Jump to content


"Hawk" cutter


  • Please log in to reply
11 replies to this topic  – Started by kurigan , Nov 01 2011 10:39 PM

#1 kurigan

kurigan
  • Fresh Pirate


    Posts: 343
    Joined: 25-February 10
    Member: 9706
    Country: USA

Posted 01 November 2011 - 10:39 PM

I hate to throw up another WIP before my other projects are done but I really could use some advice with this one. She was started as just a side project but took on a life of her own. Because they all can’t be pirate ships and men-of-war I was looking to make a simple merchant cutter. I started tearing apart my old Red Sloop and adding parts left over from other builds. I was aiming for something like THIS. What exactly isn’t right about her continues to elude me, but I can’t ignore that somehow she’s not quite right. Ignore the red decks, I haven’t tiles or plates enough to cover in a better color right now. I’m not fond of the Lego shrouds, though I liked my solution using the bull horns as turn buckles, I may change them to string tied ones later. Before I get to anything so intricate, I need to figure out what’s not quite right with the hull. Can anyone offer any constructive criticisms to help me out with this one?

Was
Posted Image

Now
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

More Here


#2 Admiral Croissant

Admiral Croissant
  • Popped his title cherry!


    Posts: 3029
    Joined: 03-December 08
    Member: 4578
    Country: Netherlands

Posted 02 November 2011 - 10:53 AM

Overall the ship looks quite good, but indeed there's something that can be improved.
I'm not sure what, but I actually think the problem is the masts/rigging.
If you look at your example picture, you'll see the bowsprit is pointed a bit upwards.
The mast also seems taller, and the mainsail is about twice as large as the main topsail.
Your mainsail is quite short, which makes the spanker short too, and that might give it a strange look.
I'm not sure, but you could change this and see how it looks.
Another thing is that on the example image, the stern is about twice as high above the water as the bow.

Good luck! :pir-classic:
Got questions? Need help? New member?                            
Read the site guidelines
Index of helpful tutorials

Posted Image
20 gun Frigate 'Vesta'
My Brickshelf
My Flickr
My Mocpages


#3 Hiawatha

Hiawatha

    Posts: 555
    Joined: 17-September 11
    Member: 20480
    Country: United States

Posted 03 November 2011 - 08:57 PM

Nice little boat! I like it so far. The second attempt is much better. Have fun finishing it! :pir-laugh:

Posted Image Posted Image

My Brickshelf


View Postefullner, on 06 October 2011 - 12:28 AM, said:

I can figure what Dey will say when he meets with Hiawatha.

Hiya, Watha!

#4 kurigan

kurigan
  • Fresh Pirate


    Posts: 343
    Joined: 25-February 10
    Member: 9706
    Country: USA

Posted 04 November 2011 - 01:13 AM

Admiral- As always good points. I agree with you on the masts and sails, but not at all sure how I’ll approach changing that. I think you hit on the real issue with the hull though. Although the image is a slightly larger vessel than mine, the shape is supposed to be about the same and raising the stern might be the solution. As for the bow sprit, many cutters like this do have them horizontal or nearly so, at least in a lot of the drawings and paintings I studied and it makes mounting it easier and more stable, so I think I’ll stick with it.


Hiawatha- yeah the original was “cute” but far from anything like a model. When I built it years ago I was just getting back in to Legos since “growing up”. I was building off the format of Classic Pirates as best I could with only a few bricks aiming for something like Caribbean Clipper. At the time I was pretty proud of her but didn’t feel she was quite up to snuff with the rest of my fleet as of late. Thanks for chiming in!



