Unpopular Opinions about LEGO

[icm]

3 minutes ago, Darth_Bane13 said:

Actually the burden of proof falls on the people making the claim that people are offended by being represented in LEGO.

In a conversation like this, anyone should be prepared to back up a claim in either direction.

7 minutes ago, danth said:

I don't think Lego would do an entire year of space, complete with a CMF series & City Space wave, immediately after the Galaxy Explorer if it sold poorly. 

Now the Renegade? No comment.

I think the cross-theme Space push in 2024 was originally intended to capitalize on public interest in Artemis 2. That mission was originally scheduled to fly in 2024, two years after the uncrewed Artemis 1 test launch in 2022. It was delayed by two years to make sure the heat shield was safe to fly on, after the Artemis 1 heat shield suffered unexpected damage during reentry. I expect Lego got the financial returns they wanted out of the 2024 Space sets, but they weren't going to rush out another big Space wave in 2026 to accommodate NASA delays. So they kept the Icons version of the Artemis rocket on sale, made a smaller Technic version for 2026, and pushed ahead with the many other sets otherwise planned for this year. It's been a banger of a year so far, in my opinion.

[danth]

14 minutes ago, Darth_Bane13 said:

As @SpacePolice89 said, the only people who are offended are white liberal women such as yourself. Do you even live in the real world? Native Americans and pacific islanders aren't sitting around getting angry about being portrayed as a Lego. 

One -- Yikes.

Two -- Funny, I didn't know Maui Solomon was a white women.

 

[icm]

4 minutes ago, danth said:

Two -- Funny, I didn't know Maui Solomon was a white women.

Thanks for the contemporary link to the article about Bionicle. Here's a link to a website about him today: https://www.climateone.org/people/maui-solomon

[Kit Figsto]

50 minutes ago, danth said:

I don't think Lego would do an entire year of space, complete with a CMF series & City Space wave, immediately after the Galaxy Explorer if it sold poorly. 

Now the Renegade? No comment.

I think the issue with the large Icons sets are that, while cool in theory, it's putting all of the eggs in one basket regarding representing that theme.  I'm going to use myself as an example here, but I really like certain aspects of classic Castle, Space, and Pirates, but I wouldn't say that I am 100% a fan of each theme.  There's been a few of the Icons sets that I've really liked the idea of, but they either weren't appealing enough for me to shell out the price (like, Eldorado Fortress was very cool, but I didn't like it enough to spend $200), or they aren't really where my interest lies (the Galaxy Explorer was objectively a well-designed set, but my Space interest mostly lies in Ice Planet, Space Police, Spyrius, and the 2000s themes - yes, I know that's blasphemous to some classic Space aficianados ).  

I'm sort of straying from your point here, but it just got me thinking, I think even if we are looking at set sales data (and I agree with your analysis that the Galaxy Explorer probably did well enough, otherwise they wouldn't have continued doing Icons sets), I don't think it's fair to say "Well, the Renegade didn't sell well, so therefore the whole Icons line isn't selling" because there could be plenty of other factors causing people to not buy the Blacktron set besides just a lack of interest in the theme.  

That would be like Star Wars releasing ONLY a Millennium Falcon, and then people saying that the line isn't selling well because people don't need to buy 5 copies of that one ship.

That said, do I think that a full-fledged reboot of Pirates, Castle, or Space would do well?  Maybe.  I think it would depend heavily on how it was done, and how it was marketed, but I think we as the consumers don't really know enough to say that it would for sure do well , or would for sure flop.  We can look at examples and say that it would do well (the CMF Wolfpack guy being impossible to find, BDP sets of classic themes being the most sought-after, etc.), or we can look at counter-examples and say it would fail (Castle and Pirates both got reboots in the 2010s during the period when themes like Friends and Ninjago did well enough to become evergreen themes, but neither stuck around for more than a wave or two).  The only thing that I'm fairly certain of is that if they were convinced it would print money, they would've done it by now, and perhaps they're not willing to risk a line failing, and instead would rather take their risk on stuff that could have a greater possible reward outcome (stuff like Mario or the Smart Brick, though the jury is still out on the second one).

Edited Wednesday at 04:58 PM by Kit Figsto

[Darth_Bane13]

28 minutes ago, danth said:

Two -- Funny, I didn't know Maui Solomon was a white women.

Well, he certainly acts like one  Imagine being offended over Bionicle's. Honestly I don't even care if people are offended, I think kids having a fun toy is more important than a few Karen complaints. 

[icm]

14 minutes ago, Darth_Bane13 said:

Well, he certainly acts like one  Imagine being offended over Bionicle's. Honestly I don't even care if people are offended, I think kids having a fun toy is more important than a few Karen complaints. 

