Heroica: Glory Amongst The Stars - Class Development Discussion

[Waterbrick Down]

Part of the ongoing development of Heroica: Glory Amongst The Stars has been the creation of the class system. While some folks behind the scenes have been working to rough out the designs, we figured we'd open the discussion up to the general group for input. A few things that are somewhat set in stone:

• Classes have a less impactful role in Heroica: Glory Amongst The Stars than they did in Heroica 1.0, the effectiveness of a character should be more derived from their statistics. Classes should provide moderate upgrades, but should focus more upon expanding a character's options.
• Classes should provide a niche to a particular playstyle and evoke a certain feel of the archtype
• Classes should be composed of two "traits" (passive bonuses) and one "action" (active decision that can be made in combat)
• Classes will have proficiency requirements and a character can only have one "active" class at a time
• Classes can be switched between missions as long as proficiency requirements are met
• Classes should avoid being mechanically complex, the game is still meant to be simple and the fewer times a player/Mission Master have to reference a class sheet every time they run a battle the better.

Current working doc (latest version)

Assassin
(Acrobatics, Artillery, Intimidation, or Stealth min 5)
 - Mark (Trait) - Weapon Checks ignore line-of-sight obstacles
 - Deadeye (Trait) - You may make an Attack without range penalties (# Skill) times per Mission
- Ambush (Action) - Add (# Stealth) dice to next Weapon Check (stackable, ignores dice pool minimum)

Ætherdiver
(Arcana, Coding, Performance, or Technology min 5)
 - Expert Diver (Trait) - Coding Proficiency Checks are Lucky
 - System Exploit (Trait) - Choose 1 spellcasting Proficiency. You may use your Coding Proficiency in its place when casting spells.
 - Up From the Deep (Action) - You may spend Spirit to reduce the DC of Checks to recall knowledge. When Ætherdiving you may also do this for checks to learn new information.

Battlemage
(Arcana, Long Range Weapons, Melee Weapons, or Nature min 5)
 - Eldritch Vigor (Trait) - You gain additional Vitality = to ½ current Spirit
 - Infused Strike (Trait) - When you cast a spell, your next attack gains +# die equal to the Spirit you spent.
 - Transmuter’s Advantage (Action) - You may change the Type of your Armor if you have more than ½ max Spirit.

Berserker
(Athletics, Intimidation, Melee Weapons, or Survival min 5)
 - Unbreakable (Trait) - The first time in battle your Vitality is reduced to 0, it’s instead reduced to 1
 - Relentless (Trait) - Weapon Checks count 3’s as successes when adjacent to multiple enemies.
 - Cleave (Action) - Make a Weapon Proficiency Check vs. two adjacent targets’ combined Skill. On a win deal 2x # Weapon mod in damage to both targets.

Crusader
(Athletics, Melee Weapons, Persuasion, or Religion min 5)
- Indomitable Spirit (Trait) - You are immune to Frightened
- Assuaging Aura (Trait) - Adjacent allies have a bonus to their Vitality equal to (½# Religion Proficiency)
- Smite (Action) - Add (# Religion) dice to next Weapon Check (stackable, ignores dice pool minimum)

Conjurer
(Deception, Performance, Persuasion, or Sleight of Hand min 5)
 - A Knack for This (Trait) - Non-spell Arcana/Nature/Occult/Religion Checks are Lucky
 - Razzmatazz (Trait) - When you succeed a Weapon Check, you have a ½ chance to deal a random negative effect.
 - Supernatural Legerdemain (Action) - Make a Sleight of Hand Check vs. target’s Spirit. On a win, the target spends the difference in Spirit to cast one of their spells on a target of your choice.

Detective
(Insight, Intimidation, Perception, or Persuasion min 5)
 - Little Gray Cells (Trait) - +1 success to Insight and Perception Proficiency Checks
 - Eliminate the Impossible (Trait) - You may ask the MM for hints (# Smarts) times per Mission
 - Just One More Thing (Action) - Add Insight/Perception Proficiency to next Intimidation/Persuasion Check

Empath
(Deception, Insight, Occult, or Perception min 5)
 - In The Mind’s Eye (Trait) - Your Perception Checks are no longer limited by your physical senses.
 - Strange Minds Think Alike (Trait) - You may hold a telepathic conversation with someone (# Smarts) times per mission.
 - Penny For Your Thoughts (Action) - Make an Insight Check vs. target’s Smarts. On a win, you know what they’re currently thinking. On a loss, the target is aware of your attempt.

Engineer
(Artillery, Engineering, Explosives, or Technology min 5)
 - Ingenuitive Spirit (Trait) - Engineering Proficiency Checks are Lucky
 - Tinkering Hands (Trait) - You may equip a second Tool in place of your Weapon or Armor
 - Upgrade (Action) - Make an Engineering Check vs. an Ally’s Weapon mod. On a win, increase the Weapon’s mod until the end of combat.