#5 kurigan

kurigan
  • Fresh Pirate


    Posts: 343
    Joined: 25-February 10
    Member: 9706
    Country: USA

Posted 17 January 2012 - 09:22 AM

I’ve been experimenting and working on my ship modeling theory as of late; having fallen ill over the holidays, I didn’t have the ware with all for much more. Pressing on with my “Hawk” project, as a prototype, I’ve not only made some adjustments to improve the cutter specifically, but began implementing some new ideas to improve, the look and accuracy of my string rigging in general. The first of which, I wish to show for consideration, is the use of 4624’s as “dead eyes”. Here they have been employed, much as they historically were, at the bottom of the shrouds, in order to better control their tension. Previously, I had a great deal of trouble creating proper tension using single lengths tied taught, only to have them pull lose their mounts or sag once their counter parts were in place. Having observed them so closely and intensely throughout the tedium of hand tying each one, I no longer feel I can objectively assess the visual plausibility of the end result. What say you, the Classic Pirates community? I also wonder if this was a truly unique idea on my part or if the nagging suspicion I harbor is correct, that these parts were displayed in such a use by a previous member, which likely inspired me?



Once the theory is well formed, the implementation is quite simple, though time consuming and does require patience, tweezers and very fine cordage. I use embroidery thread, found in any hobby or arts and craft store very inexpensively where I live. I wicked the ends with Elmer’s Glue, so they more readily pass through the narrow slits in the wheels. The two members were tied separately, the “dead eyes” (4624s) and mounting clips knotted in place, on a jig built of Lego bricks. They were then mounted in place and connected by the threading of the eyes. The slack was worked out with a pair of tweezers and the end tied off to the upper portion of the shroud with a half hitch above the “dead eye”. The assembly is about as close as I figure I can be to historically accurate, on this scale and in this medium. I’m just not sure if they look quite the thing.


Reference Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Edited by kurigan, 17 January 2012 - 09:29 AM.


#6 Foremast Jack

Foremast Jack

    Posts: 283
    Joined: 06-December 11
    Member: 22851
    Country: USA

Posted 17 January 2012 - 03:13 PM

-

I think they look great! With the ship I'm currently working on I was planning to use Posted Image. However, I think what you have here is far superior. I was somewhat disconcerted at the knowledge the lines would just be clumped together at the top or bottom of the bushing. So thanks for sharing your work and giving me a better idea. :pir-classic: [However, looking at your pictures the shrouds/back-stays should be farther aft. You have them mounted to the 10 stud length of section there; I'd say move back to far rear of the section and you'll be golden.)

I wanted to offer some thoughts on your first post about what isn't quite right about her overall look. What the Admiral said about the bowsprit and hull proportions are what first popped out to me as the biggest thing. Comparing them a second time I noticed that the mast in the reference photo is canted. So I think you need to angle the main mast to the aft like 10 degrees or so.

Edited by Admiral Croissant, 17 January 2012 - 04:05 PM.
Removed a long quote

"You don't make friends with the foremast jacks, lad.
They'll think you weak; despise you in the end."
                           - Captain Jack Aubrey

#7 Admiral Croissant

Admiral Croissant
  • Popped his title cherry!


    Posts: 3029
    Joined: 03-December 08
    Member: 4578
    Country: Netherlands

Posted 17 January 2012 - 04:07 PM

Foremast Jack, you make excellent comments, but if you reply to the post above yours, please don't quote.
In that case it's obvious on what post you reply and you don't get every post twice :pir-classic:

Kurigan, that's very clever.
I used the same things as the image in FJ's post, but wheels are nice too.
I learned from the Vesta that it's indeed very time consuming, but the result is  :thumbup:
Got questions? Need help? New member?                            
Read the site guidelines
Index of helpful tutorials

Posted Image
20 gun Frigate 'Vesta'
My Brickshelf
My Flickr
My Mocpages


#8 Foremast Jack

Foremast Jack

    Posts: 283
    Joined: 06-December 11
    Member: 22851
    Country: USA

Posted 17 January 2012 - 04:28 PM

Aye aye, sir!  :pir-sweet:

edit: accidentaly quoted you. :pir-laugh:

I'm realizing I quote more from habit of clicking the "reply" button within the last post, as opposed to the general "Add reply" at the bottom of a page.  :pir-cry_sad:

Edited by Foremast Jack, 17 January 2012 - 04:30 PM.

