[MOC] My LEGO Renfe S-130

[Imanol]

38 minutes ago, Phil B said:

Not directly related to solving any of the problems you are facing with this build, but for me this is the magic of building trains in LEGO: Often you are stumped on a problem, which seems unovercomeable .... and then your brain starts working overtime. Maybe after doing something else for a while, maybe after a few nights of sleep, something will come into your head that allows you to think about the problem differently and unlocks you ... and you can move on until you hit the next roadblock.

Many examples here of people who have been working on a train build for many years - either waiting for the right pieces to be produced by LEGO, or just tinkering over-and-over until things are just right.

Keep on keeping on, @Imanol!

Thank you for the words. I have had previous "light bulb" moments that have made possible other trains and even cases of delaying so much the solution that the right piece was produced.

I know at some point I will find the issue like when I previously discovered why the bricks were cracking but the main trouble is that I don´t know how much time I will have starting on september so that´s definetely not helping

[L-Gauger]

On 8/20/2025 at 4:15 AM, Imanol said:

Well, yesterday I continued doing testing and I was able to rig my phone to move with the train and film the gear on the bogie axle. After reviewing the videos I noticed that the gear was moving constantly and that there wasn´t any wheelslip.

That's very good news! Your weight for the train is likely sufficient, then. 

On 8/20/2025 at 4:15 AM, Imanol said:

But at the same time, I was able to see on the hub that the low voltage indicator was coming on constantly (even though the batteries are new) and when reaching a switch the train was stuck and not moving at all.

Okay. I think that means that your motor is operating at its maximum load capacity. Does this happen when you run the power car all by itself, minus the rest of the train? 

Maybe some plastic-safe hobby oil (like for conventional model trains) in the Technic brick holes where the cross-axles pass through them would help some. 

Also, at this point I'd try to test your motors and hubs outside of this locomotive model. Maybe build a test platform where you use whatever bricks you have available (window pieces maybe?) to attach the PUP hub atop the train motor, and run that around on your tracks a little bit. If your motor can't even carry the weight of its own PUP hub through a switch with nothing else, you might have a defective motor or hub. 

On 8/20/2025 at 4:15 AM, Imanol said:

I also tried putting the other hub with batteries on top of the rear axle (adding like 120 grams) but it didn´t change anything.

Perfect. It sounds like wheelslip isn't your problem, so no need to change anything there. 

On 8/20/2025 at 4:15 AM, Imanol said:

The only time I experienced the wheelslip was when trying to reverse the train after getting stuck on the switch although the motor stopped turning almost immediately.

Gotcha. I wouldn't worry about that. 

On 8/20/2025 at 4:15 AM, Imanol said:

When I first received the motors I did a bit of testing with the previous setup which included using the train motor in the front bogie and even though the problem wasn´t as big I already noticed that it was struggling to pull the 3 cars although there wasn´t much issue traversing the switch apart from the rear of the train derailing due to the low weight and lack of guidance.

I see. Have you thought about trying to use the train motor as the rear bogie? I've noticed that I get more tractive effort out of my train motors when they are on the rear bogie of a locomotive as opposed to the front. 

 

On 8/20/2025 at 4:15 AM, Imanol said:

Looking at the data I think the difference in performance between both motors is negligible and I don´t know if I want to take the risk and end up having the same trouble. 

Huh. I don't know about the PUP train motor, maybe it's stronger than the PF one, but in my experience the PF M motor is that it can outpull multiple PF train motors. When I was converting my 10277 Crocodile Locomotive set to PF, at first I used two train motors power the drive wheels directly. The locomotive would barely move under its own power, let alone pull a train. I replaced the pair of train motors with a single PF M motor, and now my Crocodile is one of my favorite engines I have because with the PF M motor it runs and pulls great. 

I do understand not wanting to take such a big financial risk, though. Let's see if we can't get those PUP motors to work for you. 

On 8/20/2025 at 4:15 AM, Imanol said:

Looking at the stats for the motors on here: https://motors.sariel.pl/ it looks like the 88013 has much more torque but very low rpm so it might be quite slower.

