Tearloch33 Posted June 2, 2011 A few months back, I read an article about an interesting approach at using a 9V train motor with a PF system setup. The topic discussed using 9V powere sections of track (not the entire thing, but hidden sections) to provide a method to actually charge up the power function battery pack while the train was moving. Basically the 9V motor used its pick up to provide energy back into the system to charge the battery during operation, drastically extending the run time. The benefits are: Increased run time of PF trains (like for a train show) No worry about 9V polarity All the pluses of the PF system, with none of the draw backs At the time, I found it interesting, but since I do not own any 9V equipment, I left it at that. But on another thread, others seemed interested in the concept, but I am unable to find the original story. If anyone has tried this, or knows of the original (or comparable) stories on the web, please share or link here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TaltosVT Posted June 2, 2011 If anyone has tried this, or knows of the original (or comparable) stories on the web, please share or link here. Is Thorsten Benter's article on page 46 of RAILBRICKS Issue #7 the one you are thinking about? He wrote up a nicely detailed summary of mixing the two systems. RAILBRICKS Magazine Issues -Elroy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tearloch33 Posted June 2, 2011 Is Thorsten Benter's article on page 46 of RAILBRICKS Issue #7 the one you are thinking about? He wrote up a nicely detailed summary of mixing the two systems. RAILBRICKS Magazine Issues -Elroy Thats for the link. That was the one I was thinking of. An even better read the second time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kyphur Posted June 3, 2011 Can someone who understands the electrical part of this article better than I do explain why the Train Motor must be modified? Is there no way to do this entirely outside of the 9v Motor housing? Or if possible, how about making a power pickup that would work without the 9v train motor and recharge the battery pack? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Toastie Posted June 3, 2011 Can someone who understands the electrical part of this article better than I do explain why the Train Motor must be modified? Is there no way to do this entirely outside of the 9v Motor housing? Or if possible, how about making a power pickup that would work without the 9v train motor and recharge the battery pack? Hi kyphur, no, there is no other way than surgery. The thing is that the (metal) wheels are in contact with some sort of metal wipers inside the motor housing and these are wired to the motor and the 9V terminal. Making a power pickup - that would be IT! Should be possible - but seems to be a major effort. Earth to ME models, Earth to ME models, do you read this? Regards, Thorsten Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kyphur Posted June 3, 2011 no, there is no other way than surgery. The thing is that the (metal) wheels are in contact with some sort of metal wipers inside the motor housing and these are wired to the motor and the 9V terminal. I understand that the metal wheels are the contact. I understand that from there the power feed goes to the motor AND to the connector on top of the 9v Motor housing. If I understand correctly, the modification in the Motor housing disconnects the inbound feed from the motor so the motor now will only get power from the inbound feed on top of the housing? This makes the 9v Motor only good as a PF Train Motor now but with the ability to charge the PF battery pack, right? Is the problem that the differing methods of speed control (PF on/off vs 9v varying resistance) would cause the motor to jump speed when on the charging section of track? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Toastie Posted June 3, 2011 Is the problem that the differing methods of speed control (PF on/off vs 9v varying resistance) would cause the motor to jump speed when on the charging section of track? I guess no. The problem is that the PF system has two separate in and outputs. The PF input is power delivery, lets say 9V DC (as a note, PF works with 12 DC as well). The PF output (IR receiver or LiPo) is switched PWM 9V. PF wants to control the motor via a dedicated power line (the PF cable). So you need wires go from the PF receiver output to the motor. The old 9V system delivers different voltages to the track, picked up by the wipers and directly fed into the motor. The whole track system is powered - more or less. In the PF world, there is constant power delivery to the power feed line, and the PF receiver takes care of the amount of power delivered the motor. Regards, Thorsten Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kyphur Posted June 4, 2011 (edited) I guess no.... Thorsten Now I'm even more confused because you disagreed with me and then agreed... I think... Maybe I was just missing a little of the issue. As built the 9v Connector on the Motor has 4 contacts in 2 pairs that are basically like parallel channels for power (i.e. if the motor has power it is sending power down both channels). The modification to the Motor changes that so the 2 pairs work independently (i.e. one can be powered while the other isn't). This is what allows us to use one to send power in to the Motor and the other to draw power out from the wheels/track. Would that be a correct explanation of the modification? I understand how the 9v track/speed controller uses varying resistance to control the train