't that enough? You want all of the deities?

What you said, and why I don't trust you, was "I'll vote for Dragmall, if you tell me who Poseidon is." I don't respond well to blackmail and I find it very telling that you would leave your bullying tactics out.

Sorry I'm not giving you the names of my allies in private. I have no reason to trust you and your threats aren't doing anything to convince me. I understand you want to be in the inner circle and you want to be in control of things, but your aggressive behavior is the same behavior I fell for in a past life and I do not care to fall for it again. Until I have reason to trust you, I will not tell you anything. This is exactly what I've already told you in private.

You know my theory is that the Town needs as much info as possible and it's the best way to get everyone engaged. Too much back door dealings can only lead to the garden. This way is better because it puts everyone's balls on the table, so to speak...so we can all play table tennis. Coached or not, the second defense needed to explain the possible slip-up of the first one: Anyone would do better than the first time to do a course correction on that. From the first time it was pointed out, I agree that this statement appears to come from the mindset of a Scum. I think this is the best lead to follow. He hasn't defended anyone all day but himself. He's offered no opinion on the other votes. So who does he observe to be innocent then? Is he just Scum sitting back and watching two Townies battle it out? vote: Gerrid (Captain Genaro) This has been a very active and interesting second Day. We have plenty of other situations to monitor as the game progresses.

I'd like to be manly someday. Oink oink!

Something has been brought to my attention that I cannot ignore. Unvote: Dragmall (Dragonator)

We know he was Einherjar, why would he try to lead me astray? Was it an obvious joke or was he leading me astray? And is there a rule about communicating outside of PMs? I must've missed it. Private discussion doesn't seem to be limited to PMs. I had no reason to not think that the conversation I had regarding the game wasn't part of the game. If you have access to these logs, I would imagine you would be able to see if there was a way I might take it seriously or that it was never revealed to me as a joke. I've answered all the concerns about my behavior yesterday. What specifically are you concerned about? What other motivation could I have to suspect you? I had no suspicions of you before Steinvoir made his "joke". In analyzing the need for two investigators I came up with the possibility that there would be a neutral or third faction out there. That lead me back to what Steinvoir said. It's as simple as that. I brought the info forward. Others responded to wanting to learn your identity and then you threw a very suspicious fit. You haven't done anything since to make me believe you are Einherhar.

Thank you. I appreciate you helping verify my story.

It's simple. I had two investigator claims. Bringing the information forward got everyone thinking and talking and more equipped to find out what we're up against. If it seemed to everyone that either one was lying, I would've revealed them. And I was advised by the people you think don't exist that it was a good time to bring it forward. But it turns out the second investigator was a mistaken inference. Why would I not bring it forward? The Town is as strong as the information it has. I want to strengthen the Town. It has certainly brought a lot of activity to analyze today and that will be the most powerful tool for us as the days start to stack up.

Your anger and metagaming empty accusations at me since certainly don't give me any confidence that you're not lying. Look back on what I've said. I've been willing to look objectively at the situation. But your persistence against me makes me think that I've struck some nerve with you. If you have the records of what was said, can't you see that I took what was said seriously? Why haven't you posted it? Have you asked God if you can? I'm ready to answer for my Actions, bring it on. Viking to pig-megablocker. I thought what was said was serious and at no time was any indication given to me that it was a joke, especially not a joke that was at my expense for recent events. I certainly would've remembered that. But, with the oddity of Artemis's roleclaim and the prospect that she may be our only investigator, could you see why I would think a neutral claim might be something to follow up on? Sorry I can't see through your pure metagaming and anger to see how you're not hiding something at this point. You haven't seemed very rational to me today, nor do you seem like you have anything to go on except for the fact that I accused you. How did you know it was you before I revealed you? If the record was brought to you by someone else or you never said that yourself, how did you identify yourself as Hades before I revealed it? Let me be quite clear. I would reveal Artemis if everyone wanted me to. I do not hear the cry for her name at this point. Same goes for anyone else in the play. People were asking for Hades and I provided his name. Until then, I'm going to view any statement like "You can't even prove these people exist" as trying to get me to prove it by revealing them. They've come to me, I'm protecting them. I'm the first line of defense for these claimed power roles. If everyone thinks I'm making the whole thing up and lynches me, so be it. The first line of defense falls and readies the second line for battle. I will not reveal anybody just to save myself.

I can accept their opinions that it was presented as a joke. I did not take it that way at the time, and you know as well as anybody else that I never go in that pub and am unaware of these unwritten rules about making false roleclaims.