That's true of all the non-train motors in the PUP and PF range, to my knowledge. For me as a US modeler slow and strong is perfect, but for you that might not be as realistic. 

On 8/20/2025 at 4:15 AM, Imanol said:

The fact that it can only be controlled by the app will make this impossible to control so I think this option might need to the discarded entirely

I agree, you should focus your efforts on the PUP train motor for that reason. 

On 8/20/2025 at 4:15 AM, Imanol said:

the only way I found to do that is to connect both hubs directly to the remote so I need them in different channels to make them go in opposite directions. If anyone has any idea how to solve this, it will be greatly appreciated.

Okay, so my solution for this would be mechanical: your two power cars need not be internally identical. Use your motors as the rear bogie ( the one not under the driver cab) of the forward-facing power car, and the front bogie (the one under the driver cab) of the rearward-facing power car. This way both motors will face the same direction at all times, and can be connected to the same Bluetooth channel. 

On 8/20/2025 at 4:15 AM, Imanol said:

For now I will try to make modify the studio model to see if I can add the train motor on the front without requiring a new piece order and if possible test with this setup in both powercars and see if it´s enough. 

Not a bad idea. See if it's possible to face the motor either direction or if only one orientation is possible in this setup. 

On 8/20/2025 at 4:15 AM, Imanol said:

Right now the hard line will be with replacing the rear bogie as is not only the side detail that needs to be removed as the entire rear connection that will need to be changed to make way for another motor changing the appearance of the train quite a lot.

 

Gotcha. That makes sense. Good idea trying the least drastic change first. 

7 hours ago, Imanol said:

This is something that can be used but I don´t know how much will improve as the passenger train cars are built with the 38339 wheel holder instead which in theory doesn´t have as much friction.

It depends. The PUP wheelsets (38339) you are using do have less resistance to curves, but in fact they have a bit more friction than PF and 9V era wheelsets, because PUP wheelsets have plastic-on-plastic bearings as opposed to PF and 9V wheelsets which are metal-on-plastic. Technically 9V wheelsets are the lowest friction that Lego has made, but PF wheelsets are a close second. 

7 hours ago, Imanol said:

Apart from that the only thing I can try is to look for a way of building a one bogie "shunter" to try and pull the cars but I won´t be able to make anything close to the size of the current power car.

 

I'd try this for the sole purpose of making sure your motors work and aren't defective. If you don't rule out that possibility you might be making revisions to little avail. 

Hopefully these thoughts help! 

[idlemarvel]

On 8/20/2025 at 10:15 AM, Imanol said:

The issue of trying to connect two hubs either with Pybricks software or with the LEGO app will create a lot of trouble as the only way I found to do that is to connect both hubs directly to the remote so I need them in different channels to make them go in opposite directions. If anyone has any idea how to solve this, it will be greatly appreciated.

You can definitely connect the Lego app to two hubs at the same time, in fact up to four. One or more of those four can be a remote. You can refer to my online book for details on how.

If you use the remote, one simple way to make the motor attached to the second hub to go in reverse is to attach it to port B and then invert the port B control on the remote. You need to be careful to press buttons A and B at the same time when driving the train. A bit tricky but no coding required!

[zephyr1934]

Duh! Oh yeah, Talgo... but you could still power both "locomotives"

 

23 hours ago, Imanol said:

This is something that can be used but I don´t know how much will improve as the passenger train cars are built with the 38339 wheel holder instead which in theory doesn´t have as much friction.

Oh no, 38339 are pretty bad in terms of resistance and friction. Technic axles using 55423c01 are worse, but that isn't saying much. Part 2878 is a lot better, but ball bearing wheels are far better than any of the official lego train wheels.

I had a lot of problems with the superliner train that is in my avatar after I first built it- long and heavy. I had to either use an s-brick or v2 IR receiver to move it and I had to approach standard R40 curves at high power to get through them (while being careful to only run on square layouts so that the train was always in either one or two curves to keep it from going too fast between curves). When I switched to ball bearing wheels it works fine with a normal PF IR receiver.

