Haddock51

Having in mind my future 9V Extreme Train Display (total length approx. 175 meters) with High Speed tracks and significant inclinations, I designed a special High Speed Camera Waggon. It carries a Contour Roam2 action camera (HD, 60 pictures/second, 170 degree wide angle, weight: 155 g) on a 360 degree mount. On the left side of the low-level platform, there are 3 metal plates (180 g) to lower the centre of gravity and to improve the weight balance sidewise. The waggon is equipped with 2 9V engines which can be replaced by 2 RC bogies if the waggon is connected to a locomotive/train. Total weight approx. 680 g. Maximum width approx 8 studs.

Arthritis in Lego wheels .... quite amazing! Why hasn´t Lego adressed this issue?!? Very poor design indeed - with potentially serious consequences on engines!

Merci beaucoup! I first read the article about fixing the wheels of the Santa Fe cars. Checked my own cars and understand the issue (really poor design on such an exclusive train set!). What I don´t understand is the way they fix it. You can certainly do it much more precisely and nicely by using e.g. a Cotech Mini Grinder instead of carving with a knife... Good comments about lubrication. Maybe I haven't used my trains so much in the past - but this definitely gives fruit for thoughts (also w.r.t. engine wheels). I also read the excellent article about improving the power supply to a 9V track. Very pedagogically written indeed - understandable even for a non-professional (even though my french is no longer what it used to be ...). Replacing the 9V controller(s) is basically ok even though I still don't know how much you actually gain at the end - you will probably still be operating with multiple transformers anyway. Increase the number of connections to the rails seems to be almost mandatory in this case. When it comes to the "surgical" part - replacing electrical components in the 9V transformer - I get more doubtful (I noticed the warnings....) unless I can find somebody who is willing to help me.

Francais, ca va mieux...

Yes I have tried, and I get the following message: "To run this application, you first must install one of the following versions of the .NET Framework: v2.0.50727 Contact your application publisher for instructions about obtaining the appropriate version of the .NET Framework." Where do I find such instructions?

I can't read dutch .... I guess it brings us back to the issue of multiple connections to the track. Placing contacts with 5 meter intervals will result in approx. 50 connection points. I would still need 4 separate transformers in order to run 3 trains independant of each other, and it would still leave me with approx. 40 connection points - linked to one large scale model train control? Since all 180 degree curves will be on plane levels (with a track length of approx. 2 meters), there will be no inclination at all in the curves - maybe with the exception of the Horizon Express with a total length of 2.3 meters - but that inclination effect should be minor.

I have downloaded BlueBrick version 1.7.1 and the Train package. This program requires Windows.Net Framework 2.0. The link to Windows.Net Framework 2.0 on BlueBricks homepage doesn´t work. Microsoft message: can´t find the page. How do I solve this problem? Are there newer versions of BlueBrick?

That will be difficult to do. The basic idea is that you should be able to use both ramp sections for uphill and downhill - I don't like the "one-way" concept. In order to increase safety and prevent damage, each ramp section will consist of 4 inclination ramps, 3 of them with a ramp length of 4 meters and an inclination of 8 percent/+32 cm, and one with a ramp length of 3 meters (8 percent/+24 cm). There will be 3 plane levels for the 180 degree curves with some straight rails (approx. 2 m of track length). The plane level should contribute to slow down the heavy trains - in fact, it should be possible to reach a complete stop at each curve if necessary.

Couldn´t find the article on wheelset design defect re Santa Fe in Railbricks #2? Could it be in an other edition? Do you have a link to this article?

I have seen these recommendations as well, and I believe they are linked to inclination constructions built only in Lego (for example the bearing constructions). For me, this is ok but I also feel that such recommendations could refrain people from going beyond what is feasable and from exploring what is possible. I consider myself an AFOL but not a Lego fundamentalist where everything has to be built in Lego. Buildings, landscapes, MOCs etc. yes, but when it comes to long and heavy Lego trains in combination with steep inclinations, high altitude platforms, high speed and limited space, then topics like stability, damage prevention and safety must be prioritized - at least in my opinion - in worst case at the expense of "everything in Lego". Lego Train offers such fantastic opportunities, among many others the possibility to operate to a large extent in three dimensions! However, I am convinced that pushing the limits also requires a mindset of balancing risks vs thrilling Lego design opportunities. What is your opinion?