This is a very subjective statement. If I was the brunt of the joke, I clearly missed it. I don't see how you could be so persistent on what my viewpoint of the situation was. If the "joke" was meant to "poke fun" at me, I still fail to see the joke. I hate that pub anyway. If Valjalla's server hadn't crashed in Germany, I wouldn't even have started drinking there. I should just stick with my piggies... Yes, I have a long track record of writing plays as Scum... The times in recent memories when I was Scum, there were no plays. The nature of Bloodbrick II made it impossible anyway. Why is our esteemed D&D moderator engaging in such heavy metagaming? Let's have a proper discussion about it then. What about my behavior yesterday was so suspicious? And no, I didn't talk to Steinvoir before this game started and I would hardly call it a tradition that I do, just because it happened once. I was certainly not going to talk to him after the vitriole after the last D&D recreation I hosted. Again, why is so much of what you are saying pure metagaming? And I never said anything about you enjoying killing everyone. That doesn't sound like me at all. And I had no suspicions of you before "the joke" was made. I feel rather indecisive and rather it's you who has angry tunnel vision on me. I've been discussing other possibilities all day, even after voting for you. My vote stands as I think it's clear your perspective is either Scum, or maybe some sort of third-faction, neutral, I don't know, weirdness. You're acting more and more like you have something to hide. Focusing all of your energy on accusing me and offering nothing else to help the Town. Anger and accusing your accuser. I'm feeling less indecisive every time you post. It's called Inglorius Raucus Camaraderie. Or IRC. I would have no objections to these "transcripts" being posted here if the rules would allow it.

Obviously, Demeter knows who Artemis is too. So that is four of us... Sorry, that slipped my mind.

As I've said there are two other people who know she is real, plus Artemis herself and I hope she doesn't fall for this and reveal herself. Your behavior seems like you're trying to get her to claim to you or to everyone. Do you honestly believe there is no possibility that he claimed neutral while actually being Scum? Perhaps claiming neutral to excuse activity he may be caught doing? Yes, very good. What have I been saying that doesn't add up? I can't answer to vague accusations and heavy sarcasm And where are others saying that my story doesn't add up? I'm seeing people confirming what I've said. I see backup that it is adding up. Yesterday, you took what I said out of context. I agreed with Danr's defense of Bergulf and then voted for Danr, which you claim makes me suspicious. That would make sense if Danr had accused Bergulf. But Danr had defended him with a valid defense and yes, I agree, Danr was right, yesterday was a typical day for Bergulf in the history of games...of life. So, if Danr was Scum (which we now know he's not) and was defending Bergulf to win favor with the Town, he would've had to have had a valid defense that the Town would readily be able to agree with. See where your original train of thought was just off? Since then, I've worked my pigs off for the Town, trying to coordinate claims in private and bring forward information in a way that doesn't endanger anyone. And now you are hinting that I would be less suspicious if you knew who Artemis was. Why would I throw all of my hard work away to verify myself when revealing Artemis could result in the death of our potentially only investigator? And how could a story like mine be made up? A lot of Townies are in that play as aliases, they know who they are and they know I'm telling the truth. I think you're very smart and I respect you a great deal but your analysis is way off here. If I'm lynched, I'll turn up Town and all my hard work will still pay off as everyone I've been in contact with will know that I've been on the level with them. If I'm lynched, I really hope you're Scum, because your mistrust of me is disappointing.

Hopefully, you can see my analysis of this evolving. I'm listening to the input of others and factoring it in. Sorry if I'm being confusing. I'm confused myself. Trying to make sense of all this is dizzying. I've said Dragmall could be neutral as Steinvoir (arguably joking) claimed or he could be up to something else. It's more about his reaction, which doesn't seem like he has the best interest of the Town. I do know, as the play implicates. We agreed on Dionysus. Two other people, Poseidon and Aphrodite are aware of the situation. I told one person as a backup in case I ended up dead. If Artemis had got herself in too deep with an elaborate story, I wanted Aphrodite to implicate Artemis if I ended up dead. Then Aphrodite made me nervous and I went to Poseidon for a double backup. Explanation of why they made me nervous would probably give their identities away and I'm invested in protecting them for now. Yes, I have a small arsenal and I acquired it early. It is up to all of us to decide (well, I know my decision) if I should be trusted with this or not. I'll go down before I give these guys up, unless I see evidence that they are not to be trusted. I see reason why Artemis contacting me makes sense and that's all I'll say. There's too much at risk for me to explain that further. Aphrodite and Poseidon know why. And they're still talking to me. As far as the neutral roleclaim goes, I agree. It would be hard to let this go unverified, but if Artemis is telling the truth, then we can expose him. Derrick's posts are really wacky. Although I remember this great old tale of a spaceship called Excalibur 2.0 where all of these noobs kept falling on the chopping block even though they were innocent but they were just ridiculously goofy in their gameplay that we lost half the town to weird weird circumstances. However, look at the thought behind what was said. "I trust people and I'll defend them if needed. Until then I have nothing to add." Sounds like Scum perspective. "I know who I would want to defend... they're not being accused..." I'm fine with either of them being lynched, but we can't split the votes. This has to be way out of context... Are we missing something?