speed and the PF uses PWM. I'm just trying to understand why we MUST neuter a 9v motor to use this modification. If we could come up with a pick-up that attaches to the motor or actually any wheel set and drags two small contacts over the top of the track then we could add this feature to a pure PF Loco as well. Edited June 4, 2011 by kyphur Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Legoless Posted June 6, 2011 Possibly an ideal solution might be a metal wheel (turned in a lathe) with a coloured ABS insert on the outer face to co-ordinate with other wheels, and with a cross in it to locate a Technic axle. Then a hidden brass pickup could rub against the back surface of the wheel to provide pickup- that should be fairly easy to make and to solder a wire to. These days it is possible to get small ABS parts custom-made using a 3D printer- so to make such wheels would only require a lathe and the right skills, as well as the ability to design the plastic centre cap using CAD- hell it might even be possible to turn that on a lathe if the wheel was of a plain appearance (eg diesel). Maybe Big Ben's Bricks will come up with such a product. An interim solution (if a little crude) might be possible using a pair of sprung sliding shoes in the middle of a bogie, although this would need to be wide enough to maintain contact on both sides when going through curves. Again, should be easy enough (in theory) to make using cut brass sheeting and a pair of pliers, plus some kind of basic springing mechanism. With the new ME track I'd be surprised if some kind of commercial product wasn't in development by someone- after all, 9v motors will start to get rather scarce fairly soon, if they aren't already. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Piranha Posted June 7, 2011 Now I'm even more confused because you disagreed with me and then agreed... I think... Maybe I was just missing a little of the issue. As built the 9v Connector on the Motor has 4 contacts in 2 pairs that are basically like parallel channels for power (i.e. if the motor has power it is sending power down both channels). The modification to the Motor changes that so the 2 pairs work independently (i.e. one can be powered while the other isn't). This is what allows us to use one to send power in to the Motor and the other to draw power out from the wheels/track. Would that be a correct explanation of the modification? I understand how the 9v track/speed controller uses varying resistance to control the train speed and the PF uses PWM. I'm just trying to understand why we MUST neuter a 9v motor to use this modification. If we could come up with a pick-up that attaches to the motor or actually any wheel set and drags two small contacts over the top of the track then we could add this feature to a pure PF Loco as well. I am confused aswell, you run your SF SC with a 9v motor and PF with no internal mods, what is the problem with that? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peterab Posted June 7, 2011 As built the 9v Connector on the Motor has 4 contacts in 2 pairs that are basically like parallel channels for power The problem is they are connected internally in the 9V motor. Without the modification power from the rails will power the motor, meaning you can't control it independently via the PF gear. The modification in effect separates the motor from the pickup circuit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kyphur Posted June 7, 2011 The problem is they are connected internally in the 9V motor. Without the modification power from the rails will power the motor, meaning you can't control it independently via the PF gear. The modification in effect separates the motor from the pickup circuit. Ok, so I do understand what the modification does (even if my wording is a bit confusing). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Piranha Posted June 8, 2011 The problem is they are connected internally in the 9V motor. Without the modification power from the rails will power the motor, meaning you can't control it independently via the PF gear. The modification in effect separates the motor from the pickup circuit. what if you are running on plastic track? Does the inside still need to be modded? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kyphur Posted June 8, 2011 what if you are running on plastic track? Does the inside still need to be modded? yes because this mod reauires a strech of powered tracks for the power to be picked-uo from. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Piranha Posted June 8, 2011 yes because this mod reauires a strech of powered tracks for the power to be picked-uo from. i see, I might just grind down the axle to fit the old side carriage. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kyphur Posted June 8, 2011 i see, I might just grind down the axle to fit the old side carriage. Just to be sure you understand: If you're just using a 9v Motor with PF then there is no modification needed. If you are powering any metal track on your layout and using a 9v motor with PF that 9v Motor should be modified as described in the article to the motor doesn't actually draw power from the track or you'll see the train jump speed when it hits the powered section. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Piranha Posted June 9, 2011 Just to be sure you understand: If you're just using a 9v Motor with PF then there is no modification needed. Oh I see that is what I was planning to do, no metal track just 9v motor w/PF great news Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