Espatier
(Coding, Explosives, Piloting, or Technology min 5)
 - Mobile Combatant (Trait) - You are immune to Restrained
 - Semper Fi (Trait) - May target 2 allies when taking the Defend Action
 - Suppressing Fire (Action) - Make a Weapon Proficiency Check vs. target’s Skill. On a win, the target cannot perform Special Actions.

Guardian
(Athletics, Intimidation, Persuasion, or Short Range Weapons min 5)
 - Defensive (Trait) - Minimum Strength requirements for Armor are 1 less.
 - Protective (Trait) - + (# Armor mod) Skill die added when taking the Defend Action
 - Interpose (Action) - Swap places with an adjacent target

Gunslinger
(Intimidation, Short Range Weapons, Sleight of Hand, or Survival min 5)
 - Quickdraw (Trait) - You add your Short Range Weapons Proficiency to Initiative Checks
 - Snap Shot (Trait) - You may make an Attack as a Special Action (# Skill) times per Mission
 - Fan the Hammer (Action) - Make a Weapon Proficiency Check against up to three connected squares. Your Weapon Proficiency for the Check is ½.

Hacker
(Coding, Engineering, Sleight-of-Hand, or Technology min 5)
 - Computational Expertise (Trait) - +1 success to Coding and Technology Proficiency Checks
 - Vulnerable Circuitry (Trait) - +1 die when attacking mechanical enemies
 - Cyber Swipe (Action) - Make a Technology Check vs. mechanical (MM discrecion) target’s Smarts. On a win, the target’s next Check loses the difference in successes.

Hermit
(Insight, Medicine, Nature, or Religion min 5)
 - Planetary Communion (Trait) - Nature Proficiency Checks are Lucky
 - Sky, Sea, and Stone (Trait) - You may converse intelligibly with animals, plants, and the landscape (# Spirit) times per Mission
 - Entangle (Action) - Make an empty square within (# Nature) squares unpassable for (# Nature) Combat Rounds.

Illusionist
(Arcana, Deception, Occult, or Sleight of Hand min 5)
 - Mystic Deceiver (Trait) - Deception Proficiency Checks are Lucky
 - Integrated Illusions (Trait) - When you cast Alter Form, Illusory Clone, Obfuscate, or Photonic Modulation, you may cast another spell from that list at the same time.
 - Dispel Illusion (Action) - If any of the spells listed above is active, make an opposed Spirit Check vs. the caster. On a win, the spell ends early.

Mage
(Arcana, Insight, Occult, or Perception min 5)
 - Mystic Concentration (Trait) - Arcana Proficiency Checks are Lucky
 - Arcane Memorization (Trait) - Know 1 additional spell
 - Magical Redirection (Action) - You may change the target of a spell if it’s duration hasn’t expired.

Martial Artist
(Acrobatics, Athletics, Insight, or Religion min 5)
 - Master of the Warlike Art (Trait) - You may make a number of additional unarmed Weapon Checks equal to ½ current Spirit
 - Flow like Water (Trait) - You may move up to ½ Velocity as part of a Weapon Check if above ½ Spirit
 - Purity of Mind and Body (Action) - You may remove a Status Effect on yourself (Special Action if above ½ max Spirit)

Medic
(Insight, Medicine, Perception, or Technology min 5)
 - Restoring Hands (Trait) - Healing items generate 2x # Medicine Proficiency Vitality
 - Proper Dosage (Trait) - ½ chance a healing Consumable is not used up upon activation.
 - Combat Triage (Action) - Make a Medicine Check on an adjacent ally. Ally receives Vitality = # successes. An ally can benefit from this feature only once per battle.

Outlander
(Long Range Weapons, Nature, Perception, or Survival min 5)
 - Canny (Trait) - +1 success to Perception and Survival Proficiency Checks
 - Tough (Trait) - +1 Skill die if attacked multiple times per round
 - Focused (Action) - All rolls for your next Weapon Check become automatic successes.

Priest
(Insight, Medicine, Persuasion, or Religion min 5)
 - Divine Communion (Trait) - Religion Proficiency Checks are Lucky
 - Blessing of the Gods (Trait) - Adjacent allies receive +1 when regaining Vitality
 - Compelling Power (Action) - Make a Religion Check vs. all unholy (MM discrecion) targets’ Smarts. Each target that fails is either Blinded, Frightened, Restrained, or Silenced.

Prosecutor
(Culture, Intimidation, Occult, or Religion min 5)
 - Incorruptible (Trait) - You are immune to Enamored
 - Incisive (Trait) - Deception Checks against you are Unlucky
 - Imposing (Action) - Make an Intimidation Check vs. target’s Spirit. On a win the target is Silenced.

Pugilist
(Athletics, Insight, Perception or Survival min 5)
 - Bare-knuckle Boxer (Trait) - Unarmed Weapon Checks gain (½# Strength) successes.
 - Down, But Not Out (Trait) - Once per battle, when you stabilize, heal Vitality equal to (½# Strength). 
 - Size Up (Action) - Choose one target, your next successful Melee attack vs. them deals Stunned

Scholar
(Coding, Culture, Insight, or Persuasion min 5)
 - Eye for Detail (Trait) - Insight Proficiency Checks are Lucky
 - Well Read (Trait) - You may swap any non-Weapon Proficiency for another you do not have (# Smarts) times per Mission.
 - Research (Action) - Copy 1 Proficiency from a target until the end of the Mission. You may copy up to (# Smarts) Proficiencies in this manner.

