Shadows

Here we go again. 1) Mafia? I do not know that tribe, but I am certain that I can learn their ways quickly. Why am I shown holding a gun in that picture? I do not have a gun, I sleep soundly in my bed at night. 2) Too actively, as always. 3) Tyr, known for fair play, rules and justice. Alternately, I'm rather fond of Tohstre. In Norway, every other Tuesday is the day of the toaster. People gather and pay homage to the almighty god Tohstre.

Clearly.

Tough one! 5. Darkdragon - 1 2. Cornelius Murdock - 1 4. Sinner - 1

And now everyone nose.

So gay.

You did wait two days to update the official rules and had to apologize for that at the time, plus you had a hard time finding the change yourself, so it wasn't an unreasonable thing to ask, but hey, we never argued about it. I asked, explained my position, then moved on. It was just fair to mention that even you didn't read your own rules as regularly as you think we were all supposed to. I certainly don't see anyone rushing in saying, "gee, I noticed that change and didn't understand why it happened." Authorized final word, woohoo! You were never going to do any of that, we've proven that by now. DO EET! Seriously, give it a shot, I'd love it!

But you'll still metagame me first chance you get. It's kind of funny in retrospect, but during one or two of the days I made comments about how I knew the vig was doing their very best and that it's a tremendously difficult position to be in. I was being completely sincere, at least one came before I knew it was you. Town power roles put you in the worst position. You need allies, you need information, and most of all, you need to be able to work without being discovered and if you learn something, you need to be able to present it without exposing yourself. It's practically impossible to come up with all of that before you either get lynched for not being helpful or looking suspicious or the scum kill you, or worse, start influencing you. I've never found an answer for this problem as a townie, it always comes down to luck and for a vig, luck rarely favours you.

No and it's ridiculous to expect, the same as it was ridiculous when you crossed out a name and changed it in the role PMs, expecting that we would reread those every time we opened the PM after seeing them 100 times already. Note to future players (but only in Hinck's games): You need to make a file of the rules each day and do a line by line comparison of them to see if the host made minor alterations to them without announcing it, despite the fact that he himself didn't update his own rules concerning quirk penalties until several days after it happened and did that with an announcement. Clearly keeping a townie from dying for breaking the posted rules was more important than pointing out a subtle change that I'm sure not a damn person noticed, or had any reason to notice. The role was wrong the second it said corruptible, long before any fighting, so no, I will never accept a bastard conversion and neither would you in this position. Not in a million years. If this was reversed, you would still be fighting something so clearly wrong just as much as I am. It's a shame the town gave up or they might see how much this harmed them and take some interest. Except there was no evidence of that, he never killed the wrong person, he only appeared to fail and there were lots of ways to justify that. You accepted his actions from me, they should have worked or they shouldn't have been accepted. With clowns? On an amusing side note, your most obvious scum tell when caught in your mistakes is reacting like you just did. Oink.

Secret PM? The game said that we were required to send our action in the official role PM, the one you added him to because he was scum. But wasn't. Then you said I could submit all of the actions for our team in our role PM, which I did. You accepted the actions I submitted for him without ever saying they were invalid, even though you were silently ignoring the SK part and taking them privately from him. Despite him being on our team. In his former role PM, not his current one, which was part of the scum. Come on, admit it, this is starting to get through to you by now, it has to be. Nah, it's just looked like you being a dick and didn't come as a surprise to any of us. Exactly.

Your hearing and reading skills are still as good as ever, but your face is looking better.

A unique concept with a very nice presentation, a little piece of an unfamiliar world. 36. Your point?

I removed the LEGO train gifs that were triggering the warning. Completely harmless, not even a link to the site. If Google and WOT mark every forum in which someone uses an image from a possibly infected site, then marks every site that links to those forums by the same theory of guilt by association, it'll take about a week for the entire internet to be blocked. Welcome to the new paranoid internet.

Which is why I said that being told he was a commuter stuck in my head. Geez, you admit something honest around here and get beaten down for it. Right, because no one reads a wall of text that should be the same as it was the 3 times they've already read it. Crossing out one line out of hundreds and sticking a name next to it is not abundantly obvious. You, on the other hand, posted the wrong rules for days and no one caught it, even you. The only reason it was caught is because someone violated the posted rules and you didn't want to enforce them as listed, but instead had to dig and dig to find where you had said you were changing them, but hadn't. So lay off the reading bit, that's a perfect example of how easy it is to overlook a small detail in a wall of text that otherwise stays the same. Seriously. So, honestly, were you really a boy bulldog in drag, because you sure as hell looked like it.