I need to get further clarification on this synch issue. On my previous display - many years back - I used to operate two 9V transformers simultaneously to pull up a 4 engine powered Santa Fe train on inclinations of approx. 8 percent (without any multiple connections) on a loop of approx 10 meters. This worked without any problems - sometimes a little tricky - particularly on downhill operations when you free a lot of energy that needs to be managed and controlled. From what I remember, I used these two transformators not in synch, i.e. not at the same speed. One transformer was used to keep some kind of base speed, the second one to increase/decrease speed - particularly when pushing the train uphill. Is this what you mean by "stressing transformers"? If yes, I am glad that these transformers never were fried .... So if I understand you correctly, in order to "unstress" these transformers, one should always use them "in synch" by switching at the same speed level (except in downhill operations where you only need one transformer anyway)?

You´re absolutely right - the Emerald Night, which in my case is equipped with two 9V engines on the first waggon (out of four) will not manage the incline due to the three axled bogie. I will anyway run it on the high speed track (with an Altitude Adjustment Circle between level +1 and level +2 which has an almost "seemless" change of incline). Yes, downhill will be a challenge - a lot of kinetic energy in movement. As mentionned before, the 180 degree curves will be on plane levels - for safety reasons - with some straights (all in all approx. 2 meters).I will also build plastic fences outside the 180 degree curves, just in case ...I don't like the idea of dropping the Horizon Express - or any other train - from 1 meter above level 0 (with a surface in Plexi-glas to be able to watch train movements on level -1). I will "smoothen" the edge at the end of the long inclines by lifting up the last straight and the first straight after the edge with 1 plate. I hope you will try inclinations in the future and share your experience (and pictures!) with me.

Simply fantastic!!! Any live pictures?

What kind of problems did you have with traction issues? I am still puzzled by the fact that there is so little to find (articles, pictures, movies) about Lego Train inclinations. We all know that floor space is the very limiting factor (besides financial resources ...) for all Lego building activities, in particular w.r.t. trains. Using inclinations within the ramifications for Lego Train 9V opens up for opportunities to use space in a much more efficient way. This 175 meter track will actually be rather compact since it will not occupy more than 6 square meters floor space (disregarding the high speed track which will run 2.2 meters above floor, i.e. the floor space below can still be used for other Lego purposes). I am actually planning to set up a test track exactly in line with your recommendation, but first I need to get my new hobby-room ready which will be later this spring. Why would the use of multiple controllers on one track shorten their lifetime? From what I understand from some of the previous comments, the stress level for 9V controllers seems to be related to the number of controllers used in relation to the number of engines involved and the way these controllers are synched. What are your experiences?

This is how this trainset looks like

The most critical part of this layout are the two identical inclination sections - Ramp Alpha and Ramp Beta - between level 0 and level +1. Total length approx. 20 meters each, total climbing altitude approx. 120 cm. Since all 180 degree curves will be on plane levels - for safety reasons - the inclination is approx. 8 percent. The total weight of the extended Horizon Express is approx. 3 kg that have to be pulled "all the way up to the top". I calculate to have two 9V transformers in synch for each Ramp section with 2x4 connection points - every 5 meters - basically side by side. So my key question: Will the two transformers manage to get this train - with 4 engines and a total weight of 3 kg - all the way up to level +1? Will 4 x 300mA be enough or do I need to consider even more engines (and eventually more trafos) for such a heavy train given the size and length of these inclinations? Experience from my previous layout (Brickshelf, DaRePo) with similar inclinations (approx. 8 percent) but shorter track length showed that there was no problem getting a 4 engine powered full sized Santa Fe train "all the way up to the hill" (ground level + 35 centimeters), with two 9V transformers in synch and no multiple connections at all (total track length for that loop - up and down - approx. 10 meters).

That´s a very nice one - and everything in Lego! Looks very stable. Would be interesting to know the inclination percentage and details about the power supply, not to mention live pictures ...

Very nice pictures Urban! I certainly like the landscape and the MOCs, very nice work indeed! I was more referring to inclinations with major altitude differences, i.e. 1 meter plus, which requires some advanced architecture and rather sophisticated power supply solutions. I got some very interesting and useful pieces of advice under "9V Extreme - Power Supply" but I am still eager to see some pictures and videos from similar layouts - type "climbing up the wall"!

