ZENE High Performance RC Brushless Modification QA

[FriedlS]

I use the hubs from @ZENE in my 42077 brushless version, and they work really good! Here are some impressions, i will introduce the complete car in a separate topic soon:

 

cheers, Friedl

[gyenesvi]

2 hours ago, FriedlS said:

I use the hubs from @ZENE in my 42077 brushless version, and they work really good! Here are some impressions

Oh you moved the suspension pivot one stud back to align with the joint? Or just almost (maybe half stud difference)?

But the steering pivot is still not aligned and so the drive axle should be a bit twisted out of the straight line when steered, right? Kind of wiggles as you steer I guess.

[FriedlS]

1 hour ago, gyenesvi said:

Oh you moved the suspension pivot one stud back to align with the joint? Or just almost (maybe half stud difference)?

But the steering pivot is still not aligned and so the drive axle should be a bit twisted out of the straight line when steered, right? Kind of wiggles as you steer I guess.

Yes, but the idea or design is like the rear suspension arms from the daytona 42143. 

You are right, steering may cause problems. But i haven’t build a front driven and steered axlle with these hubs.

[ZENE]

On 1/12/2024 at 8:11 AM, gyenesvi said:

I think the problem with the drive axle into the steered hub is even more complicated. Even if it is redesigned in some way that allows a U-joint to be pushed all the way into the hub so that the pivot point falls in the same line as the steering/suspension pivot, there will be another problem: the U-joint, as it articulates up/down with suspension, will rub the pinhole above/below it, and will eventually be blocked. The only way to solve it is to allow more space there for the U-joint, but that excludes the use of a pinhole (the pin itself would collide with the U-joint). This is exactly the reason why lego hubs are made with CV joints instead of U-joints, and why the latest variants with the new heavy duty large CV-joints don't have a pinhole there, but instead have an integrated towball, because that way there can be space left for the joint. And there's no better solution than that. So unfortunately, this seems to be a half baked product, because the driven case is the one that's really interesting in case of RC and metal parts.

 This problem of misaligned joints is even present in case of RWD sports cars, if I understand correctly (based on the image of @Krzychups)? I guess it only works because the suspension is minimal in those? What I don't get is how the axle lengths work out in that case? Seems like a bit more than half a stud offset to me, that would require axle of some half studs.. Maybe a 1 stud shorter axle works there?

Yes, your reply summarizes it very professionally. It is difficult to solve the problem of using universal joints for front drive and steering. If the front wheels must be used for driving, the u-joint must be cut shorter. This method can solve this problem, but need to try it bit by bit in just a few MM. I think this issue needs further discussion

@Krzychups @Ryokeen fyi

On 1/12/2024 at 11:40 AM, everybrickasculpture said:

I will write more about my experiences with using Zene's brushless kits later, but I will say that I'm pretty happy with the parts so far.  The integrated planetary reduction motor is really quite nice.  I would recommend picking up a kit from them if you're curious.  Here are the three cars that I've finished so far.

 

 

It's cool, bro, especially since I love formula racing. Looking forward to more demonstrations from you, you may consider sharing some videos on YouTube.
(I directly copied and pasted the image here, but I think maybe you have a new account and cannot upload too large images.)

On 1/13/2024 at 2:04 AM, FriedlS said:

I use the hubs from @ZENE in my 42077 brushless version, and they work really good! Here are some impressions, i will introduce the complete car in a separate topic soon:

cheers, Friedl

Great work. Look forward your sharing. If you can make a manual of this set and I think I will buy it, haha.

 

However, I am a little worried that it will not be strong, and the structure will easily deform, resulting in incomplete gear meshing, and then toothing.

[FriedlS]

On 1/14/2024 at 7:02 AM, ZENE said:

Yes, your reply summarizes it very professionally. It is difficult to solve the problem of using universal joints for front drive and steering. If the front wheels must be used for driving, the u-joint must be cut shorter. This method can solve this problem, but need to try it bit by bit in just a few MM. I think this issue needs further discussion

@Krzychups @Ryokeen fyi

It's cool, bro, especially since I love formula racing. Looking forward to more demonstrations from you, you may consider sharing some videos on YouTube.
(I directly copied and pasted the image here, but I think maybe you have a new account and cannot upload too large images.)

Great work. Look forward your sharing. If you can make a manual of this set and I think I will buy it, haha.

 

However, I am a little worried that it will not be strong, and the structure will easily deform, resulting in incomplete gear meshing, and then toothing.

Why are you worried about this? So long it was strong enough:

 

[Ryokeen]

@FriedlS
Well your car is pretty light weight so that helps, but i don't see it deforming. I would just brace the upper gear from the other side just to avoid that it might slip out and is lost on the road :D
And actually having a cheap to repair point of failure is sometimes not a bad idea.

[glowytheglowbug]

Is there a price for one motor? and how much would it cost to get four motors (no ESC no battery, just the motors), also can they drive 3kg of load at least 40km/h?

[Ryokeen]

@glowytheglowbug with their planetary gearing or just the motors ?

