Toastie

Hi Alex, (I am trying to have the Dacta Control lab thread of Brian untangled, let's see what happens) with regard to the additional 5V supply required for some of the parallel port/9750 combos using the method you describe above: For my PoweredUp/TC "coupling", I used the permanent ~4V DC output from 9750 to supply 9V DC to the Technic hub with the help of miniature step-up-converter (https://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?/forums/topic/194832-lego-technic-control-tc-1986-meets-lego-poweredup-pup-2019-bridging-a-30-years-lego-technic-electronics-“gap”). Now, I believe you can either use the 4V DC directly to power the opto-couplers of 9750 directly, i.e., feeding that power into 1+3 (+) and any of the even pins (GND). This way, you won't need an external power supply. This "violates" TLGs approach of not exposing any 9750 voltage to the controlling computer or interface card, but whatever. Should that voltage not be high enough, the little step-up-converter would easily do it, as it produces the 9V DC for the hub without any problems. Not that it makes any difference, it would just look cool ;) Best, Thorsten

With a hardware device that features Bluetooth low energy (BLE) functionality, as this is what PoweredUp/Control+/whatever name is using as communication means. This device can be i) a cell phone/tablet (TLG wants you to use) running LEGO software, ii) a computer/tablet - in that case PyBricks is one popular software to access/program the hubs via web interface, iii) a microcontroller, e.g., a board that features an ESP32 wroom module running Legoino, and iv) other alternatives that I am unaware of but bet there are. The major difference between PyBricks and Legoino is that the code you compose in PyBricks is downloaded to the hub and then runs autonomously on the hub, whereas Legoino runs the code on the microcontroller board autonomously, which sends and receives data via BLE to/from the hub - sort of intelligent hub remote control, as you can use built-in hub features such as speed control and the like. As far as I know, others may know much more on this!!! Best, Thorsten

@Jim Hi Jim, sorry for bothering you but @evank and most prominently I have seriously derailed this thread, @BatteryPoweredBricks opened - which is meant to address and discuss Dacta Control Lab stuff. Quick question, if we open a new thread dealing with "ancient hardware controlling ancient 9750 (Interface A) using ancient software (everything <1990 or so), would it be possible that you (or other moderators move all entries wrongly placed here (that is all posts including and after this one https://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?/forums/topic/67665-dacta-control-lab-software/&amp;do=findComment&amp;comment=3633756) to that new thread? Thanks in advance + best regards, Thorsten

Ahh, I see. That includes QBasic and QuickBasic from Microsoft as well, doesn't it? Both are from the time of TC - and both run on an IBM XT with 256 kByte of memory. This is the configuration I have: IBM XT (5160) with CGA, parallel, serial cards; in addition it has a 9771 card. The QuickBasic program I wrote for this combo works flawlessly with 9750; it can't do PWM at the 125 Hz pace (1kHz resolution) as TCLogo does, since the Basic code is simply too slow on an IBM XT - as is IBM Basic. This program (running on the original IBM XT, 4.77 MHz, 8088 CPU) can do the communication with 9750 via 9771, the parallel (with the cable @alexGS has described (https://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?/forums/topic/192941-lego-interface-a-97509771-–-lego-technic-control-1-tc1-referenceideas-thread/&amp;do=findComment&amp;comment=3581909), and serial ports (with an Arduino, so that is out of the challenge) as summarized here: https://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?/forums/topic/192941-lego-interface-a-97509771-–-lego-technic-control-1-tc1-referenceideas-thread/&amp;do=findComment&amp;comment=3619101. You simply select your communication hardware by pressing "X" repeatedly and then "space bar" to find out, whether 9750 is present on the respective card - or not. So IBM XT + 9771 and or + parallel card should be along the challenge rules, right? Next question is: If I can get the Atari 1040 STFM with only a custom cable operating 9750, would that count as well? All the best, Thorsten

This is an incredibly nice mechanism and solution! I love pneumatics, and yes everything needs to line up precisely, otherwise bad things will happen, as you said! Cool Back in the days, when encoders were hardly found in LEGO motors (the RCX era and before) such precise alignments were also possible using the light sensors and a light of course (https://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?/forums/topic/154740-moc-lego-switch-drive-controller/) All the best, Thorsten