Scoundrel
(Acrobatics, Deception, Sleight of Hand, or Stealth min 5)
 - Lightfoot (Trait) - Stealth Proficiency Checks are Lucky
 - Backstab (Trait) - Weapon Checks count 3’s as successes when attacking a target adjacent to an ally
 - Pickpocket (Action) - Make a Sleight-of-Hand Check vs. an adjacent target's Perception. On a win, steal one item from the target's inventory. On a loss, the target is aware of your attempt.

Skald
(Arcana, Deception, Performance, or Persuasion min 5) 
 - Jack-of-all-Trades (Trait) - +1 die to all Proficiency Checks
 - Encouraging Words (Trait) - May target 2 allies when taking the Rally Action
 - Mesmerize (Action) - Make a Performance Check vs. a target’s Smarts. On a win, the target’s next Check is Unlucky

Summoner
(Intimidation, Nature, Occult, or Persuasion min 5)
 - From Many Spheres (Trait) - When you cast Spirit Ally, you may choose the damage type of your Familliar’s Weapon.
 - Empowered Ally (Trait) - When you cast Spirit Ally, you add (# Spirit) to the Spell’s duration.
 - We Still Need You (Action) - You may spend Spirit to heal your Familiar (= #spent)

Swashbuckler
(Acrobatics, Melee Weapons, Performance, or Sleight of Hand min 5)
 - Parry (Trait) - When you have no Armor, Armor Checks use your Weapon’s mod and type.
 - Riposte (Trait) - When an adjacent enemy misses you with an Attack, you make an Opportunistic Attack against them.
 - Challenge (Action) - Make a Performance Check vs. target’s Smarts. On a win, they can only attack you until attacked by one of your allies.

Warlock
(Arcana, Deception, Occult, or Sleight-of-Hand min 5)
 - Esoteric Studies (Trait) - Occult Proficiency Checks are Lucky
 - Enigmatic Aid (Trait) - +1 die to Checks to avoid negative effects
 - Call from Beyond (Action) - Make an Occult Check vs. mortal (MM discrecion) target’s Smarts. On a win, target swaps one Attribute with you for the next Round.

Warrior
(Artillery, Long Range Weapons, Melee Weapons, or Short Range Weapons min 5)
 - Weapon Adept (Trait) - May swap Weapons as part of an Attack Action
 - Strategic Mind (Trait) - + (# Armor mod) Skill die added when taking the Rally Action
 - Tactical Advantage (Action) - Choose one target. Next round all attacks against them count 3’s as successes.

Witch
(Culture, Medicine, Nature, or Occult min 5)
 - Witch’s Familiar (Trait) - You gain a permanent Lesser Familiar. You may perceive the world through its senses at will.*
 - Eye of Newt (Trait) - Consumables that roll for effect use the highest possible result, and Consumables with a duration are doubled.
 - Hex (Action) - Make a target’s next Check of 1 Attribute Unlucky.

*Permanent Familiars are class features. You do not keep them if you replace the class that grants them. The ‘permanent’ means that they do not have a duration ala the ones summoned by Spirit Ally.

Early Concept Classes:

Alchemist
(Explosives, Medicine, Nature, or Technology min 5)
- Well Stocked Lab (Trait) - Consumables do not take up inventory slots
- Careful Application (Trait) - ½ chance a non-healing Consumable is not used up on activation.
- Inoculation (Action) - Make one adjacent ally immune to all negative effects. An ally can only benefit from this feature once per battle.

Grenadier
(Artillery, Explosives, Perception, or Sleight of Hand min 5)
- Precision Charge (Trait) - Your Grenades only deal ½ damage to allies caught in the blast radius.
- Jury Rigger (Trait) - You may craft Grenades on Missions as long as you have the credits.
- Prime the Powder (Action) - You may upgrade one of a Grenade’s attributes to the next tier (once per Grenade)

Fighter Ace
(Artillery, Engineering, Piloting, or Technology min 5)
 - Dogfighter (Trait) - Piloting Proficiency Checks are Lucky
 - Ranging Fire (Trait) - When you fail a Weapon Check, the successes are added to your next attack against the same target.
 - Stressful Maneuver (Action) - You may spend Vitality to double a Vehicle’s Movement as a Special Action

Courier
(Deception, Engineering, Piloting, or Survival min 5)
 - I’ve Been Around (Trait) - +1 success to Engineering and Survival Proficiency Checks
 - I Got This (Trait) - You may make any Check Lucky (# Skill) times per Mission
 - She’s Got it Where it Counts (Action) - Make an Engineering Check vs. 1 of a Vehicle’s stats. On a win, add ½ # Engineering to that stat until the end of combat.