I remember you saying I was wrong about something, but you're right, it was Eskallon, which I clearly knew. I really just wanted to say thanks, but I had to stay in character at that point. I don't even trust me. The protector thing was funny, you'd hinted at it fairly blatantly in game, and then you told me thinking I had somehow missed it and I just went along because that's what I do. And then you told me about the commuter, which actually got the idea that she was only a commuter so stuck in my mind that when she bodyguarded Rufus, I though Hinck was screwing us over. Well, he was, but not that part. You were a blast.

As opposed to Shagonator? If I was scum, I could just fake the same effect. It might take slightly longer, but in most games that wouldn't be obvious. The real fun would be another game with no one allowed to PM except the scum. Remember those, the games where silver tongued toaster salesmen had to work out in the open and nobody could role claim to anyone at all because there was nowhere to do it privately? That could be some fun.

His response was fine, yours was not. It is not now, nor will it ever be your place to moderate anything here, especially the staff. Since you have more than 6 posts, I'm sure you'll agree that a less gentle reminder was perfectly acceptable in your case.

Day one should never be scripted by the scum. Going into the game with a plan is too easy to spot early. Day one alliances, or even the appearance of one, is a sure sign of scum. Like Eskallon and Scumba. IF we're ever in this position again, and I'm not saying we will be, there will definitely be a different way of handling that situation. There is never a time when the host should adjust the game because he sees something that the scum are discussing, so if it takes keeping all of that out of sight to prevent it, it's worth it. I never would have expected that, to be honest, but you say you changed things according to what you saw, so it won't happen again. Refer to Asylum II for that answer. Then ask yourself when you became def. "But enough about the scum, let's talk about me!" They really did and I them all for it. I have a new respect for each and every one of you who lived past day 1. *pokes Masked Builder* Yep, still dead. I remember the post and it wasn't really meant to be patronizing, though it clearly was. It was actually the point where I recognised that they had grown since the beginning of the game. When we first started, I kept thinking, "oh god, it's another one of these teams, I've had them before, I can win with them, but it's going to be like babysitting the whole time." When I made that post, I stopped thinking of them that way, despite how it sounded. We discussed it in our private PM and came to the conclusion that no host in their right mind would put a scum team in that position. Apparently some part of that idea was wrong. You know which one I think it was. Speaking of which, I'm not going to be able to make it this weekend, but I'll make it up to the kids later. Promise. Oh, and the check is in the mail. It didn't matter how convinced I got at times, the overall insanity of a 3rd party being inserted in the scum and given access to everything including a role was too much to overcome. I seriously hope to never see a role like that again. We shall see. If you must. I love that post. I will always love that post. As games seem to go well, I get more and more ridiculous in my approach to them. That was my over-the-top post for the game, and so much fun to make. I was one step from proclaiming myself a member of the Fabuland Bureau of Investigation, by the way. Had there been another day... How can you be, I've said it 100 times. I said it when it was proposed, I've said it between games and in all kinds of discussions. Team win doesn't work, it opens the door to cheating, for one thing. It also ruins the use of usurpers, and this game is proof of that. If, as you say, Draggy was really scum, no matter what his win condition, his winning made all of the scum win. Yay, scum team win! And if he wasn't scum why was he using one of our actions and told who we were? See where this is going? That's the only benefit of team win. It's a tricky issue, I'll admit. I want to find a middle ground somehow. We were getting closer, this one was a punch in the face. I don't think I'll be happy until I see you play a scum game in which you're given an impossible situation to deal with and the win is taken from you at the last second. Yes, I'm really that horrible of a person. You're still dead! (inside joke) I don't like giving day 1 directions, it puts the scum in a position of looking too closely aligned too soon. I wish I'd made an exception here, but you certainly salvaged it for a while, which says a lot for your slipperiness. That's a word? Firefox says so, and we all know to trust the fiery fox. I couldn't have said it better myself, Amy was the perfect stoner horse, and that's saying something. So calm and casual. Every time I started to see your talent, you'd suggest something that would have instantly been the lynch of the day. It was a hilarious rollercoaster, but in the end you did good job and I'll remember it in the future. I'm not sure if that's good or bad for you. Like I said, by the end of a game, I get pretty ridiculous. In this case, I was relying on "let's avenge Brigit!" who I actually believed had tracked Amy, so a nod to Sandy for a damn fine bluff that worked perfectly to my advantage. YOU FINALLY ADMIT IT! YOU BASTARD! SCUM WIN BY HOST ERROR! Seriously, letting a 3rd party in our pm and having them use one of our actions, it's just so ridiculous it's both brilliant and game breaking. Mostly the latter. This is why you people are supposed to kill him on night 1, and by you people, I also mean that I should have. No sentimentality, no "aw poor Draggy getting metagamed again", just kill the bastard. You know I don't blame you for the role you had to play, Draggy, and you played it brilliantly. You've also told me how hard it was for you, so for that, I hate you I love you. I love you all. Enough said. We didn't have Fangy for days and days and we never had Draggy. Quit saying that, it's not true! NOT TRUE AT ALL. I get points for never complaining about that, by the way. There's no reason for them to be on the same side. If they can't play opposites, they shouldn't play. I have no doubt they can do it, have faith in them, hosts. Oh god. Well there you have it folks. IF I come back, remember... I was neutral, then scum, so I'll obviously be town. Write it down and don't lose it, towniest of town, that's me. Sent me a one line taunting PM after he died, laughing because I was wrong about him. I'll keep it forever. Also sent a congratulatory PM when Rufus accused me, and staying in character, I denied being scum and said Rufus must have been tricked. Only the last day, last decision. Not a word before that, I don't think. Absolutely true. I would have actually gotten him to kill a few townies first, then sold him out. It would have made all the difference in the world. STILL NOT TRUE. I thought it was a perfectly reasonable response to the question, and they were 100% accurate (and naturally within the rules of the game). I didn't even consider it a great defense, just an easy way to answer what was asked. I was as surprised as anyone when it cleared me of suspicion and I was innocent anyway.