At any rate, I THINK a PF or PU L motor is a lot more powerful than the corresponding train motor. So that is another possible path to try. But keep watching for wheel slip, if the wheels are slipping it doesn't matter how powerful the motor is.

 

 

 

[Imanol]

18 hours ago, L-Gauger said:

That's very good news! Your weight for the train is likely sufficient, then. 

Okay. I think that means that your motor is operating at its maximum load capacity. Does this happen when you run the power car all by itself, minus the rest of the train? 

Maybe some plastic-safe hobby oil (like for conventional model trains) in the Technic brick holes where the cross-axles pass through them would help some. 

Also, at this point I'd try to test your motors and hubs outside of this locomotive model. Maybe build a test platform where you use whatever bricks you have available (window pieces maybe?) to attach the PUP hub atop the train motor, and run that around on your tracks a little bit. If your motor can't even carry the weight of its own PUP hub through a switch with nothing else, you might have a defective motor or hub. 

I'd try this for the sole purpose of making sure your motors work and aren't defective. If you don't rule out that possibility you might be making revisions to little avail. 

I have continued with the testing and have some new and partially good information. First, I have tried making the scrapiest possible "locomotive" to test the motor and it was suffering from the same issue when reaching a switch pulling the 3 cars. 

Then I decided to try and pull the other locomotive (without the gearing) as it weighed the same to test if the problem was on the cars or in the power car itself. The result was the same as with previous tests with the motor struggling to pull on the straight track and failing to traverse the switch. At the same time I also tried pulling ony two cars and the results was the same.

This leaves me with the conclusion that the motor looks to be underpowered and it doesn´t look like they are faulty as part of the tests have been carried out with the other motor and hub.

18 hours ago, L-Gauger said:

I see. Have you thought about trying to use the train motor as the rear bogie? I've noticed that I get more tractive effort out of my train motors when they are on the rear bogie of a locomotive as opposed to the front. 

I haven´t tried using the motor itself on the rear bogie as the only designs that I tested were with the motor in the front bogie (with the previous power car frame) and now with the geared bogie connected to the motor on the rear axle

 

18 hours ago, L-Gauger said:

Huh. I don't know about the PUP train motor, maybe it's stronger than the PF one, but in my experience the PF M motor is that it can outpull multiple PF train motors. When I was converting my 10277 Crocodile Locomotive set to PF, at first I used two train motors power the drive wheels directly. The locomotive would barely move under its own power, let alone pull a train. I replaced the pair of train motors with a single PF M motor, and now my Crocodile is one of my favorite engines I have because with the PF M motor it runs and pulls great. 

I do understand not wanting to take such a big financial risk, though. Let's see if we can't get those PUP motors to work for you. 

Right now, it looks very likely that the next step might be to order a bigger motor and see if it can work although it will require a redesign of the inside as I don´t see how I can make it fit right now.

Fortunately the money is not the bigger issue, it´s the fact that it might not work and then find myself with multiple "useless" motors and back to square one.

18 hours ago, L-Gauger said:

It depends. The PUP wheelsets (38339) you are using do have less resistance to curves, but in fact they have a bit more friction than PF and 9V era wheelsets, because PUP wheelsets have plastic-on-plastic bearings as opposed to PF and 9V wheelsets which are metal-on-plastic. Technically 9V wheelsets are the lowest friction that Lego has made, but PF wheelsets are a close second. 

This is something which I might need more data about as right now I don´t have any way of knowing how much difference there is in friction in each case although i doubt this will be the key of the problem

18 hours ago, idlemarvel said:

You can definitely connect the Lego app to two hubs at the same time, in fact up to four. One or more of those four can be a remote. You can refer to my online book for details on how.

Looks like at some point I might need to take my time and understand the app. 