I was the one who said Lynch all Liars, based on a great ancient text, MafiaWiki. That is more about people who try to run "sting operations" and how they affect the Town and distract from the task at hand. Gerrid's statements are ridiculous, maybe not lies, maybe just a profound misunderstanding of things. Waiting to defend someone you trust is the most ridiculous statement he has made. Who does he trust on Day Two that he's lying in wait to defend? I have people I trust, but none of them are verified and Gerrid doesn't seem anywhere near as active as I'm being. I'd be willing to test this out if it wasn't for: Sigh... Me over-react? Did I? It's not unprecedented and the other two witnesses seem to think it was a joke. I'm still very worried about Dragmall's defense. It doesn't seem like a Town-perspective defense at all. I suppose this is typical for him, but when he is on either side, he always acts the same! It's hard to not want an answer. If he and Gerrid are both Scum, I'd be much more worried about Dragmall's brain than Gerrid's. If we were to vote for Gerrid instead, I would want Artemis to investigate one of us, obviously not telling anyone who. I think Gerrid's statements are ridiculous, but I'm hesitant to change my vote at this time. Am I just stuck in my original perspective? No, I'm usually calm.

I do not understand the use of spoiler tags... I contacted several people on Day One as that has become the new norm. It's a game, I've been really excited about playing this one, I wanted to have fun. We usually talk. Most of the original PMs I sent were just fun banter, talking about mathematics and loving pigs, etc... There was no exchange of information, nor did I fish for information. Since you contacted me during Day One of a previous game...of life, I thought I'd "return the favor" and reach out from the beginning as well. Contacting the people you've worked with in the past is a good way to get information from people eventually. If your buddies are playing against you, you will eventually catch if they are lying. The more interaction you have with people you're used to interacting with, the better chance you have to figure out if you can trust them. We talked about Bergulf's slip of the tongue, which I thought was a good catch. If you were being that analytical that early, I thought it would be an asset for us to speak to each other. This is disappointing to me because I've been nothing but honest with you about this. You were annoyingly pressing me to come forward with something. Why would I tell you everything in private when I don't have you verified? I wanted to come forward with a lot of this earlier, but unfortunately I'm not made out of time. and I had other things to consider. I sought advice from Poseidon about when to reveal these things and wanted to watch what people would do first before it was revealed. I had every reason to be patient and let it unfold slowly. All the information I have is true and out on the table for the Town to figure this out. I've had other things I've been dealing with and put a great deal of time into putting the case together. Judging by our personal interactions, you know why I wouldn't suspect Bergulf at this time. I'm surprised you would expect me to. And why would I be protective of Artemis? She may be our only investigator and you'll have to lynch me before I verify who she is. Yes, you were one of the ones I was referring to. Steinvoir seemed certain to me. It's certainly interesting considering he's dead now, and yes I do think there could be reasons Steinvoir was killed. The discussion we had revolved around Dragmall claiming to be neutral. Our memories differ there, because at no point in time do I ever remember Steinvoir saying "I declare this a joke." Or "just kidding" or "I was just messing with you guys." I'm surprised you would dismiss it all considering it didn't seem conclusive to me, at all, that it was just a joke. And now you're re-defining what I've brought forward. I don't see it as a joke. I see it as something that was legitimately told to us in the context of the game. It certainly was with enough certainty that the Town deserves to know what was said. Your analysis of my behavior is unfortunately off, but I'm bringing the information to the Town that we need to figure out what we're up against. I think Dragmall's defense is empty metagaming and posturing and shows he has something to hide. I'm willing to die to prove that. I take responsibility for starting the lynch on Danr, as I said, but we've had private conversations about this. If you think about what we talked about you know I had a reason for doing it. You know it, you're just not thinking about it. One might think that you are pushing me to reveal things to you. I hope you are just a concerned and overly paranoid Townie and not trying to manipulate me into telling you all of the Townie roles that I know. Honestly, no worries. If you are doing what you think is right, that is how we should play. Play hard, find out what you can. If I go down fighting for the Town, that's a good game for me. If I get lynched, just promise me you'll take out the trash tomorrow. If you are trying to get me lynched because you're Scum and you feel I'm a threat, no hard feelings either. You do what you have to do according to what God has ordained. Thank you. Again, it's interesting to hear you thought of it as a joking context at all. My response to it was something along the lines of "Noooooooooooooooo! I want to live! Why? Why is he the serial killer again? I wanted to play this one. " I was pretty certain I was being told the truth and suspected that Dragmall might come after me, due to extenuating circumstances that did not happen in this lifetime, namely that during a previous D & D simulation, I pissed off his close friend and thought if they were working together and Dragmall was a killer, I would certainly be killed Night One. I'm alive on Day Two, but the information is still out there, given to us by Steinvoir and it's worth considering, at least. I think worse is Dragmall's reaction. I believe he has something to hide based on that, especially considering it's a defensive posture. He offers no help for the Town, no insight into our situation, just "I'm not neutral, you're Scum." Seems like typical Scummy behavior to me, or the behavior of someone who is hiding something, but I can only see things from my perspective.