You may not remember it, but this was actually a fairly notable controversy in 2001. The Maori individuals who thought early Bionicle's use of Maori words and imagery was disrespectful were not "a few Karen complaints", and they weren't "white liberal women." It was an actual case of indigenous minorities taking offense at Lego's appropriation of their culture, and Lego made a good-faith effort to change in response. I mean, you can brush off anything this way if the only thing that matters is "kids having a fun toy."

Edit - looking through your post history, you say you were born the year they switched the grays and browns. So, you don't remember the Bionicle controversy in 2001 because you weren't alive for it. Yes, please do imagine being offended over a Chinese toy line that turns, say, "American senior citizens" into little robots and has them constantly being threatened by giant robot bugs. You might be irked by it but laugh it off, or with a little more time and effort you might try and contact the Chinese toymaker and ask them to please call the little robots something different. I admit that's not a very effective way to transpose the Maori objections to "Tohunga" into a Western analogy, but maybe you can think of something different that you'd prefer to please not be made into a toy.

Edited Wednesday at 05:23 PM by icm

[GameyRaccoon]

1 hour ago, danth said:

The Galaxy Explorer had a special price at Walmart on release

I kind of regret not buying two more at Walmart just for the alt builds/parts. That set was the best deal Lego has done in decades, even at full price.

[Darth_Bane13]

1 hour ago, icm said:

Yes, please do imagine being offended over a Chinese toy line that turns, say, "American senior citizens" into little robots and has them constantly being threatened by giant robot bugs. You might be irked by it but laugh it off, or with a little more time and effort you might try and contact the Chinese toymaker and ask them to please call the little robots something different. I admit that's not a very effective way to transpose the Maori objections to "Tohunga" into a Western analogy, but maybe you can think of something different that you'd prefer to please not be made into a toy.

I literally would not care at all if a Chinese toymaker did that, it actually sounds pretty funny. There is literally nothing I'd object to being made into a toy, unless it was sexually explicit or something. If a toy company wants to make caricature of Americans then they should. I doubt most Maori people actually cared about this.

[SpacePolice89]

2 hours ago, icm said:

toy line that turns, say, "American senior citizens" into little robots and has them constantly being threatened by giant robot bugs.

I couldn't resist

[icm]

@SpacePolice89 Well played!

[SpacePolice89]

19 minutes ago, icm said:

@SpacePolice89 Well played!

Maybe all this turned out to be something positive in the end. Together we have come up with some ideas for a new theme! 

[Wolfpack]

7 hours ago, SpacePolice89 said:

Regarding the classic themes a good compromise would be to release a full wave of sets for one of them every other year. For example: Pirates 2027, Castle 2029 and Space 2031 and then start all over. Each theme (including two factions e.g. Pirates and Imperial Guards) would be available for two years and include sets in all sizes and some would be more traditional while others would be more modern but all sets still normal kid friendly sets. When a theme is not available single large 18+ sets like the Galaxy Explorer or the Eldorado Fortress could be released.

I think the marketing would be very important in such endeavour. They could do a new brand lego Eternal, Timeless, Evergreen or something, maybe yellow boxes and then mix all those themes. 2027 two or three castle sets and two or three space sets, 2029 two or three pirate sets and two or three western (or adventurers etc.) sets.

Those themes should not be too hard or too expensive to make. Most of the parts are in the production anyway. They would need some ten headgears to fix as basic moulds to be available all the time and they could make basically anything.

The same goes for weapons, ten would be more than enough, most of them are already in produciton anyway. Everything else is also already available in other themes, so no problem there. With some recolouring and torso prints, maybe adding some usefull stuff from the contemporary CMF line or a new part here and there the options for new factions would be limitless. If it does well, just add more stuff. If the designs were half decent I am sure they would not make a loss. It would be also a great help for BDP, which could focus more on other stuff and keep the remaining sets more genuine.

 

[Darth_Bane13]

4 hours ago, SpacePolice89 said:

I couldn't resist

Not funny. This is literal cultural appropriation. 

[Karalora]

Apparently, it is also an unpopular opinion that any hypothetical Western or Pirates revival would be just as good if the indigenous people were not depicted as weird caricatures. Seriously, why would you defend that?

Skimming back over the thread, I heartily agree that we could use more sets--Icons or otherwise--at affordable price points. But maybe especially Icons, since those tend to be one-off concepts to entice people who might not otherwise have been interested in LEGO. They could attract so many more people to the hobby if the bar for entry weren't raised so high.