I usually convert early, there are very good reasons for it that I will not share with the group because I'm scummy like that. I will give a hint: converting later in the game tends to cause people to do things that appear suspicious, if the town is paying attention. A good example was Sandy in ISM, we converted her and instantly she wasn't suspicious of us anymore. Remember that, Sandy? In this game it also confused the town about the killings that did or didn't happen, so it had another subtle use. The question a host has to ask is the only one you're responsible for, why was he corruptible yet not and how does that effect each side? Poorly for both town and scum, practically heaven for the SK. That's one of those red flags that says "balance problem." We had our own PM without you and I talked to Amy on Steam. Shocking, huh? As for reasoning, I'll put my scum record up against any when it comes to determining the most logical way to do things with the least complication. The only time that doesn't work is when you're also trying to beat a broken mechanic, which is nearly impossible. I've done it before, but not quite as broken as this, which is a shame considering how good the rest of the game was and how it could have been. I've played it out in my head without the conversion and it could have gone to any side, which is how it should have been. It would have complicated things in the middle of the game, but that's how it should have been. With the conversion, it would have taken random luck to end up any other way than it did. Technically, it's none of your business what anyone knows in your game or when, all of your decisions are supposed to have been made already and your influence should be over. The truth is that you want to be so involved that you insert yourself into everything possible from the group scum PM to the writeboard. You can't do that to the town because they don't have a group, but you do it to the dead as well, which encourages them to talk, town or scum alike, and it would be possible for something to accidentally be revealed that way. I dislike the dead board concept. I know you like watching, but is it really a good idea when you end up making unnecessary comments along the way? Some of those comments reinforced the idea that I had been silly to doubt the conversion, something you put a lot of effort into discouraging, in all honesty, both through guilt and insults. I've never minded being insulted, I dislike being guilted tremendously, but ultimately I wouldn't be bothered by either if it hadn't been for the reason it happened. It always was, right from the start. If it had been good, it wouldn't have mattered when or how it was discovered. Instead, it wasted our conversion, gave him too much power, and required far too much deception on your part to be fair to us. At the same time, it was unfair to the town who was not just fighting us, but a SK who knew exactly who to kill to keep things balanced. He also knew exactly who was chasing him because of me, which never would have happened without the conversion being allowed. There was never even a chance for the town to get lucky and have him target the same person as us (or the vig by the time I was influencing him), just massive losses for them nearly every night. It obviously couldn't be undone after it was allowed, that was the wrong time. It never should have been possible in the first place. When we investigated him, we should have been told he couldn't be corrupted, since he really couldn't. Why was it right to lie about that? You were lying before we ever asked a single question. It's like saying we had a naive investigator, yet if we had, the conversion would have just failed, not been a total fake. That's where the whole thing broke down. Again, what we knew or didn't know was none of your business, you shouldn't have even been aware of it, you only had to know the role and how inserting it into the scum would break things for both sides and make a decision never to allow that. That should have been decided before the game started. We investigate and are told corruptible, we convert and are told successful, we're going to believe it, anyone would. Any other result is just wrong. We're scum, it's incredibly rare for us to even get the wrong results of an investigation, but it's unheard of to get a conversion that is a fake. Again, none of your business. Impartial. It's an important word to just keep pounding in your head during games. Sometimes everything goes right and one side hits every mark, it isn't any of your business at that point, no matter how much it annoys you. That's what planning is for, to make sure those things can't happen, and even then, they sometimes do. It's the nature of the game. This game is supposed to be all about setup. You create a scenario, a set of roles and abilities, a guideline for dealing with those and for what will or won't be allowed. Once the game launches, it's hands off. The players control the story from there, choose the direction that things will go in, and are given the chance to determine their own destinies. If everything has been planned properly, whatever they choose to do will have already been considered and the correct response will already exist. Allowing a conversion? Decide who can be converted and who can't by taking the results into account. Would allowing someone to be converted give them or any other group too much advantage or put them at too much disadvantage? Don't allow it. Problem solved. Or better yet, don't let the scum convert the serial killer and he doesn't know who they are, so not just town but also scum die and everyone tries to figure it out. Letting him be converted removed the part where he had to guess who was on which