Challenge accepted :D (I believe we are in the wrong thread here, aren't we? Don't know ...) Regarding the control of Interface A (9750): What works as well in addition to the references you are listing on the 6.php page on your website is using the serial port of >any< computer, modern, semi modern or vintage with a little extra, an Arduino Nano (or any other of the smallest microcontroller boards put there featuring programmable 8 I/O ports). Even TCLogo in the serial port version @alexGS made as well, runs on a Win11 machine using DOSBox-X as vintage PC emulator. The modern machines can do that via USB2Serial ports - they are still addressable as classical COM ports. References are on EB. I used QBasic 1.1 for direct (as interpreter) interaction with 9750 as well as QuickBasic 4.5; with the latter I made a EXE/COM files which run on an original IBM XT using its parallel port, serial port as well as via 9771 - you can select the I/O route within the program. These run as well on a 1998 Toshiba 4090 laptop with serial and parallel port, and as said on modern Win machines w/DOSBox-X emulator. Files are all on Bricksafe and are discussed here on EB as well. With regard to the Atari: I recently talked and listened to 9750 using GFABasic on an Atari 1040 ST(FM); needed to first fit the Atari with a Gotek to get some software running (GFABasic, C, PASCAL) and study its hardware a bit. The VT52 emulator on the Atari lets you also talk (and listen) to 9750 - with the help of my little Arduino board running a 5 line C++ "code" . Oh, just for fun: I ran PCDitto (a DOS emulator) on my Atari - then ran my DOS 9750 control program made for the IBM XT on it; gues what: When suing the serial port communication, it talked to 9750 as well - but super slow. I am currently investigating the Atari's parallel port capabilities, which are a bit "different" from the classical "Centronics" configuration. Of particular interest in the GFABasic access via OUT/IN addressing. It appears as if the ST can read and write from/to that port, which in turn raises the question, whether the outputs are latched or not; if not then a read request may change the outputs; and apparently this is also happening because TOS does that frequently. In that case, either a 9771 analog TTL latch approach or an Arduino Uno will do the trick; I'd simply use hat one for latching the parallel data provided at the Atari printer port (in and out). Again, with about 5 line of C++ "code" ... So as said challenge accepted. I am travelling for three weeks - shall think about this and that during that time, and upon my return look further into the Atari world. BTW, the ZX Spectrum, which controls already my train layout, should also be well suited to talk to 9750. Fro sure via it's serial port. All the best, Thorsten

Very nice discussion(s) in this thread! However electronics never drives up the "price tag". In the world we are living in, it cannot. Even when you subtract the development costs ... when selling the product in a "mass" market (and a whopping 0.1% fraction of TLGs sales is still a massive mass market). No, the company selling the electronic device(s) can. It is not the electronics in PUp devices, it is the company selling these - making a fortune out of selling these. As simple as that. Another TLG masterpiece: "Sets like the new Liebherr are so expensive because of the electronics". Sorry, I really don't think so. Introducing a new "electronic" system? Phew. That would require to be able to sell these in mass products. Bat stuff. And all the other super selling products. All the best, Thorsten

Well, size matters ... but you are right of course, Tried to be funny ... It is beautiful, though. Best, Thorsten

May I add (carefully): "The problems have become:" The list is to the point ... It is what it is ... Best, Thorsten

What about 75827 Firehouse Headquarters? Best, Thorsten

You're right. That "tacitly" was missing. And it is more like "largely tolerated". The instruction booklet for the Robokit set (set = cartridge for the Atari STs and software on one diskette) makes references to Atari (at that time, the company selling the kit was apparently not (yet) acquired by Atari UK), Digital Research Corporation and The LEGO group in the legals section; the entire instructions shown are for LEGO models built from the LEGO Dacta sets of that time (1090, 1092 etc.) - no other construction material despite for the home brew sensors is used. In one sentence, "Fischertechnik" and "wood" is suggested as well as alternative building material, but is not used for any of the robots and other builds shown in the booklet. Technic and System bricks only. This is why I thought: TLG must have seen this - and they never complained. But as you said: They apparently tacitly endorsed it - for sure. Still looking for videos the guys marketing Robokit took back then. There are many references in forum entries, websites and text documents, but all interesting links - so far - are broken. The Wayback Machine is of some help, but not with regard to official endorsements ;) Best regards and looking very much forward to updates on your website!!! Thorsten

I do share this notion 100%. Recently joined an Atari Forum to ask about Win11 COM port access within the Atari "Hatari" emulator, so that I can program something using GFABasic to access 9750 via the Atari's serial port. Won't work, but I do have an Atari 1040 STFM which works flawlessly; it has a GoTek as drive 0, the internal floppy as drive 1 (there is a nice pad on the PCB you can use to make that change with a switch). And it does talk flawlessly to 9750 via my little ArduinoNano serial2parallel converter I used before. Not the point: There seems to be a "once upon a time" period, when even TLG was OK with doing things, that are nowadays unthinkable: Using tin foil, all sorts of wires, to make custom sensors and the like. I love that. In the Atari world, this hardware/software combo is called Atari Robokit. When you google this, you get the manual, PCB layout, and much more for the device to attach to one of the Atari ports: The thing is: LEGO apparently endorsed this approach - using the 4.5V wires and a screwdriver to pop off the plugs, screw them to the Atari Robokit board, which is so much more flexible than any pure TLG solution ... This is true TLG philosophy: Make what is needed to satisfy your demands. But after 1990 this philosophy fell into oblivion. For today's purists, that is. Back then, it was OK. And still pure, as it seems. BTW: When you follow that video link and look around, there is so much more. Best, Thorsten

Safely within margins of errors/manufacturing! Nice calculation, appreciate that. OK, I was wrong on the period 7, block f elements in the core ... Best wishes, Thorsten

Yup. Then check with high density ABS (or other high density plastic material) properties. Water will not do any damage, ;) at least when the core is safely enclosed. Yes, not meant to be taken seriously. Will I buy a $700 set? Never. Ever. Not even with that core in the weights Best, Thorsten

I wonder who they'll put the blame on ... is there some anti-crane organization out there?