I also unironically love the idea of "City Castle." I'm imagining something like a Renaissance Faire or SCA chapter that holds events at a local castle or castle-themed tourist attraction. You could get literal castle structures (in various states of repair if it's an historical castle), a marketplace with lots of fun medieval-style booths and merchandise, knights with unique heraldry and horses with barding for the joust event, the works!

City Pirates is harder to parse. Something with a theme park-y vibe is certainly possible, but seems more forced than it does with Castle.

[icm]

I think City Space 2024 has shown that the City label on any hypothetical City Castle or City Pirates doesn't actually have to mean anything, but for the sake of argument I'll say that one way to do City Pirates would be a maritime museum setting, like any of the old sailing ships docked by the quay in San Diego or like the museum berths of Constitution, Constellation, or Victory.

[icm]

While we're musing about bringing old "historic" themes under the City umbrella, you could easily make a City set for an Old West tourist trap like Tombstone or Old Tucson, and a heritage railroad to go with it. There's your City Western theme!

[danth]

2 hours ago, Karalora said:

Apparently, it is also an unpopular opinion that any hypothetical Western or Pirates revival would be just as good if the indigenous people were not depicted as weird caricatures. Seriously, why would you defend that?

I think it can be done correctly. Like you said previously, as long as they are not "othered" and show variation and nuance. I think the Native Americans in the old western sets were mostly okay, but I don't know why they gave them faces that looked arguably more human -- with full eyes and noses instead of just pupils -- than the regular minifigs. Maybe trying too hard not to get in trouble? Something like the CMFs would probably be fine. 

2 hours ago, icm said:

I think City Space 2024 has shown that the City label on any hypothetical City Castle or City Pirates doesn't actually have to mean anything

Yeah, exactly. I was proposing full on medieval castles with knights and stuff, right under Lego City. With no explanation.

Because IMO interstellar space ships with aliens under City was no less weird. Also, when I pointed out that weirdness, everyone said "who cares what's on the box?" So I'm embracing that.

[SpacePolice89]

4 hours ago, Darth_Bane13 said:

Not funny. This is literal cultural appropriation.

I am very sorry about this. I had to educate myself and I am now aware of all the systemic ageism the senior citizens have been facing and still do and from now on I will always ask the ASCA (American Senior Citizens Association) for permission and guidance before building any MOCs that depict senior citizens or even include gray hair pieces. I have also discovered other forms of cultural appropriation in real Lego sets where traditional items for senior citizens items such as hearing aids have been depicted. All those sets have been designed by young people well below retirement age without asking the senior citizen community for advice and guidance.

Edited 21 hours ago by SpacePolice89

[SpacePolice89]

1 hour ago, danth said:

but I don't know why they gave them faces that looked arguably more human -- with full eyes and noses instead of just pupils -- than the regular minifigs. Maybe trying too hard not to get in trouble?

This is very interesting. The Bandits faction also had very detailed faces as well as most minifigs from the Time Cruisers theme. Maybe they tried to experiment with new designs since this was the period when the classic smiley face and its variations were replaced with other designs?

[JesseNight]

20 hours ago, GameyRaccoon said:

Why not make icons sets that don't cost so much money?

The AFOL audience for this is probably a lot smaller. I think they go for the "one time, and do it big" formula knowing AFOLs tend to have a bigger budget. And then rely on FOMO doing its job.
They don't care if everybody who wants it gets it. Financially this structure tends to work better for a business. A few rich whales > satisfying the bigger average audience.
I don't remember where I read it (something about Lego history), but the time they worked just to make the audiences happy is long past. They've been doing quite bad in some years too and put someone in charge who understands modern business better. I don't like it either, but it is what made the company survive.
 

20 hours ago, GameyRaccoon said:

Blacktron Cruiser/Forestmen's hideout-sized sets that aren't locked behind a GWP.

Again, business.
GWP is pure FOMO exploitation and it works. It's limited so people want it. Some for what it is, some for its rarity, some just for its (future) value. Resellers want to stock up on it. So lock it behind spending big on the Lego store, and money flows in big time on the first days bc everybody wants that GWP and rather not buy it for higher prices later.
 

20 hours ago, GameyRaccoon said:

You could mine out even more of the adult collector/classic theme fan demo who maybe is strapped for cash or space and can't justify the big sets. You aren't investing in the shelf space/marketing required for a whole theme, but you are more regularly saying "Hey, here's a little 30 dollar classic space/castle/pirates set." That seems like the perfect happy medium to me.

Like I said, I'm afraid the audience towards nostalgic sets is just a lot smaller. Probably too small to justify enough profit on cheaper small set releases.
 