As I wrote in an other topic recently (9V Extreme - Power Supply), I am planning to build a large train display with significant inclinations up to 176 cm in total. I have seen many train videos and pictures, but none showing inclinations of 100 cm plus. Is this still basically an unexplored territory in the Lego Train world?

Going the traditional 9V way would result in 9 transformers with 4 multiple connections each, so in total 36 connections (2x2 trafos for the High Speed tracks, 1 trafo for each inclination between level 0 and level +1 (approx. 2x20 m) that can be combined with 1 trafo for level 0, and 2 trafos for level -1 and inclinations between level 0 and level -1 (2x6 m). This would also allow to run 3 trains independantly (with assistance!) I would probably use loudspeaker wires (2x1,5 mm) to extend the connection wires. Some of them could be as much as 15 meters long. I am also considering to solder some connections directly on the rails, e.g. all connections along the High Speed track. Any advice on how this should be fused?

Very nice pictures indeed! The Horizon Express shown above is not largely owerpowered since it will have to manage inclinations up to 8 percent and a total altitude difference of 175 cm! And a High Speed Track of 2x25 meters ... See also my topic "9V Extreme - Power Supply"

What do you mean by turning two controllers in synch? Somebody from the US once told me that this is not possible.

How many multiple connections can you use at most for a single transformer? Are there specific devices for multiple connection of such tiny wires? I believe the double high speed track is probably the easiest part, two transformers with 5-6 connections for each track. But the question mark remains re. the inclinations. Would two transformers with 5 connections be enough to pull up a 4 engine powered Horizon Express 20 meters from level 0 to level +1? I probably need 4 separate transformers for independant control. Having read the pro´s and con´s re. LDCC, I am not so convinced that the pro´s overweigh the con´s in this case. There will be no need to operate multiple trains on the same track. No need to send signals to other units or switches. In fact, the layout is so complex - with some substantial risks as well given the high altitude and a number of narrow 180 degree curves - which require full attention and focus on the unit that is running the track with inclinations - especially downhill! To run a separate train on the second high speed track is not such a big challenge. Neither to run a third unit on a separate track between level -1 and level 0. In addition, I have now 50 9V engines and I really would like to operate all train units on this new track. Installing 50 decoders in 50 engines...? At what cost - and with what benefit? I forgot to ask you about your comment regarding serving 9V engines and lubrication. Do you need a special lubricant for these kind of engines? Some of my engines are more than 15 years old and really should be served. Where do you live in Sweden? Are you a member of Swebrick?

The DCC concept is new to me so I need to learn more about it. Any suggestion where I can find information for a "non-pro"? The track will include 6 standard switches, 6 halfcurve switches and 4 crossover switches (whereof two operated electrically since they will be out of reach). Almost half of the switches are used for train yards on level 0 and level -1. With these switches, I would be able to run 3 trains independantly without DCC, just using standard 9V trafos. To run more than 1 train will require more hands and more attention - especially for downhill operations! - so I would need assistance in such case. But I see no problem tu run one train myself from "basement" all the way up and all the way down again, a total length of more than 100 meters. I looked at a "worst case scenario" using only 9V trafos. Using connection wires every 8 - 10 meters would require approx. 16 trafos (which I already have). These could be placed on a double shelf about mid-wall and grouped in a smart way.The key challenge are the 8 % inclinations from level 0 to level +1, a total one way length of approx. 20 meters. This would mean that you "follow" the train and use 3 - 4 trafos sequentially. Would that be enough to get the Horizon Express with 4 engines "all the way up to the top"? (On my previous display - see Brickshelf, DaRePo - with similar inclinations but shorter track length, I had no problem to get a 4 engine powered Santa Fe train all the way up to the hill using only 2 trafos simultaneously). Once the train is at level +2 ( a plane high speed track) I could probably operate the train by managing 2-3 trafos simultaneously. Probably cheaper, but will it work? I would certainly have to replace the connection wires with stronger wires since the distance from trafo to connection point will be somewhere between 2 - 6 meters, 4 trafos up to 10 meters. To run trains on this display will require a driving license no matter which solution I choose ...

I recently built a double Horizon Express with two extra waggons. The train is equipped with four 9V engines. This is a real high-speed train - not just from a design point of view ...