Just the motors:

There less than 15bucks

Edited January 19 by Ryokeen

[ZENE]

6 hours ago, glowytheglowbug said:

Is there a price for one motor? and how much would it cost to get four motors (no ESC no battery, just the motors), also can they drive 3kg of load at least 40km/h?

Our motor is connected to a planetary gearbox, which is customized and designed. Reduction gearbox (i) is 1:4

[glowytheglowbug]

2 hours ago, ZENE said:

Our motor is connected to a planetary gearbox, which is customized and designed. Reduction gearbox (i) is 1:4

how much is motor with gearbox? and whats the output torque? (and rpm)

Edited January 19 by glowytheglowbug

[Ryokeen]

Without the 1:4 reduction max rpm(no load) should be around 45.000 for 3s(4.2v per cell) and for 2s 30.000 rpm.

About torque, might be enough after the differential downgear, but consider that those motors are mostly for 1:16 cars but with less downgearing.
But they claime to be able to move a Daytona at around 40-60km/h

Edited January 20 by Ryokeen

[glowytheglowbug]

12 hours ago, Ryokeen said:

With the 1:4 reduction max rpm(no load) should be around 45.000 for 3s(4.2v per cell) and for 2s 30.000 rpm.

About torque, might be enough after the differential downgear, but consider that those motors are mostly for 1:16 cars but with less downgearing.
But they claime to be able to move a Daytona at around 40-60km/h

ah interesting, my plan is to get four of them and have one motor per wheel to have independent control of each wheel speed

[Ryokeen]

@glowytheglowbug Ah lol my bad, the rpms are without the reduction, somehow the "out" was missing. But well it's always kv*Volt. They use a 3600kv motor * ~8.2v(almost fully charged 2 cell lipo) =~ 30.000 rpm.

If you want to get 4 of them, one per wheel, keep in mind that no motor has exactly the same rpm as another for the same voltage. Might not be an issue with a gyro or even without one, but one thing to keep in mind.
Also you would either need 4 esc for independant controll and you need a lipo that can provide enough current.

Maybe that helps you:
Hy Bricks in wheel brushless

Might be the better sollution as you get rid of the 4 drivetrains and get a bearing wheelhub aswell.

[glowytheglowbug]

On 1/20/2024 at 10:08 AM, Ryokeen said:

@glowytheglowbug Ah lol my bad, the rpms are without the reduction, somehow the "out" was missing. But well it's always kv*Volt. They use a 3600kv motor * ~8.2v(almost fully charged 2 cell lipo) =~ 30.000 rpm.

If you want to get 4 of them, one per wheel, keep in mind that no motor has exactly the same rpm as another for the same voltage. Might not be an issue with a gyro or even without one, but one thing to keep in mind.
Also you would either need 4 esc for independant controll and you need a lipo that can provide enough current.

Maybe that helps you:
Hy Bricks in wheel brushless

Might be the better sollution as you get rid of the 4 drivetrains and get a bearing wheelhub aswell.

 

Soo about 7.5k rpm? thats pretty decent

 

A gyro would be used and a lidar would be for autonomous racing and controlled by a Raspberry Pi.

Yes main idea is getting rid of the drivetrains, my idea is mounting the wheels directly to the gearbox, do you think a 1/8 or 1/10 scale car using 4 of those motors can reach above 40km/h?

How much is each wheel with a gearbox
And how much is each esc (I only need to control 1 motor per esc)

Also, can a wheel be mounted on the motor/gearbox? directly on the shaft so there's no need for bearings, I will be using metal Lego parts for the bottom chassis for weight and strength and normal plastic for the body.


 

Do you have a measurement of the output shaft, I might be able to find a non-lego wheel that directly connects to it.
Also for the price of the brushless motors with gearbox, how much would getting four of the motors with gearbox cost
and how much would adding ESc's to control the motors cost?

Edited January 22 by glowytheglowbug

[Ryokeen]

@glowytheglowbug with one motor per wheel ? easy 40km/h. Just an example i use a 3250kv on a 2S LiPo, Gear reduction of 1:5 and (according to zene) 1.65:1 on the diff, that makes around 3k rpm on the wheels. With 100mm Wheels i get easily to around 50km/h.
So 7.5k rpm even on regular RC 60mm wheels will get you (theoretically) up to 80km/h.

But if you want to get rid of the drivetrains, where would be a gearbox ? or do you mean the gear reduction on the zene motors ? If so, that might get problematic if you want(and you will need it) suspension and ofc steering.
As said the zene hubs have a massive pivot offset for the u-joints and mounting a motor behind a wheel hub might not work either as there isn't enough space to fit the motor between suspension arms.

Mounting a wheel directly on the zene gearbox won't work as you could only mount it on the driven axle, so only axle to axle hole clutch power holds it.

From the motor specs it's a 2.3mm thick shaft, doubt you'll find bigger wheels to mount on that thin shaft.