Starwright
(Arcana, Nature, Piloting, or Technology min 5)
 - Ersatz Spacesuit (Trait) - When you cast Atmosphere Generation* and Gravimetric Propulsion on the same target, you add (# Spirit) to both their durations.
 - Zero-G Training (Trait) - When you cast Atmosphere Generation, Gravimetric Propulsion, Telekinesis*, or Warding Bond, you may cast another spell from that list at the same time
 - Starmap (Action) - You may spend Spirit to learn your location relative to a landmark of your choice

Inheritor
(Arcana, Nature, Occult, or Religion min 5)
 - Blood Magic (Trait) - You gain additional Spirit = to ½ current Vitality
 - Rightful Inheritance (Trait) - Choose one spellcasting Proficiency, all associated spells have -1 Spirit cost (min 1)
 - Royal Stature (Action) - Make an opposed Spirit Check vs. target. On a win, the target is Enamored with you

Officer
(Culture, Intimidation, Piloting, or Short Range Weapons min 5)
 - Parade Ground Voice (Trait) - You may Rally non-adjacent allies
 - Focus Fire (Trait) - Allied Weapon Checks are Lucky if someone you Rally attacks the same target.
 - Reposition (Action) - Move one ally up to ½ their Velocity, counts as a Dash Action

Oracle
(Insight, Occult, Perception, or Religion min 5)
 - Saw That Coming (Trait) - Spells and Attacks against you treat 4’s as failures
 - Astrologian (Trait) - You may have visions of possible future events (# Spirit) times per Mission.
 - Written in the Stars (Action) - Make 1 check automatically succeed or fail. You may affect up to (# Spirit) checks in this manner.

Shadowdancer
(Deception, Performance, Sleight of Hand, or Stealth min 5)
 - Ghost (Trait) - +1 success to Deception and Stealth Proficiency Checks
 - Hard to Pin Down (Trait) - You add your Stealth Proficiency to Defense Checks
 - Actually, I’m Behind You (Action) - Make a Deception Check vs. target’s Perception. On a win, you instantly move to a space adjacent to the target and are unseen until the end of your next turn. On a loss, you move (# Velocity - # squares moved) squares towards the target.

Verdant Knight
(Athletics, Insight, Nature, or Survival min 5)
 - Strength of the Oak (Trait) - You gain additional Strength equal to ½ #Spirit
 - Warden’s Aura (Trait) - Adjacent Allies take ½ damage from Attacks, you take the remaining damage.
 - Thorns of the Rose (Action) - Choose an adjacent Ally. When next they take damage, the attacker takes Kinetic damage = damage dealt (Special Action if above ½ max Spirit)

Veteran
(Athletics, Explosives, Long Range Weapons, or Short Range Weapons min 5)
 - Rank and File (Trait) - You may Defend a target if you are both Adjacent to the same ally
 - Close-quarter Combatant (Trait) - You may treat any Weapon as a Standard Melee Kinetic Weapon
 - Forced Movement (Action) - Make a Weapon Proficiency Check vs. target’s Skill. On a win, the target must use their next action to Dash. An enemy can only suffer from this feature once per battle.
 

[Khorne]

That's a lot of interesting classes. The list is rather long, though. Perhaps these could be split up between battlefield roles? E.g. a 'support' category with all classes that fall under this combat role, 'rogue/stealth', 'mage', ... It would making searching for a specific class a bit easier?

How were the classes generated? Where you going for a certain number of classes or did they grow organically, based on the amount of proficiencies?

I like the fluid system of being able to easily switch.

[Duvors]

3 hours ago, Khorne said:

That's a lot of interesting classes. The list is rather long, though. Perhaps these could be split up between battlefield roles? E.g. a 'support' category with all classes that fall under this combat role, 'rogue/stealth', 'mage', ... It would making searching for a specific class a bit easier?

How were the classes generated? Where you going for a certain number of classes or did they grow organically, based on the amount of proficiencies?

Splitting them up would be nice, though we'd have to make some decisions about which category to put each into, a lot of these fall into multiple categories.

The class creation process essentially boils down to 'here's a cool idea, can we make it work without making it redundant with the other classes'. I've just noticed that the second Traits of both the Blade Sage and Gunslinger are essentially worse versions of the Warrior's first one, which is kind of bad.

It's funny you should mention proficiencies, as the way those are distributed among the classes has been bothering me for a while. To explain, here's a list of all the proficiencies and the number of classes they give access to:

• Acrobatics - 6
• Arcana - 6
• Artillery - 3
• Athletics - 8
• Coding - 3
• Culture - 2
• Deception - 5
• Engineering - 4
• Explosives - 2
• Insight - 8
• Intimidation - 6
• Long Range Weapons - 4
• Medicine - 7
• Melee Weapons - 6
• Nature - 8
• Occult - 7
• Perception - 7
• Performance - 5
• Persuasion - 7
• Piloting - 1
• Religion - 8
• Short Range Weapons - 3
• Sleight of Hand - 5
• Stealth - 4
• Survival - 7
• Technology - 6

As you can see, the numbers are all over the place, and there are clear winners and losers.