side to know if he was upsetting the balance and ruining his own plans. Again, who the scum are influencing is none of the host's business. It's not his fault that he was given a broken role and there is no way he could have ever admitted it. If you had decided before the game that clues would be given, they still should have been, they would have served a slightly different purpose (showing us that we couldn't actually trust the conversion), but they were definitely needed. The argument over the role being inserted and the subsequent lies didn't invalidate our need to a reasonable chance at knowing that we were up against a SK that was hidden by a fake conversion (that phrase shouldn't even exist in mafia). Even calling him a usurper, it isn't uncommon for the target of the usurping to have some knowledge that such a plot exists. The 5/4 then 5/3/1 flower clue near the end was one you told us you did for the town because they thought there were 4 scum and a SK. To me, it just looked like 3 scum (red), a converted scum (dark pink) and the town (white). I might have taken that differently if dark pink had been blue or yellow or something that wasn't close to red, but it's hard to say now. I won't get into the whole thing about picture clues, that's Quarry's job. This was the first time I ever converted someone and had the host add them to the group PM which included all of our roles clearly spelled out. It was a natural question in that circumstance, no matter what I knew or didn't know. I'm still very annoyed, I always will be and I don't mind admitting that. This had the potential to be an incredible game but was derailed by something that shouldn't have happened, a fake conversion. It still had some incredible moments. Notes to hosts: Shadows and Draggy are married. We can finish each others sentences and read each other like a book. If you've planned properly, it won't matter. Don't ever allow a fake conversion, it is unfair to the scum, probably unfair to the town, and helps the fake far too much. Plan for everything. If you have an action in the game, know how it effects any player it could be used on, and in combination with any action it could be used with. If using it on someone creates too much advantage for one side, don't allow it. Look at the grief it will save you. Butt out of the scum and their planning. It isn't for you to know, so don't insert yourself there and certainly don't try to use that to excuse #2 or #3. It was never your business to begin with. Players can't break mechanics if they aren't already faulty in the first place. So now I'm going to write what I would have written if I could just leave out that ending. Thank you to the host and everyone that played! It was a challenge and one of the first times that I ever felt bad for manipulating people. I don't know why it got to me in this game, but it did. I had to force myself to stay in character, I really didn't think I played that well in the days themselves, all of my best work was by PM. That said, I'm going to give a rare tour of my mafia brain. Don't trip on any of the clutter. I play scum in a very specific way and it's a bit of a mental nightmare because it involves throwing in fake tells at random. Different ones at different times, but always planned with a way to excuse them that makes the person pointing them out look scummy. There are only so many ways to do it. Sometimes, they are things I do when I'm town, which I think has gotten me killed more as town than scum, but it's hard playing town or faking playing town. If you're really town, you either know nothing or you know a lot but can't reveal it until you know who to reveal to, and you never really know who to reveal to. The best tool the scum have is the town, it really is. When you're town and do something stupid, the scum will find a way to use it. Roleclaim on day 1 and the scum will directly or indirectly ride your megablocks until you're dead, because not only do they know you have a role, but you gave them a way to point at you and say "no townie would do that!" Accuse people too early, scum or town, and we will use it against you. If it does turn out to be a townie you accused, all the better, we'll get them lynched and then blame you for it, it's like a 2 for 1 sale on townies. The town wants to trust someone, it needs to trust someone. Until a few people are working together, it's rare for any real results to be made against the scum. You want to trust someone, I'll give you someone to trust. It might be me, it might be one of my allies, but it will be someone you definitely shouldn't trust. I probably won't even roleclaim to do it, instead I'll make you convince me that I can trust you. Once you do, I won't make obvious attempts to influence you, I'm not usually in a position where I need to influence you, I usually just want to know what you know. If I know what you know, I can use that a lot more than just using you directly. There are exceptions to that, naturally. Sorry, Fangy. My final point is one that I know I forget at times, so it's probably hypocritical for me to remind anyone, but it's just a game. Yes, someone is going to manipulate someone. Good and bad decisions are going to be made, and at times, you're going to absolutely hate someone for what they did, but in the end, they were just playing out the role they were given. There's no good reason to hate the players or hold a grudge, save that for the host, he put us all in that position, the evil bastard. If I ever play again, I've already been told I'll be metagamed out instantly, and it certainly wouldn't be the first time. I'd probably be town and it would hurt you in the long run (unless you're scum), that's how it's always gone in that case. Enough from me.