If there are neutrals out there, as you suggested earlier, that could win with either side, their numbers could count against the Town anyway. I don't want that. In my experience, any neutral should be dealt with because the probability of them being up to no good is too high. Just unsuccessful was the only result. I think you've already seen the answer to this one. This is a good point. Artemis was actual totally willing to investigate herself against another target once she checked for clarity. It still bugs me, though. Why choose that wording? It did originally stand out to me. I purposely used the term in that quote to draw attention to the fact that it was used. I'm poking a bit of fun at the host there. Maybe I'm just hung up on the word. Why are they cultists as well? We don't know much about them except that they don't like magic boar and they're doing the bidding of Loki. It's just something to look out for. Judging by the way Artemis's role works, I still think it's possible some sort of third-party or second Scum faction is out there. Is it? So, you're fine to just explain it away with metagaming and not consider other possibilities? It is possible he was killed because of something he revealed or discovered.

If you choose to believe Dragmall's defense of metagaming and posturing, feel free. However, there are at least two witnesses to the pub incident with Steinvoir and I do hope they'll come to the forefront and backup my statement. As to your question why would someone claim neutral, perhaps you are unfamiliar with the relationship between Steinvoir and Dragmall. It is not surprising at all that this would happen. Much stranger things have happened in the past, but that is the past. I can't help but feel something is definitely up judging by past experience and the fact that Steinvoir said this to me. More interesting however, and not based on the past, is the fact that Steinvoir was killed on Night One. Was he killed by the serial killer, a neutral serial killer? Were the Scum then blocked? We don't know this for sure yet. But considering a serial killer as a possibility, if he claimed to Steinvor, which is exceedingly common, (even if the two of them do explain it away as some elaborate game) we know (and we've seen before) if their claims don't match up, it turns out bad for one or the other. Steinvoir told at least three of us that Dragmall claimed neutral. Steinvoir was killed. Is Dragmall neutral? If he's Scum it's likely that he even claimed neutral to excuse some Nocturnal activity. Maybe he's actually Scum and was trying to pre-empt Steinvoir targeting him. Dead Steinvoir + Dragmall claiming neutral and only having metagaming to defend himself = trouble.

Please appreciate that analysis of the person's playing style could give their identity away and if the Scum can identify this person, we'll lose our investigative ability. Yes, I have weighed all the possibilities concerning timing and playing style. Because, as it turns out, Demeter has contacted me and was "using a personal idiom" when he told Artemis that "a little birdie told him". So, I do apologize, but I inferred way too much and Demeter is not, in fact, an investigator. Why she (because Demeter is female) would be so vague or misleading should still be under scrutiny, but for now I think the identity of Artemis should stay protected.

Not surprisingly, Hades is Dragmall. vote: Dragmall (Dragonator)

I've thought of these things as well, but that's my concern about there being two targets. This could be a way to explain why she (Artemis) might be seen targeting two people. Is she a bus driver? Is she up to something else when she's targeting two people? I agree with your analysis, but there are other reasons to make up an elaborate undprecedented role. That tactic is not unprecedented.

Do you mean screwed as in how people screw pigs?

Trust me, I know it's a mess. I've been bouncing it around in my head quite a bit, with the help of Poseidon. I agree with the idea to lynch Hades, but I'll only reveal it if others agree. If there's a cult, we need to stop it before it steamrolls us... From a great ancient text called Mafiawiki: "If the Cult is not exterminated within the first two game Days, they almost inevitably win."