20 hours ago, GameyRaccoon said:

The cynical part of me says not to hold your breath, though. As far as I know (and correct me if I'm wrong), the galaxy explorer and blacktron renegade did not sell well despite being priced and designed quite well in my opinion.

Really? I guess that just proves my point again that the audience for the classics is just a too small percentage. I regretted not grabbing more Galaxy Explorers when they were under 100, but they didn't really raise in value and that says enough.
 

22 hours ago, Karalora said:

Assuming LEGO is not going to revive the Classic themes in the foreseeable future, what would be the next best route they could take?

I couldn't care less, as stupid as that may sound. The classics (the real ones and good revivals) is the only reason I'm into Lego today, with only a few exceptions in Icons that appealed because of other nostalgic feelings.
 

6 hours ago, SpacePolice89 said:

I am very sorry about this. I had to educate myself and I am now aware of all the systemic ageism the senior citizens have been facing and still do and from now on I will always ask the ASCA (American Senior Citizens Association) for permission and guidance before building any MOCs that depict senior citizens or even include gray hair pieces. I have also discovered other forms of cultural appropriation in real Lego sets where traditional items for senior citizens items such as hearing aids have been depicted. All those sets have been designed by young people well below retirement age without asking the senior citizen community for advice and guidance.

I have to agree that people getting offended has turned a bit weird nowadays. There will always be people offended about something, it just seems to turn into a media circus fast nowadays. Should we really keep feeding that media attention?
I am not a perfect person. I have a certain skin color, just like everybody. I have a certain age, just like everybody. I have a certain gender and sexual orientation, just like everybody. I have beliefs and opinions, just like everybody. That (and much more) makes me human. Should I be offended if a toy makes something that appears like me but doesn't get it entirely right? Nah...
Why are people so focused on differences just to offend or be offended? I truly don't get it...

Edited 15 hours ago by JesseNight

[Karalora]

8 hours ago, danth said:

I think it can be done correctly. Like you said previously, as long as they are not "othered" and show variation and nuance. I think the Native Americans in the old western sets were mostly okay, but I don't know why they gave them faces that looked arguably more human -- with full eyes and noses instead of just pupils -- than the regular minifigs. Maybe trying too hard not to get in trouble? Something like the CMFs would probably be fine. 

"Trying too hard" seems probable. I looked up when the Western line was active, and the bulk of the Indians sets seem to have come out in 1997--two years after Disney's Pocahontas, which was also a case of "trying too hard" (and ending up vaguely unsatisfying as a result). By 1997, everyone knew what a "Legoman" looked like--dot eyes, no nose, and the mouth and eyebrows doing all the work of the facial expression. Putting extra details on the Indians made them look weird in context, and I have to wonder what went into that decision.
 

Quote

 

Yeah, exactly. I was proposing full on medieval castles with knights and stuff, right under Lego City. With no explanation.

Because IMO interstellar space ships with aliens under City was no less weird. Also, when I pointed out that weirdness, everyone said "who cares what's on the box?" So I'm embracing that.

 

You know what? I like the audacity of this.

1 hour ago, JesseNight said:

Why are people so focused on differences just to offend or be offended? I truly don't get it...

*sigh*...they're not. No one* is literally "looking for things to get offended about," as is sometimes accused. But some things in popular media--like "cannibal natives" and other such ignorant stereotypes--leave a bad taste in the mouth and people would rather they were avoided. I ask again--would hypothetical revivals of the Classic themes be worse if they portrayed their respective indigenous peoples more thoughtfully?

* Or very few people--obviously in a population of 8 billion, you can find instances of almost any behavior you can imagine.

[Siroco]

33 minutes ago, Karalora said:

I ask again--would hypothetical revivals of the Classic themes be worse if they portrayed their respective indigenous peoples more thoughtfully?

 

Don't even understand what you mean with that, but then again its probably my poor english. Are you trying to say that pirates, imperials anda armada where more "thoughtfully" portrayed than islanders? I'm using pirates theme because its the one I love. 

[Karalora]

11 hours ago, Siroco said:

Are you trying to say that pirates, imperials anda armada where more "thoughtfully" portrayed than islanders?

Yes.

[Darth_Bane13]

11 hours ago, Karalora said:

 But some things in popular media--like "cannibal natives" and other such ignorant stereotypes--leave a bad taste in the mouth and people would rather they were avoided. 

The stereotypes exist for a reason, cannibalism happened and is well reported throughout history.

[GameyRaccoon]

17 minutes ago, Darth_Bane13 said:

The stereotypes exist for a reason, cannibalism happened and is well reported throughout history.

When are the islanders even implied to be cannibals?