[Waterbrick Down]

15 hours ago, Khorne said:

That's a lot of interesting classes. The list is rather long, though. Perhaps these could be split up between battlefield roles? E.g. a 'support' category with all classes that fall under this combat role, 'rogue/stealth', 'mage', ... It would making searching for a specific class a bit easier?

How were the classes generated? Where you going for a certain number of classes or did they grow organically, based on the amount of proficiencies?

I like the fluid system of being able to easily switch.

Point taken concerning organization and making it easier so people don't have to read through each class if they're simply looking to fill more of a certain role. Though Duvor's point is accurate, there's a lot of overlap in certain roles amongst the classes.

Looking at the distribution of proficiencies amongst the current classes is telling.  The current list was generated more by jotting down archetypes and then designing mechanical niches to embody the "feel" of the class.

Fluidity is intentional. Just as with character creation allowing for people to mix up their stats at will between missions, the idea behind flexible classes was to ensure that no one felt locked into a role they didn't enjoy after trying it.

[Duvors]

I've made a number of minor changes to the google document this is taken from. Mostly to create a unified syntax, fix a few things, and change a few class requirements/abilities.

[Khorne]

On 6/19/2021 at 10:38 PM, Duvors said:

Splitting them up would be nice, though we'd have to make some decisions about which category to put each into, a lot of these fall into multiple categories.

The class creation process essentially boils down to 'here's a cool idea, can we make it work without making it redundant with the other classes'. I've just noticed that the second Traits of both the Blade Sage and Gunslinger are essentially worse versions of the Warrior's first one, which is kind of bad.

It's funny you should mention proficiencies, as the way those are distributed among the classes has been bothering me for a while. To explain, here's a list of all the proficiencies and the number of classes they give access to:

I figured as much that it was more of a "what's cool/what might work"-process right now, instead of something already balanced. Some classes gave me the impression of "hmmm, this feels similar to something else already. Is this really needed?"

23 hours ago, Waterbrick Down said:

Point taken concerning organization and making it easier so people don't have to read through each class if they're simply looking to fill more of a certain role. Though Duvor's point is accurate, there's a lot of overlap in certain roles amongst the classes.

Looking at the distribution of proficiencies amongst the current classes is telling.  The current list was generated more by jotting down archetypes and then designing mechanical niches to embody the "feel" of the class.

Fluidity is intentional. Just as with character creation allowing for people to mix up their stats at will between missions, the idea behind flexible classes was to ensure that no one felt locked into a role they didn't enjoy after trying it.

I have no idea how much classes D&D has. Is there a fixed number? Perhaps we should settle on a fixed number too and mix some of the classes you already have right now or remove some of the similar ones.

To me, as an RPG "noob", I'd like to be able to more easily view what's available and what type a certain class is, than having to scroll through 20+ classes and having a hard time comparing them.

That being said, I obviously do appreciate all of the effort that went into this so far and in no way is it my intention to disrespect your work. Just giving my 2 cents. To make it more workable, I believe we have to funnel these classes into a smaller amount.  On the other hand though, maybe that's just me and other like this amount of choices?

[Duvors]

11 minutes ago, Khorne said:

I figured as much that it was more of a "what's cool/what might work"-process right now, instead of something already balanced. Some classes gave me the impression of "hmmm, this feels similar to something else already. Is this really needed?"

Would you mind naming some of the classes that strike you as redundant? It can be a bit difficult for us who are intimately involved to pick them out.

[Waterbrick Down]

9 hours ago, Khorne said:

I figured as much that it was more of a "what's cool/what might work"-process right now, instead of something already balanced. Some classes gave me the impression of "hmmm, this feels similar to something else already. Is this really needed?"

I have no idea how much classes D&D has. Is there a fixed number? Perhaps we should settle on a fixed number too and mix some of the classes you already have right now or remove some of the similar ones.

To me, as an RPG "noob", I'd like to be able to more easily view what's available and what type a certain class is, than having to scroll through 20+ classes and having a hard time comparing them.

That being said, I obviously do appreciate all of the effort that went into this so far and in no way is it my intention to disrespect your work. Just giving my 2 cents. To make it more workable, I believe we have to funnel these classes into a smaller amount.  On the other hand though, maybe that's just me and other like this amount of choices?

Current 5th Edition D&D has 12 classes, but each has a number of subclasses for a grand total of 117, so we're small in comparison.  Right now the limiting factor of classes is archetype, you want to play a wizard, we've got one, you want to play a knight, sure. Admittedly this appeals more to those players who want their character to "feel" a certain way and the mechanics come secondary. It doesn't do a whole lot for players who want to play a certain mechanical role (i.e. the Tank, the DPS, the Support, the Controller). It'd be cool to come up with a combination of these two in order to appeal to both types of players. D&D 4th edition sort of did this by dividing roles and "power sources" amongst their classes. So you had roles (Leader, Striker, Defender, Controller) and then you had the sources (Arcane, Divine, Martial, Primal, Psionic), so a Rogue would be a martial striker, while a barbarian would be a primal striker. The downside to this setup is sometime folks want to play a class, but not that specific role. Take for example Fighters, typically they are classified as martial defenders, but perhaps you want to be more of an offense type role but don't want to go down the route of being a sneaky rogue, with the 4e system you're sort of stuck. So the trick will be providing options that are intuitive without requiring reading through every class, but at the same time providing flexibility for those that want a certain "feel" but not necessarily the associated mechanics.