[glowytheglowbug]

4 minutes ago, Ryokeen said:

 

i meant gear reduction on zene motors yes, their gearbox on the end of the motors connects to Lego pins I think

was more talking about the shaft output on the gearbox
there will be wishbone suspension with toggleable pendulum suspension that I will be designing
the motors would be unsprung weight and directly connected to the gearbox/gear reduction which would connect directly to the wheel and not have to deal with cv joints or friction problems, not sure how big a wheel I need for 3-4kg

 

 

[Ryokeen]

@glowytheglowbug

But without any form of joints, you would have to "steer" the motors with a wheel. Can't imagine where you would put the pivot point for steering and the suspension considering that the motor+gearbox is at least 9-10 studs long.
And as i said, the gearbox only got an axle hole, so you need some sort of wheelhub cause i doubt that you can access the metal shaft on which the axlehole of the gearbox sits. And even then, i would not use that as a direct wheel mount.
As the axle/shaft is most likly not that much thicker as the motor shaft, putting significant load might damage the bearings and the gearbox quite fast.

[glowytheglowbug]

17 minutes ago, Ryokeen said:

@glowytheglowbug

But without any form of joints, you would have to "steer" the motors with a wheel. Can't imagine where you would put the pivot point for steering and the suspension considering that the motor+gearbox is at least 9-10 studs long.
And as i said, the gearbox only got an axle hole, so you need some sort of wheelhub cause i doubt that you can access the metal shaft on which the axlehole of the gearbox sits. And even then, i would not use that as a direct wheel mount.
As the axle/shaft is most likly not that much thicker as the motor shaft, putting significant load might damage the bearings and the gearbox quite fast.

the holes on the gearbox has two pins I think
sooo the plan would be to use their wheel hubs instead?

[Ryokeen]

14 hours ago, glowytheglowbug said:

the holes on the gearbox has two pins I think

Don't get you. Their motor/gearbox combo has some pinholes for mounting the motor on a chassis, but the axlehole is the only thing that is driven by the motor and will spin. So that axlehole is your only chance to directly mount a wheel.
It's like mounting a Wheel just with an Axle to an PF-L Motor, it won't be mounted long :D

14 hours ago, glowytheglowbug said:

sooo the plan would be to use their wheel hubs instead?

Or like in the video from hy bricks that i posted, use lower kv motors(other form factor, flatter and i think called outrunner motors) and don't do any downgearing. With 4 of them you will still have plenty of torque and speed.

[glowytheglowbug]

6 hours ago, Ryokeen said:

Don't get you. Their motor/gearbox combo has some pinholes for mounting the motor on a chassis, but the axlehole is the only thing that is driven by the motor and will spin. So that axlehole is your only chance to directly mount a wheel.
It's like mounting a Wheel just with an Axle to an PF-L Motor, it won't be mounted long :D

Or like in the video from hy bricks that i posted, use lower kv motors(other form factor, flatter and i think called outrunner motors) and don't do any downgearing. With 4 of them you will still have plenty of torque and speed.

Do you happen to have some outrunner motor links on Aliexpress or Amazon? I have been searching but only found drones :/

[Ryokeen]

@glowytheglowbug most of the outrunner motors are for drones or planes as their nature(outside spinning parts) isn't really suited for vehicles, or if there is not enought space to fit a gearbox. But rpm wise they are also kV rated, means even a 700kv motor will get you ~5.500 rpm. Torque is mostly even higher for outrunners

[glowytheglowbug]

8 minutes ago, Ryokeen said:

@glowytheglowbug most of the outrunner motors are for drones or planes as their nature(outside spinning parts) isn't really suited for vehicles, or if there is not enought space to fit a gearbox. But rpm wise they are also kV rated, means even a 700kv motor will get you ~5.500 rpm. Torque is mostly even higher for outrunners

I mean I have been searching for a brushless motor to mount to a car with sufficient torque to drive a 3-4kg build above 40 km/H but can't find any. i also tried searching for ones with gearbox, so far this is the only one I found that seems tested and decent. if you have any links, could you send them to me?

[ZENE]

On 1/23/2024 at 9:00 AM, glowytheglowbug said:

I mean I have been searching for a brushless motor to mount to a car with sufficient torque to drive a 3-4kg build above 40 km/H but can't find any. i also tried searching for ones with gearbox, so far this is the only one I found that seems tested and decent. if you have any links, could you send them to me?

The 42143 we use with one motor weighs about 3kg when assembled, the speed can reach more than 50km/hr, and the top speed has reached 60km/hr+.

So for your goal I think two motors are enough. Just as mentioned above by @Ryokeen, how to make multiple motors cooperate and distribute power well needs to be considered.

[glowytheglowbug]

15 hours ago, ZENE said:

The 42143 we use with one motor weighs about 3kg when assembled, the speed can reach more than 50km/hr, and the top speed has reached 60km/hr+.

So for your goal I think two motors are enough. Just as mentioned above by @Ryokeen, how to make multiple motors cooperate and distribute power well needs to be considered.

ah alright, im not going to have any gearing though so that might affect some things, wheel diameter will probably range from 5 to 10cm

[ZENE]

It looks like this post has gone silent. I hope to know how some of my friends have used it recently, and I look forward to more creative sharing from you.