1. Café Corner 2. Parisian Restaurant. Because I have them - and won't get anymore - running out of space. So ranking is easy Best, Thorsten

I won't be of any help here, but just this: Speed vs power control would result in exactly the contrary result. 1) Using speed control: If the motor (at low initial power setting) cannot reach the speed you want, then the hub increases power = PWM level (= on vs off time = more on time) and I'd expect wheel slip rather than motor stalling. Control means that the firmware monitors the rpm of the motor. When too low = not correct speed, then increase power = on vs off ratio towards more on time. And vice versa. 2) Using power "control": This is a selected = fixed PWM level - there is no control. The firmware just applies a fixed on vs off time to the motor, regardless of speed, which changes with load. Now, when you cannot hear this hissing sound, then something is very odd. Does your WeDo motor produced that sound when using PUp firmware? The thing is, PWM means applying full DC voltage to the motor for a certain time and then go to zero voltage for another time. Rather quickly = generating that sound. As far as I know, none of the hardware available would allow reducing the voltage applied during a PWM on-time. But I may be wrong and others (like @Pybricks) have to switch on the light here. All the best + good luck, Thorsten

I have not figured out how, but I am inclined to take that route with the 4.5V Technic Control stuff from 1986/7: "It is 4.5V. Thanks for watching." And then Interface A controls a 4.5V train - with a little help ... OK, once I retire, that is. Give me 5.5 more years You know, a lot of people don't believe me when I am claiming "5.5 more years, and I'm out" - not because of no ideas anymore regarding research, but so many other ideas regarding LEGO - OK and regarding the house, and the pets (hack, cats and dog), and the ... whatever. Not including my wife: I simply love her. All the best, Thorsten

And that is the - in my opinion - very big difference. Valuing honesty over support of a dedicated audience is a major step forward, as far as I am concerned. There is absolutely nothing wrong with getting support. However, throughout my entire research life (> 35 years), I have learned that constructive criticism teaches me so much more and is so much more valuable than any "cool stuff" or any "this is crap" reviews I got after submitting my research proposals. LEGO is not research, but it is the exact same approach when posting in a mature and knowledgeable forum, as EB is: Learning, refining, appreciating, improving, having fun, teasing, challenging, accepting, arguing, and so on and so forth. This is why I am here (and nowhere else) and why I am enjoying contributions from you and others, and reading the comments - and sometimes replying. And learning a lot. All the best, Thorsten

Sorry for the late reply - I instantly became unconscious, when reading a "few dozens" Best Thorsten

I agree 100% to all you said. I am not a Technic person - love Technic though, love the studs, love playing with ABS they way TLG is molding it. Not only that, but I am even more so into "controlling" things with (simple) computers and some home-brew solutions. When the RCX came out in 1998, it got me into full TLG gear again, after almost 25 years of "pausing". Two things I's like to add: The PoweredUp (Control+, all the same) stuff is expensive because TLG makes it expensive AND people are buying it. In the mass production sets, that is. The electronics inside PUp is next to dead cheap - nothing fancy at all. Oh, I can hear them: It was so expensive developing this technology, these devices, and what not. Sure it was, but so is developing other electronics as well - the PUp devices are simply so overpriced - it hurts. Even more so, when you open them up ... not the point: TLG gets not only away with it, they make a ton of money because we are buying that stuff. Yes, I also believe PUp/C+ will simply sink sooner or later - but this is what it is, in the real world. Your Control Centers are so much more in line with the philosophy of "living forever" - that is why I recently began to play with 4.5V Technic Control stuff from around 1985. Motivated by folks like @evank , @alexGS. 35+ years old and still working fine. Controlled by a PC from that time or with the help of dead cheap Arduinos and the like now, in 2023. 9V, PF the same, but the latter less so regarding the "autonomous control" world but rather the "remote control" world. All the best, Thorsten

Well, felt the same ... Best, Thorsten

I totally agree, Emanuele, the scene is really nice, and the colors are fantastic. As I am struggling a bit with colors - this really is colorful for me. And: A very, very nice diorama! Best, Thorsten

Technic Control. 1986. (The 4.5V stuff with wires going to the controlling computer) Maybe a 9V upgrade - or the equivalent of 1.2V x 6 = 7.2V when using LiPo or NiMH rechargeables) - wires are still the thing when running some sensitive equipment. There is no BT or BLE or any other sort of wireless gadgets, when it comes to true technic control. Too much sniffing - and too many microwave ovens ... Best, Thorsten

That would ring all the bells of "DON'T CLICK", there is "lock-in", "price", and "guarantee". Was it actually in reverse "colors"? (Yes, I know, black is not a color) Whatever. 2 weeks from now and I will (for the n'th time, knowing it is more than stupid to pay that price) visit LEGO's Billund place - no shittin around there, just enjoying the old stuff - again and again. Best, Thorsten