Commander Beltar Posted June 1, 2015 Haha! Amazing build! Can't type much at the moment, I'll edit it later if I have time. I like how you incorporated the logo and my build into it! The actual mining facility looks great, also, great job on the story! The explanation, and what you've done to Beltar! It gives me ideas for future builds...And...how about extreme tan? ~Beltar Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Umbra-Manis Posted June 2, 2015 I hope you're not trying to teach me LDD... Maybe Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bob De Quatre Posted June 2, 2015 Hahaha, no, of course not. I actually used some of your tricks when rendering so I was able to get it done in time. I just wanted to post some of my thoughts why some people might percieve why LDD as easier than it is (especially since we don't know who the judges actually are and exactly what the scoring is based on). I can assure you that LDD builds aren't penalized. But I think that in general we score too low, mostly on a 1 to 5 scale while we should go from 1 to 6, and even 7. We'll discuss that problem. (I mean, you could probably do my build in LDD in like a fourth of the time or less You don't really want to know that answer We do know the judges, it's Lady K, Narbilu, and Bob. It's a rounded average, so you might have scored 5/4/4 for a 4.33 average, while 4.5 (a judge build gets only 2 judges) or 4.67 would both be rounded to 5. So those are the people to bribe. What we don't know is the processes behind the decisions, I would certainly love a generic form of things to shoot for. E.g. marks for build neatness, impressiveness, and story integration. The way to step further would be to use the build for storytelling like Big Sal's well-deserved 6 this week. The rounding may be a cause (but not the only one) to the sentiment of unfairness, as someone who got a 3 and two 4 will have the same score than someone who got two 4 and a 5 (like this build). I can't speak for the other two, but I know Narbilu scores many criterias and combine them to get a final score, while I score with a less structured method. All the criterias you mentionned count, and there are more, like techniques used, and for example here I don't see many build techniques except rock building, and that rock building could be improved by creating geological stratas with colors variations instead of having a mix of greys... One more thing: we are just humans (I have some doubts about Narbilu), so we have our own judgement and tastes... And we can do mistakes too... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Commander Turtle Posted June 2, 2015 I'm glad there's a bit of dialogue around the judging, thanks for discussing Bob I can assure you that LDD builds aren't penalized. But I think that in general we score too low, mostly on a 1 to 5 scale while we should go from 1 to 6, and even 7. We'll discuss that problem. Given the price of some of the personal upgrades, I think we could definitely use some higher scores! Or perhaps reduce the cost of some upgrades. I'd particularly like to see the second job upgrade reduced a lot, since it's mostly a roleplaying upgrade rather than an especially useful one. Currently it needs 70 weeks of 43 credit builds, which is an enormous time investment. In contrast, I think the 30 domination points/planet is very well balanced right now. For that, the 1-6 scale works fine with a 7 in place for when someone makes a 48x48 factory with 7 types of cleverly built mech roaming around... The rounding may be a cause (but not the only one) to the sentiment of unfairness, as someone who got a 3 and two 4 will have the same score than someone who got two 4 and a 5 (like this build).I can't speak for the other two, but I know Narbilu scores many criterias and combine them to get a final score, while I score with a less structured method. All the criterias you mentionned count, and there are more, like techniques used, and for example here I don't see many build techniques except rock building, and that rock building could be improved by creating geological stratas with colors variations instead of having a mix of greys... Semi-solutions off the top of my head are to have unrounded final scores (e.g. this scores 43 credits before bonus, the other example scores 37 credits), or perhaps to allow judges to make decimal scores individually, like 4.5, and then round the final average of these. It could add a little finesse to it, like when a build is impressive but might lack some of the variation in techniques you might want. You're the boss, Bob! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Col. Brik Posted June 2, 2015 Fantastic build. I love the detail put into it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NuckElBerg Posted June 2, 2015 Haha! Amazing build! Can't type much at the moment, I'll edit it later if I have time. I like how you incorporated the logo and my build into it! The actual mining facility looks great, also, great job on the story! The explanation, and what you've done to Beltar! It gives me ideas for future builds... I'm glad that you liked it! I tried to do what I felt was a good representation of your character, without taking over too much of your story (also, I realized it would look a bit odd with our characters being different colors, and that I wasn't completely sure I could do a faithful representation of him in LDD). :) And...how about extreme tan? Or maybe the rest of us just suffer from severe jaundice? ;) You don't really want to know that answer I probably don't, no. The rounding may be a cause (but not the only one) to the sentiment of unfairness, as someone who got a 3 and two 4 will have the same score than someone who got two 4 and a 5 (like this build). I can't speak for the other two, but I know Narbilu scores many criterias and combine them to get a final score, while I score with a less structured method. All the criterias you mentionned count, and there are more, like techniques used, and for example here I don't see many build techniques except rock building, and that rock building could be improved by creating geological stratas with colors variations instead of having a mix of greys... One more thing: we are just humans (I have some doubts about Narbilu), so we have our own judgement and tastes... And we can do mistakes too... I'm glad there's a bit of dialogue around the judging, thanks for discussing Bob [...] Given the price of some of the personal upgrades, I think we could definitely use some higher scores! Or perhaps reduce the cost of some upgrades. I'd particularly like to see the second job upgrade reduced a lot, since it's mostly a roleplaying upgrade rather than an especially useful one. Currently it needs 70 weeks of 43 credit builds, which is an enormous time investment. In contrast, I think the 30 domination points/planet is very well balanced right now. For that, the 1-6 scale works fine with a 7 in place for when someone makes a 48x48 factory with 7 types of cleverly built mech roaming around... [...] Semi-solutions off the top of my head are to have unrounded final scores (e.g. this scores 43 credits before bonus, the other example scores 37 credits), or perhaps to allow judges to make decimal scores individually, like 4.5, and then round the final average of these. It could add a little finesse to it, like when a build is impressive but might lack some of the variation in techniques you might want. You're the boss, Bob! I'm really glad you took the time to elaborate a little on the judging process Bob. It seems in general from what you are saying that quality is preferred over quantity, which I absolutely think is a great thing (even though I think the size of the project should absolutely be taken into account). Also, looking at, for example, shmails build this week, I definitely see how I could have improved my own build. At the same time, I don't think there should be an "over-focus" on using a lot of advanced techniques everywhere. If a vision can be done equally nicely by using appropriate pieces rather than advanced techniques, should any of the two methods really be preferred over the other (for example, the 5571 Giant Truck/Black Cat almost doesn't use any SNOT building techniques, but would it really be better if it did)? (Also, there are actually quite a few techniques in this build, including SNOT for the Awsomnium "water falls", 45 degrees and upside-down building for the extractor (which is then "neutralized" in the hollow cone in the sweeper pod), layering + half brick offsets + SNOT + semi-covering of bricks to create a thin edge in the Kawashita logo, etc., but it's very possible that I made the build a bit too cluttered for these things to be noticed.) Please don't take any of this the wrong way. I'm not angry or feeling (overly 0:)) unfairly treated, I just love this game, and really like us being able to have some transparency/discussion regarding on how the scoring is done, to ensure that greater effort is rewarded and credits go where credits are due. I also quoted Turtle here, because I really like his suggestions how to improve the game and increase its "fairness" (I'm not a particularly big fan of that word, I mean... what is really "fair" anyway (especially in a subjective setting such as this) ?), plus, I completely agree with him that you are, in fact, THE MAN Bob (I mean, none of this would really have happened if it wasn't for you)! Cheers! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
