Endgame

I'm certain that there wouldn't be just thugs hanging around Triad Park waiting for a hero to rob. Also, Donny is a self-proclaimed pcikpocket, and he was a figurehead. I'm sure he mugged some non-heroes. Ordained by Ulric or not, an action under the wolfgang banner is done by the Wolfgang. That is another reason Sorrow, at any rate, opposes him: he cannot keep his own mooks under control, so how would he regulate an entire city? Houses definitely have done some shady stuff, but Hinckwell's and Shadeaux's main goals are to sell their wares. Guild Of Invision sells their alchemy creations on the streets of Eubric, the Bonapartes keep pirates off the seas (albeit in a way detrimental to people), and the Ziegfrieds and Ji Pei are... pretty harmless, really. They're all helping Eubric in some way, but they end up tripping over eachother in the process. Also, the riot from 44 was specifically made to kill the Bonapartes, if I recall.

Definitely not individually, and even combined is questionable, especially given Ulric's main goal.

They brainwashed everyone in the room in 66, not just the houses, and they've been known to just be skulking around in the park at night. Not to mention the examples I provided, only 2 of them really served to off the houses.

Karie goes in a ballistic fit, rushing the already wounded Oculoid, stabbing him repeadetly through the eye. The inky creature falls to the ground as the rapier plunges through its bodty again and again, venomous ink spurting out of every thrust of the sword. Karie pulls back after violently stabbing the oculoid almost a dozen times, the demon now just a bubbling mass of plasm. The glow of its eye dims and flickers, and it stagger sna d struggle sot get aloft even in inch. Blobs of plasm fall off from the wounded beast, some tentacles even gone from the creature. One more stab would kill it. "Heh... heh heh... You'd only stab me that many times if it was true... And you know it, don't you, Karie? You wouldn't be angry otherwise... Allllll true... Heh heh heh... Now, gentlemen. Any last words for me before your gallant leader scoops out my retina?"

Collateral is collateral, and they are causing tons of it.

That is their intention, though. They want to use the havoc to destroy the houses, by the looks of it.

Thugs: Pretty much most mook appearances. Marauders/Highwaymen: 73, Escort Service. Constantly attempted to off us and take the cart. Thieves: Ques6, Fishmarket, Quest 34, Traid Park. A lot of them have gold snatching specials as well. General Trouble Makers: Self explanatory, most appearances. Stirring Up Life Threatening Scenarios: The riots in 44. Gambling With Lives/Manipulation: Violetta (The Bunney Burglar/Crimson Assassin), Ulric (The generals, most of his underlings in general.)

"...You're still not goin to listen, are you. Was it the boyfriend comment, or the physique one? Either way, your eventual fate just makes no difference. You're going to die either way, so might as well just shishkebab the demon, eh?"

Fair enough, point taken. Perhaps my main problem is that they have bneen portrayed as thugs, marauders, highwaymen, thieves, and general trouble makers, as well as stirring up life-threatening scenarios and gambling with lives for almost the entire game, really. That was one of the reasons I only involved the Wolfgang once, and that was in 70 - even then the Syndicate was the main focus, not the Wolfgang. The fact that they help the hovels really doesn't match up with their portfolio, mooks or leaders. In character, they just seem to me too much like just a crime gang to be seen as a force that is helping Eubric. And so far, it hasn't been shown.

The seven corpses in 70 say otherwise, unfortunately. Also, I haven't seen the houses really disregard yet, and the Wolfgang certainly has no problem letting their low rankers die. (Donny complimented Sorrow on the pile of corpses he made.)

Agreed. I would think that is house vs house, not house vs the general population.

I don't recall Quest 2 or 58 at all, and I read both of those twice. 4 is quite the fine line, though, I'll give you that.

Hey, houses don't have a bunch of ruthless thugs who just go out and commit crimes under their banner.