18 hours ago, idlemarvel said:

If you use the remote, one simple way to make the motor attached to the second hub to go in reverse is to attach it to port B and then invert the port B control on the remote. You need to be careful to press buttons A and B at the same time when driving the train. A bit tricky but no coding required!

That was the way I used to make the first tests and it wasn´t much difficult although if I keep the gears I might invert one of the bogies to avoid needing to do that

1 hour ago, zephyr1934 said:

Duh! Oh yeah, Talgo... but you could still power both "locomotives"

Well, that´s the problem, both locomotives are already powered. As I said right now I don´t have enough pieces to "fix" both locomotives but I have been doing tests with one of them and half the load and I´m still suffering the same issues.

1 hour ago, zephyr1934 said:

Oh no, 38339 are pretty bad in terms of resistance and friction. Technic axles using 55423c01 are worse, but that isn't saying much. Part 2878 is a lot better, but ball bearing wheels are far better than any of the official lego train wheels.

I had a lot of problems with the superliner train that is in my avatar after I first built it- long and heavy. I had to either use an s-brick or v2 IR receiver to move it and I had to approach standard R40 curves at high power to get through them (while being careful to only run on square layouts so that the train was always in either one or two curves to keep it from going too fast between curves). When I switched to ball bearing wheels it works fine with a normal PF IR receiver.

At any rate, I THINK a PF or PU L motor is a lot more powerful than the corresponding train motor. So that is another possible path to try. But keep watching for wheel slip, if the wheels are slipping it doesn't matter how powerful the motor is.

Right now, it looks like the key might be looking for new axles (maybe order the one with bearings) for the unpowered bogie and then try and fit a PU L motor which might not require much modifications to be done. I still need to check if there is a simple way of attaching the motor but it looks easy enough.

 

At the same time I want to inform that even though the problem hasn´t been solved there has been major advances. For example, I tried moving the other power car (without any modifications) and the gearing mechanism failed instantly even without applying power. Unfortunately I don´t have enough pieces to make the necessary changes on both powercars so I won´t be able to test it.

Thanks, Imanol

Edited August 22 by Imanol
Rearrangement

[Imanol]

Okay, I think I have found a "solution" to the issue which is much simpler (and stupid) that anything else. After all of the issues that were raised about the 38339 wheels I decided to try and reduce their friction with the only thing I could get a hold off at home, which is olive oil. So after applying a bit of oil on both the wheels and their holders I have been able to move the train past a switch with the powercar pulling 3 other cars.

Of course this was only a temporary solution and I will order bearing wheelsets but for now I know that with that might be enough. At the same time (and due to the applying method) I have experienced wheelslip although I hope that will only be temporary. 

So right now I´m going to change the main focus to redesigning the wheels on the cars to be able to use bearings and replace all of the wheels in the train with them. Apart from that I will also order the required pieces to fix the bogie gear issues but for now I will keep the motors as it looks that right now they might be able to work just fine.

Also I´m wondering if changing the 38339 for the 2878 (with metal axles) will be enough or if it´s better to use bearings on all of the axles.

I will keep you updated as I´m going to wait a few hours to see if the oil on the flanges disappears and the wheelslip stops.

Thanks for all the help, Imanol

Edited August 25 by Imanol
Adding another line to the message

[L-Gauger]

On 8/24/2025 at 5:56 AM, Imanol said:

Okay, I think I have found a "solution" to the issue which is much simpler (and stupid) that anything else. After all of the issues that were raised about the 38339 wheels I decided to try and reduce their friction with the only thing I could get a hold off at home, which is olive oil. So after applying a bit of oil on both the wheels and their holders I have been able to move the train past a switch with the powercar pulling 3 other cars.

Hooray! Good to hear it was just a friction issue. 

On 8/24/2025 at 5:56 AM, Imanol said:

Also I´m wondering if changing the 38339 for the 2878 (with metal axles) will be enough or if it´s better to use bearings on all of the axles.