As I said, I have nothing more to say about the previous game, but I will clear this up before we end up believing another ... bit of misinformation. Except that's not even how Baritones 2 ended. Let's review the truth, now. Baritones 2, day 10. The day ends with 3 town and me. You ask for night actions and we submit them. The three townies include their vig (Quarryman) and I am a killer as well. I arrange for their vig to kill my fiance and I'm killing the third, the town investigator. End result: 2 dead townies, 1 vig and me. 1 vs 1 tie goes to the scum, not according to me but according to standard rules everywhere that mafia is played. It was not an automatic 1 vs 3 win (why the hell would that ever happen?), we submitted the actions that took it to 1 vs 1 and then the game concluded naturally. Do you really think the town would have stood for that kind of nonsense? Not a chance. No, instead, Quarry said this: I don't know what game you think you're talking about, but please don't try to blame me for something I never did, never would have suggested, and never saw happen in any game. Lot of that going around lately, huh?

So let's call it a day now that the mystery has been solved and before...

Just for reference, these are the results of our first 2 nights, I'd like anyone to justify the ending based on what we were told: Corruptible. Successful conversion. Recruited another member. The second one appeared in the Scum PM (you know, the only official one through which we were supposed to naje contact with the host) to which the host added Dragonator, our newest scum. Scum. Not neutral hiding in the scum, reading our plans and knowing our abilities and able to use those to backstab us. You don't do that if someone isn't converted, naturally, nor do you let them assume one of our scum positions with an action if they aren't converted. Had he simply come back as incorruptible, I would have had CM kill him the next night, since I already knew he was the SK and that CM was hunting him. That would have given me a very strong position in the town and we would have seen the same results, minus the nonsense after our win. The simple truth is that you either didn't plan for his conversion, or didn't properly consider all of the complications that allowing it would cause, but once he was converted, we had an absolute right to trust that he had actually been converted as we were told. Absolute. Therefore I refuse to accept any ending where the information we were provided as facts from the host are invalidated. Everyone in mafia can lie, except the host. Shame to see so much effort wasted, so I won't by simply ignoring the part that was broken. Congratulations, Scum team and SK on a job well done, despite attempts to interfere with the natural conclusion in a game breaking manner. And that is the last thing I am going to say about any of it.