[Duvors]

On thinking abut it, I've removed the Tandem Fighter and Verdant Knight classes from the google document as I didn't like either of them. On that note, @Waterbrick Down, perhaps it would be a good idea to have a non-editable link to the document in order to give people easy access to the latest versions?

[Khorne]

On 6/21/2021 at 9:15 AM, Duvors said:

Would you mind naming some of the classes that strike you as redundant? It can be a bit difficult for us who are intimately involved to pick them out.

I haven't had the time to do this, but I'll try to look into it over the weekend.

On 6/21/2021 at 6:50 PM, Waterbrick Down said:

Current 5th Edition D&D has 12 classes, but each has a number of subclasses for a grand total of 117, so we're small in comparison.  Right now the limiting factor of classes is archetype, you want to play a wizard, we've got one, you want to play a knight, sure. Admittedly this appeals more to those players who want their character to "feel" a certain way and the mechanics come secondary. It doesn't do a whole lot for players who want to play a certain mechanical role (i.e. the Tank, the DPS, the Support, the Controller). It'd be cool to come up with a combination of these two in order to appeal to both types of players. D&D 4th edition sort of did this by dividing roles and "power sources" amongst their classes. So you had roles (Leader, Striker, Defender, Controller) and then you had the sources (Arcane, Divine, Martial, Primal, Psionic), so a Rogue would be a martial striker, while a barbarian would be a primal striker. The downside to this setup is sometime folks want to play a class, but not that specific role. Take for example Fighters, typically they are classified as martial defenders, but perhaps you want to be more of an offense type role but don't want to go down the route of being a sneaky rogue, with the 4e system you're sort of stuck. So the trick will be providing options that are intuitive without requiring reading through every class, but at the same time providing flexibility for those that want a certain "feel" but not necessarily the associated mechanics.

Okay, that's a lot of more classes indeed . I'm only familiar with RPG games, such as the Elder Scrolls and the like and there they cut down on the classes probably to not alienate a wider audience and provide clarity. Pen & paper RPG's are a bit of uncharted territory.

Thanks for the clear explanation. A combination of both ideas would perhaps be an ideal situation indeed.

Like I said to Duvors: I'll see if I find some time over the weekend and mull it over.

[Waterbrick Down]

On 6/22/2021 at 9:37 AM, Duvors said:

On thinking abut it, I've removed the Tandem Fighter and Verdant Knight classes from the google document as I didn't like either of them. On that note, @Waterbrick Down, perhaps it would be a good idea to have a non-editable link to the document in order to give people easy access to the latest versions?

Link added to the first post.

[Duvors]

I've removed the Blade Sage/Kensei from the document. As much as i want an 'iaijutsu' class (blame the Zatoichi films) I think the design was too messy and the action was largely redundant with how opportunistic attacks work. I'm also considering removing Fluid Footwork from the Swashbuckler and adding a 'Riposte' trait instead and I'd like a second opinion on that.

I also don't like the Berserker, I don't think the flavor really fits and I dislike the fact that Relentless is a clear copy of the D&D barbarian's reckless attack. I also think the warrior's current action feels too much like a trait.

An idea: Replace relentless with 'war cry' or suchlike and give it the effects of the Warrior's Tactical Mind, give tactical mind an effect like the Warrior's current action, and think up a new action for the Warrior.

[Dutch Thriceman]

By the way, if I understand correctly, in order to take up a class one must have 1 of the skills listed up to at least 5.

[Duvors]

11 hours ago, Dutch Thriceman said:

By the way, if I understand correctly, in order to take up a class one must have 1 of the skills listed up to at least 5.

Yep, that's exactly it.

[Duvors]

On 6/28/2021 at 10:12 PM, Duvors said:

I'm also considering removing Fluid Footwork from the Swashbuckler and adding a 'Riposte' trait instead and I'd like a second opinion on that.

I've gone ahead with this, and also fiddled with their required proficiencies a bit. I've also added a missing comma to the Scoundrel's action.

By the way, does it seem to anyone that the Shaman class doesn't have a clear role? I've mentioned this the WBD in private but I feel it needs more feedback from the 'public'.

[Waterbrick Down]

4 hours ago, Duvors said:

I've gone ahead with this, and also fiddled with their required proficiencies a bit. I've also added a missing comma to the Scoundrel's action.

By the way, does it seem to anyone that the Shaman class doesn't have a clear role? I've mentioned this the WBD in private but I feel it needs more feedback from the 'public'.

I'll grant the Shaman class was initially developed to have more of a "leader" role (hence the action) and something akin to the Hacker for Spirit type enemies. But considering Enemies no longer have a "type" it doesn't really have a good fit anymore.