If oiling the 38339 did the job, my personal guess is that part 2878 will do the job. My recommendation though would be to only by wheelsets in "New" condition for your train, as new wheelsets are lower-friction than older, worn wheelsets. Hopefully the simple substitution of 2878 for 38339 will save you the work of rebuilding all the wheelsets to use roller bearings, as that would be a much more significant modification. 

Also, if you decide to oil your wheelsets as a matter of practice (might not be a bad idea,) sometimes they sell plastic-safe lube oil as "clock oil" instead of "hobby oil." Just make sure the oil you buy is labeled as safe to use on plastic. If it isn't, don't buy it, not worth the risk. If you can't find any though, I've never heard bad things about using olive oil as a general-purpose lubricant. 

[zephyr1934]

On 8/24/2025 at 6:56 AM, Imanol said:

Also I´m wondering if changing the 38339 for the 2878 (with metal axles) will be enough or if it´s better to use bearings on all of the axles.

Maybe. But if the price is similar I'd suggest going to ball bearings. In my comments about fixing my heavy Superliners, I went from 2878 (modified even further with notches to ensure the flanges didn't rub on the frame) to ball bearing wheels and it made a huge difference.

It is still a little bizarre to set a train car with ball bearing wheels down on what you thought was flat track, look away and then look back to see that the car has quietly rolled away to find the low spot in the track. The ball bearing wheels also change how you run a heavy train, you can't just hit the stop button to cut power and expect the train to stop, the momentum of the cars will keep pushing the locomotive, so you have to slow a little more gradually.

Somewhere in the EB train tech archives from 5-10 years ago there are some good quantitative comparisons between 2878 and ball bearings, then more recently, between 2878 and 38339. 

 

[Imanol]

10 hours ago, L-Gauger said:

Hooray! Good to hear it was just a friction issue. 

If oiling the 38339 did the job, my personal guess is that part 2878 will do the job. My recommendation though would be to only by wheelsets in "New" condition for your train, as new wheelsets are lower-friction than older, worn wheelsets. Hopefully the simple substitution of 2878 for 38339 will save you the work of rebuilding all the wheelsets to use roller bearings, as that would be a much more significant modification. 

Also, if you decide to oil your wheelsets as a matter of practice (might not be a bad idea,) sometimes they sell plastic-safe lube oil as "clock oil" instead of "hobby oil." Just make sure the oil you buy is labeled as safe to use on plastic. If it isn't, don't buy it, not worth the risk. If you can't find any though, I've never heard bad things about using olive oil as a general-purpose lubricant. 

Okay, right now my idea is to buy one set of wheels with bearings for the front bogie of the powercars which were already designed for it and the change the wheels in the train cars for the 2878. I might look at some lube oil but I might need to be more careful applying as I´m still having issues with wheelslip as I accidentally covered the wheel flanges with oil and it´s not very easy to clean. 

For now, I haven´t been able to move the train without the wheels slipping although I don´t know if this is caused only by the oil or it might be something else so I will continue testing and see if I can solve it. 

6 hours ago, zephyr1934 said:

Maybe. But if the price is similar I'd suggest going to ball bearings. In my comments about fixing my heavy Superliners, I went from 2878 (modified even further with notches to ensure the flanges didn't rub on the frame) to ball bearing wheels and it made a huge difference.

It is still a little bizarre to set a train car with ball bearing wheels down on what you thought was flat track, look away and then look back to see that the car has quietly rolled away to find the low spot in the track. The ball bearing wheels also change how you run a heavy train, you can't just hit the stop button to cut power and expect the train to stop, the momentum of the cars will keep pushing the locomotive, so you have to slow a little more gradually.

Somewhere in the EB train tech archives from 5-10 years ago there are some good quantitative comparisons between 2878 and ball bearings, then more recently, between 2878 and 38339. 

 

The price might be similar but right now my main concern is if the bearings are available in Europe as all of the ones that I have found come from the US so I don´t know if right now they can be shipped. Also the use of bearings relies entirely on the possibility of being able to take apart the assembly as there isn´t any other way of incorporating it to my design.