The groans, as if frustrated by the party's incompetance. How he saw it, at any rate... "You don't get it, do you? I am an Oculoid, Witch. Born to strike fear into the hearts of humans and drive them to madness, corrupting and possessing everything I touch. I could pry into each and every one of your many insecurities - all of you, such unstable beings! I could lecture you on your inferior appearance, dig up your worst memories and force you to relive them, reveal to you that your boyfriend is an absolute maniac who loves you only out of desperation. I could haunt the Raider of memories of his past, and the necromancer is doing a plenty good job of torturing himself to begin with. I could break you. All of you. And my brethren will try, before killing you outright. You've taken my mercy gracefully enough, heroes, so take my warning as well: get the hell out of this forest, and live whatever amount of your meaningless lives you have left. Because it won't be long before they're over, especially if you linger here."

Quest 66 actually made the Wolfgang seem more evil, to me. It showed Ulric was a manipulative jerk who was willing to spend and ruin lives to secure power, and an absolutely sinister witch was also at the helm.

I haven't seen anyone really support the Wolfgang in character, besides some choices early in the game. (Even then, those have never really been capitilized on.) Even the vocal supporters of the Wolfgang no longer really side with them. Also: You really can't lose Wolfgang rep, minus outright betrayal, so that gives them a further advantage on the Ji Pei rep. (also the fact that quests with Ji Pei rep are surprisingly few and far between.)

I think it goes under the "show, don't tell" rule. The Wolfgang say they're helping the hovels, but they never really diverge how, even when prodded. Their solution is 'Put Ulric on the throne", but he has been shown to be completely willing to dispose his best men and women just to put himself head. Not something many heroes could side with, even the more twisted ones. In quests, -Donny was shown just filching off of people in the Fishmarket. -Violetta manipulated people and sent people to die to break into the House's houses. -They ignited a riot that only succeede in getting the rioters killed or mortally wounded. -Endangered about half a dozen people who didn't even reside in Eubric and had no business with them. In between the theivery, gambling with lives, and starting riots... we've never really "seen" the help provided. And that makes a big difference.

The Oculoid seems to simply get more vicious than ever, simply abandoning his arrogant tones to get the point across in the simplest way possible. "I don't think you have the mind to comprehend, necromancer. I serve my master by not aiding you. I live to further his goals by any means neccasary. Nothing more. I have no name, no identity. I don't need it. I was born with a purpose, and that is more than anything of you will ever have." The Oculoid looks away, seeming to experience a rare moment of empathy. "Heroes. Leave. Now. Flee this forest. You are getting wrapped up in something bigger than all of us can understand. Much, much bigger. That is the only aid I dare provide." Theis horde of demons, a mysterious of master, a spark of life... what were the heroes getting themselves tangled into...?

The Oculoid seems to take delight in not answering. "Do you hero types expect every beaten person you come across to simply blurt every piece of knowledge they have? I was born to, made to, and live to serve, you cretins. Don't expect any answers that may aid you." The party could almost swear the demon was smiling. He hangs close to the ground, globs of ink still dripping off of his battered frame - but he didn't seem to mind. He drifts over to a flower, poking its stem with a foul tentacle. Black veins of ink travel up and down it, the plant withering instantly. It soon revives itselfm but as a toxic tendril. It was as if these Oculoids corrupted everything they touched... How much power did they wield? The Oculoid turns back to Johon, still losing plasm. "More of us? Ohhh yes. Try three hundred, and growing. And I'm among the weakest, much to my eternal shame. Why must gifted minds like me be cursed by lack of savage finesse? Of course, not all of us are here, or the forest would've been corrupted ten times over by now."

Is there anymore vocal supporters? I seem to remember the others expressing regret that the ever sided, and only Benji and Romulus have liked them - Romulus has turned on them, and flare mentioned betraying them as well.

Ninjas riding dinosaurs?

A lot of the times, they have no reason to side with the rebels. Unfortunately, I fear the Wolfgang may be the most glaring of the bunch to suffer that flaw. I love your quests, Sandy, but it is just something I've noted.

Also: For Wolfgang VS The Houses... I don't think many, if any, heroes would be too inclined to side with the Wolfgang over the houses at this point in the story. Their lackies have been portrayed as thugs, and the higher-ups haven't been shown to be plenty destructive as well. The three generals were just pawns, Baba is clearly evil, and Ulric seems to be little better.

Charis was more begging for mercy then anything, really.

Why the "give" headache part?