[Duvors]

Latest Update:

• Removed Shaman (sorry, but the leader role is currently filled by the Warrior).
• Changed the Hermit's required proficiencies and their second trait.
• Changed the required proficiencies for the Assassin and Pugilist.
• Changed the Berserker's second trait.

[Waterbrick Down]

19 minutes ago, Duvors said:

Latest Update:

• Removed Shaman (sorry, but the leader role is currently filled by the Warrior).
• Changed the Hermit's required proficiencies and their second trait.
• Changed the required proficiencies for the Assassin and Pugilist.
• Changed the Berserker's second trait.

All good changes. 

[Waterbrick Down]

So I decided to break the current classes into a grid based on earlier comments about role and feel. A fair number of the classes are hybrids, so I've grouped them with what the majority of their traits/actions focus upon. First a few definitions:

Roles
Tank: Primarily has traits and actions used to either mitigate damage, protect other players, or lock down enemies so they aren't a threat to the rest of the group.
DPS: Primarily has traits for increasing damage output and taking enemies down quickly
Controller: Primarily has traits to deal with multiple enemies or effect the battle's environment in some way
Support: Primarily has traits that buff other players or heal them
Specialist: Very focused on one particular skill generally non-combat related

Feel
Martial: The more "real-world" skilled characters that are good at what they do because of their training
Arcane: Characters that derive their abilities from magical sources (whether innate or studied)
Divine: Religious or philosophical characters with power stemming from a particular set of beliefs
Nature: Similar to divine characters but with more of a focus upon the natural world as a conduit for their abilities
Occult: Those characters with a flare for borrowed power or with relations to other spheres of reality or "dark" magics

	Martial	Arcane	Divine	Nature	Occult
Tank	Espaiter, Guardian, Pugilist		Crusader
DPS	Assassin, Scoundrel, Sniper, Swashbuckler	Battlemage		Berserker, Survivalist
Controller	Gunslinger	Illusionist, Mage, Sorcerer	Martial Artist	Hermit	Summoner, Warlock
Support	Engineer, Medic, Warrior	Skald	Priest		Necromancer, Witch
Specialist	Detective, Hacker, Scholar	Ætherdiver	Prosecutor

As we can see there are some gaps. If I were trying to balance these I might suggest the following changes:

	Martial	Arcane	Divine	Nature	Occult
Tank	Guardian, Pugilist	Battlemage	Crusader	Berserker	Espaiter
DPS	Scoundrel, Sniper, Swashbuckler	Sorcerer	Prosecuter	Survivalist	Warlock
Controller	Gunslinger, Hacker	Illusionist, Mage	Martial Artist	Hermit	Summoner
Support	Engineer, Medic, Warrior	Skald	Priest	Alchemist?	Witch
Specialist	Detective, Scholar	Ætherdiver

Assassin and Sniper are similar enough to combine in my opinion. Necromancer while unique I feel could be captured as part of Summoner. Espaiter is currently a "space marine" but I think it has the potential to be more themed around dealing with occultish threats similar to how the prosecutor deals with religious threats. I'm not the biggest fan of specialist roles, but I'd rather not make everything focused around combat roles, if we have them for Martial and Arcane, part of me would like to see something similar for Divine, Nature, and Occult. I realize that this would require reworking traits/actions for some classes, but this setup would provide for more balance of role and feel.

[Duvors]

@Waterbrick Down I think you've misinterpreted the intended nature of the classes I designed. To begin with, the Sorcerer is much more a martial class than an arcane one and I strongly dislike the idea of moving a class intended to emulate stage magicians to a 'attack' role. Similarly the Espatier is intended as a martial class for people who don't specialize in weapon proficiencies. The Prosecutor, despite having Religion/Occult requirements, is primarily intended as a generalist anti-mage rather than focusing on any particular type of magical threat and was very deliberately designed to be a sort of alternative to the Detective.

[Waterbrick Down]

38 minutes ago, Duvors said:

@Waterbrick Down I think you've misinterpreted the intended nature of the classes I designed. To begin with, the Sorcerer is much more a martial class than an arcane one and I strongly dislike the idea of moving a class intended to emulate stage magicians to a 'attack' role. Similarly the Espatier is intended as a martial class for people who don't specialize in weapon proficiencies. The Prosecutor, despite having Religion/Occult requirements, is primarily intended as a generalist anti-mage rather than focusing on any particular type of magical threat and was very deliberately designed to be a sort of alternative to the Detective.

Like I said, the second rubric is more an attempt to fill in gaps. It's understood that the mechanics of the class would need to be shifted to help them fit those roles better. As for feel, I'd argue that Sorcerer is often more associated with arcane magic than stage hand trickery. Again, I'm not necessarily tied to the rubric, it was simply trying to address the criticism that the classes as they currently are make it difficult for someone simply looking to fill a certain mechanical role to not have to read/understand every single class.