That's exactly the point, I wasn't manipulating you, you were manipulating us while I was trying to ask the very questions I needed to ask if I was supposed to reasonably figure out that you were lying (which should have never been an issue to begin with). You did everything you could to stop me from doing that and then have the nerve to say that we missed something that we never could have found out until it was over. That's the problem here. I can post it and let them decide, but you would like that even less than my calling it what it is, and you know it. You threw a fit when I was 100% right, and expected me to feel bad for it because of things that had nothing to do with me. That's emotional blackmail. Dragonator is CORRUPTIBLE. Then conversion: Successful. It has nothing to do with what you couldn't tell us and everything to do with what you did tell us. When you use your one conversion to convert someone you're told has been converted and they haven't, that crosses a line, but hey, let's go with that, I take your word on it and move on, then the game ends and it's because of that exact situation that we lose. That seems fair to you? Right, the town got a protector and a commuting bodyguard and various puzzle actions that weren't supposed to effect the game but did and, oh right, that second killer wasn't really on our side at all, but to make it worse, we were told he was. Gosh, that's balanced, how could I miss that? There is no context, that's the whole rule. That's it. We were told he was converted and following that rule, we believed he couldn't betray us. You screwed up, how hard is that to see? That isn't a choice in game mechanics, it's a mistake, he shouldn't have been allowed to be converted and by allowing it, it should have actually happened. Like you changed the rule about penalties for not doing quirks but didn't update that for 3 days and nights and should have killed someone for violating it but didn't. The rules don't mean anything when the host doesn't follow them, so why should we even bother reading them, let alone noticing that something is missing after all of the mistakes that had already happened. You said the flower change was to show the town that there weren't 4 scum and a SK, because you specifically said they thought that. And you made a joke out of them thinking it. Don't try to claim it was for us to catch on that you really had been lying to us when you said he was converted, it wasn't. Like when their own conversion is wasted on someone who will kill them in the end, as opposed to just not allowing the conversion in the first place. It didn't fit the "vanilla townie" qualification you told me it was supposed to, so why allow it at all when it can only megabluck the team who used it? If we hadn't investigated him first, maybe it would be fair, we did and we were told CORRUPTIBLE, meaning he could be turned, not fake turned to stab us in the backs later. You mean the last puzzles, the ones I answered correctly but wasn't allowed to win so you could give the town some more help that didn't end up helping them at all because they'd given up? A point you made considerable fun of in the conclusion and missed the irony of yourself. No. We did. The entire scum team. We played a damn good game. We should have sustained much greater losses early on and kept getting out of them. No one suspected most of us, right to the end. The town did everything I told them that last night. We found and converted the SK, found his intended target so he could kill them, made a sacrifice when necessary to solidify the win and then lost despite reaching the end. The fact that we are cheated out of the win by a ridiculous situation is a shame for all of us and it's a shame for Draggy who I know argued some of this with you before the game even ended. No, we didn't. We were told he was converted. End of story. We had already investigated him, which was the most we could do to determine if he could be trusted. Allowing the conversion means we were supposed to be able to count on that and we couldn't. There was no way we could figure that out given the things you specifically told us. The only mistake we made was listening to you, and if you can't trust the host, what's the point in playing? There are very few things in life that bother me as much as being cheated. You managed to reach a level that only one other this year has reached. I really didn't need it to happen again and I really didn't see it coming. Yay, you. Feel proud, not many people fool me that well, nor do I let it bother me as much as this does, but not for the reason you think. megabluck winning, we got rid of winning when we went to the retarded team win policy, this is about trust and once that's broken, not much else matters.

WE megablocking CONVERTED HIM AND YOU TOLD US IT WAS SUCCESSFUL. If that didn't work, you don't tell us it did, especially when I directly ask and lay out the entire megablocks scenario that you just ended with. I'm done with your games and I'm done with you. You put me through hell for suspecting you were lying when you were, so I assume that all the other things you told me during that were lies as well. You took it from being a game to being real life and used emotional blackmail to make me feel bad for having the exact suspicions I apparently was supposed to have. Burn in hell for that, seriously.

We did, no game allows a converted member to turn on their own team, and Hinck knows it, especially since he provided what he said was your role to us, and I directly called him a liar and he swore he wasn't. Hilarious that he tried to make me feel bad for calling him a liar when he was doing exactly what I said. I'll be honest, I really don't appreciate the browbeating I got from you for calling you a liar when you were lying so blatantly to us, and to use it at the end in this way... lame. That's all, just lame. You're allowed to be lame, but it is the last game of yours that I will play. It was fun, to that point, so thanks for that. Your own rules don't even allow that nonsense. He was converted, killing us is both not accepting the new affiliation and giving us up, so there you go, Scum + Neutral win. End of story. Seriously, right there in your own rules, but nice try.

I bet I'm way out of date. Da Bomb Diggity - Mafia. It's always mafia, isn't it? Baa Bomb Diggity - And now I'm a sheep, but still da bomb, thanks to Hinck.