The part about the train suddenly moving concerns me the most as right now the train is located at 1.5 m over the floor on top of a drawer chest with no barriers on either side so I might need to make some type of buffer.

I hope I can solve any issues on the design today and maybe even make the piece order tomorrow

Thanks, Imanol

[zephyr1934]

On 8/26/2025 at 5:48 AM, Imanol said:

The price might be similar but right now my main concern is if the bearings are available in Europe as all of the ones that I have found come from the US so I don´t know if right now they can be shipped. Also the use of bearings relies entirely on the possibility of being able to take apart the assembly as there isn´t any other way of incorporating it to my design.

I think most of the US suppliers of ball bearing wheel sets use bricktracks wheels and axles, which are available in Europe here: https://habricks.com/product-category/wheels/ and ball bearing sets sourced from outside of the US (probably China)

[Imanol]

On 8/28/2025 at 7:37 AM, zephyr1934 said:

I think most of the US suppliers of ball bearing wheel sets use bricktracks wheels and axles, which are available in Europe here: https://habricks.com/product-category/wheels/ and ball bearing sets sourced from outside of the US (probably China)

Well, I´ve finally made the piece order and apart from almost forgetting all of the metal axles (thanks to the seller for allowing me to modify the order after being placed) everything should be fine and I´m expecting to receive it over the next weeks. I will update it when I receive everything and hopefully everything will work fine.

Thanks for all the help, Imanol

[Imanol]

Hi everyone, for the first time in almost two years I can say that the S-130 is finished and is working as expected. Yesterday I finally received the bearing wheelsets and after fitting them to the train (and changing the hub batteries) everything worked as expected. 

Right now the only thing that is left is to finish cutting the axles for the close coupling articulation (right now there is a problem when taking curves) and reapplying the stickers. 

For now I want to thank all of you who have helped this project giving me ideas to solve small issues or in other cases redoing part of the cars  @Hod Carrier.

I hope that next week I will have the train ready for a photoshoot and I will post the official presentation of the train.

Right now I will leave here a video of the train running (apologies for the camera quality):

Thanks for all of the help, Imanol

[zephyr1934]

Congratulations!

[L-Gauger]

Hooray and Congratulations! All your design efforts have paid off! 

Out of curiosity, which wheelsets did you end up using - the 9v-era ones or the PF-era ones? 

[Imanol]

On 9/24/2025 at 2:51 AM, zephyr1934 said:

Congratulations!

Thank you 

16 hours ago, L-Gauger said:

Hooray and Congratulations! All your design efforts have paid off! 

Out of curiosity, which wheelsets did you end up using - the 9v-era ones or the PF-era ones? 

Thanks, the trailers have the 2878 RC wheels with the metal axles that are currently being produced by LEGO. On the powercars I used the bearing wheelsets from BrickTrainDepot

[L-Gauger]

5 hours ago, Imanol said:

Thanks, the trailers have the 2878 RC wheels with the metal axles that are currently being produced by LEGO.

So the PF ones, where the metal axles are blunt on the ends and the hole for the metal axle doesn't go all the way through the wheel? That's the kind I'm most familiar with. 

 

5 hours ago, Imanol said:

On the powercars I used the bearing wheelsets from BrickTrainDepot

Cool! I imagine that was a big help. 

[Imanol]

13 hours ago, L-Gauger said:

So the PF ones, where the metal axles are blunt on the ends and the hole for the metal axle doesn't go all the way through the wheel? That's the kind I'm most familiar with. 

Exactly

13 hours ago, L-Gauger said:

Cool! I imagine that was a big help. 

More than I imagined, I first did a test with only the PF metal axles and the train was constantly suffering from wheelslip issues even with only the locomotive. After changing the axles on the locomotive the train runs perfectly with no adherence problems

[L-Gauger]

10 hours ago, Imanol said:

More than I imagined, I first did a test with only the PF metal axles and the train was constantly suffering from wheelslip issues even with only the locomotive. After changing the axles on the locomotive the train runs perfectly with no adherence problems

Wow! That is a big difference!