[Duvors]

• Deleted Sniper and Necromancer.
• Changed Assassin.
• Edited actions of Battlemage and Hacker.
• Renamed Survivalist to Outlander, made significant changes.

2 minutes ago, Waterbrick Down said:

Like I said, the second rubric is more an attempt to fill in gaps. It's understood that the mechanics of the class would need to be shifted to help them fit those roles better. As for feel, I'd argue that Sorcerer is often more associated with arcane magic than stage hand trickery. Again, I'm not necessarily tied to the rubric, it was simply trying to address the criticism that the classes as they currently are make it difficult for someone simply looking to fill a certain mechanical role to not have to read/understand every single class.

Maybe, but I happen to be quite proud of the 'semi-spellcaster for non-spellcasting players' idea. Admittedly it's a weird niche that I doubt will find many players will be interested in. But feel is very important to a class and is often going to do more to draw players than mechanics. I also note that the way you divide roles places a lot of emphasis on combat, excessively so in my opinion. I'd prefer a greater number of non-combat classes. You also differ from me in that you lump all non-spellcasters into 'Martial' rather than having a separate 'Skilled' feel.

On another note, I feel that not enough has been done to separate the Witch and Warlock thematically, but I'm currently at a loss as to what more can be done (short of renaming the Warlock to 'Cultist' or somesuch).

[Waterbrick Down]

23 minutes ago, Duvors said:

• Deleted Sniper and Necromancer.
• Changed Assassin.
• Edited actions of Battlemage and Hacker.
• Renamed Survivalist to Outlander, made significant changes.

Maybe, but I happen to be quite proud of the 'semi-spellcaster for non-spellcasting players' idea. Admittedly it's a weird niche that I doubt will find many players will be interested in. But feel is very important to a class and is often going to do more to draw players than mechanics. I also note that the way you divide roles places a lot of emphasis on combat, excessively so in my opinion. I'd prefer a greater number of non-combat classes. You also differ from me in that you lump all non-spellcasters into 'Martial' rather than having a separate 'Skilled' feel.

On another note, I feel that not enough has been done to separate the Witch and Warlock thematically, but I'm currently at a loss as to what more can be done (short of renaming the Warlock to 'Cultist' or somesuch).

• Assassin now seems a good blend of sniper and the previous version.
• I like the defensive nature of Battlemage's action, it'll probably be more useful as right now I don't imagine lots of enemies will sport armor
• Hacker I feel needs to be a class given the setting, but it's still dependent upon enemy typing's which don't currently exist.
• Assassin and Outlander actions might be too similar, the intention was to make the Outlander fit the typical "ranger" feel without reverting to the OHKO specialization of the assassin.

I'm ok with a semi-spell caster role, maybe it's just the name that is bothering me. I tend to think Illusionist might be a more apt name.

The emphasis on combat I think is warranted. It takes up nearly half the rules and I believe because of the influence of modern RPG's and MMO's a lot of people tend to still think of their character in terms of what their role in an adventuring party is, not necessarily what is the occupation of their character. Most missions I assume are going to have combat in them, so it would make sense for players' classes to contribute to this big part of the game so that they don't feel left out due to their class choice. The idea behind different roles in an adventuring party is that each member can potentially make up for the deficiency of the others. I'd love to have more non-combat classes, but I also don't want players to feel bummed if the missions never really line up with their non-combat class. We could have an carpenter class, but I highly doubt we'll have many missions related to construction.

The distinction between martial and skilled was more to distinguish between Spirit classes and non-Spirit classes.

Thematically, I tend to think of the Warlock as the Occult spell caster with a pact/contract to an other spherely entitiy/power. Witches to me are more the dwell in the woods healer/alchemist/hexers that derive power more from taking advantage of the natural/supernatural sources.

[Duvors]

10 minutes ago, Waterbrick Down said:

• Assassin and Outlander actions might be too similar, the intention was to make the Outlander fit the typical "ranger" feel without reverting to the OHKO specialization of the assassin.

The action is pretty much unchanged from what it was other than bring it it in line with the Crusader and the aforementioned Assassin. I might change one or the other to something involving concealment, but at the moment we really don't have rules for that to begin with.

17 minutes ago, Waterbrick Down said:

I'm ok with a semi-spell caster role, maybe it's just the name that is bothering me. I tend to think Illusionist might be a more apt name.

Conjurer then. I only called it Sorcerer because I couldn't think of how to do D&D's 'inherited power' archetype.

18 minutes ago, Waterbrick Down said:

Thematically, I tend to think of the Warlock as the Occult spell caster with a pact/contract to an other spherely entitiy/power. Witches to me are more the dwell in the woods healer/alchemist/hexers that derive power more from taking advantage of the natural/supernatural sources.

That may be lost on people, partly because the names of the Warlock's abilities don't evoke that image and partly because it's listed right next to the Witch. I've just gone in and changed the second trait's name to match the intent.

[Duvors]

I've altered the Assassin's action to work off stealth, as allowing them to just double their weapon proficiency on a whim seemed a bit too much to me. I've also made a small change to the Swashbuckler.

Edited July 7, 2021 by Duvors