"You don't make friends with the foremast jacks, lad.
They'll think you weak; despise you in the end."
                           - Captain Jack Aubrey

#9 kurigan

kurigan
  • Fresh Pirate


    Posts: 343
    Joined: 25-February 10
    Member: 9706
    Country: USA

Posted 18 January 2012 - 05:38 AM

I had started using these as blocks on Snake. They work well, but I'm not ready to show more of Snake till more of her rigging is complete. I’ll employ them as part of the stays on Hawk next. I originally got the idea for that from Vesta, so thanks Admiral. I decided to halt progress on Snake for the moment as this will be the third time I’ve re-done most of her rigging, and run all my experiments on Hawk. By the time I’ve solved all my problems, Hawk should be complete, a feather in my cap, and I can move on to finishing Snake in one effort.



Hawk’s mast is a bit forward yes, but many of the examples I looked at for period cutters had a similar setup and in my case I need the deck space aft, much more than I need it forward. As for raking the mast, it defiantly makes a vessel look more sleek and from a real world perspective, will greatly improve your point of sail, but I’m trying to keep hawk’s construction simple and stable. Check out Narthex, Snake and Scorpion where I’ve employed raked masts, quite successfully.



I’m also not entirely sure of the name “Hawk” not for a merchant vessel any way. I felt I needed a name to post her. I went with the first thing that came to mind based on the figurehead I transferred from the old hull. I figured it was bad luck not to. What does everyone else think, does Hawk work, and if not, got any suggestions?

#10 Foremast Jack

Foremast Jack

    Posts: 283
    Joined: 06-December 11
    Member: 22851
    Country: USA

Posted 18 January 2012 - 06:06 AM

View Postkurigan, on 18 January 2012 - 05:38 AM, said:

Hawk’s mast is a bit forward yes, but many of the examples I looked at for period cutters had a similar setup and in my case I need the deck space aft, much more than I need it forward.

I wasn't saying that her mast was too far forward. I was talking about the Main Channel. I'm including a picture so there's no confusion.
Posted Image

View Postkurigan, on 18 January 2012 - 05:38 AM, said:

As for raking the mast, it defiantly makes a vessel look more sleek and from a real world perspective, will greatly improve your point of sail, but I’m trying to keep hawk’s construction simple and stable.

I can understand that. Was just pointed it out, in case it was accidentally over-looked.

View Postkurigan, on 18 January 2012 - 05:38 AM, said:

Check out Snake

I absolutely love how you paired an inverted 2x2 round plate here to create perfectly squared capstan bar holes. :thumbup:

I see you're using spears as bars with the blade inserted, if you haven't already tried, would you see (at least for me) if the butt-end fits in that space?

View Postkurigan, on 18 January 2012 - 05:38 AM, said:

I’m also not entirely sure of the name “Hawk” not for a merchant vessel any way. I felt I needed a name to post her. I went with the first thing that came to mind based on the figurehead I transferred from the old hull. I figured it was bad luck not to. What does everyone else think, does Hawk work, and if not, got any suggestions?

I think it works in one way but not in another. I think it's fitting cause hawks are swift flying birds. And I've no doubt that Hawk can really fly before the wind. :wink: At the same time though, hawks are also predators, so if she's an unarmed merchantman, then I could see a problem. Ultimately, I don't think you need to change the name if you don't want.
"You don't make friends with the foremast jacks, lad.
They'll think you weak; despise you in the end."
                           - Captain Jack Aubrey

#11 kurigan

kurigan
  • Fresh Pirate


    Posts: 343
    Joined: 25-February 10
    Member: 9706
    Country: USA

Posted 18 January 2012 - 08:03 AM

I do believe we are of the same mind, but not at the same stage. The three ropes shown are merely the shrouds. There are only the three fairly well centered due to a lacking of parts, I may be able to overcome after all. Like most ships have, I did intend to ship more lines, in this case 4 instead of 3, with the last further back, skewing the overall effect in that direction. I couldn’t accommodate this, however and settled for just the three. The image shows what she may look like if I had the fourth, by way of dangling one of the shrouds from the opposite side, somewhere close to its place. I agree that this looks much better and am now looking to modify Hawk’s plan accordingly. If I were to move the whole of the apparatus aftward so that the for most shroud no longer reached out ahead of the mast, I would destabilize the structure leaving it prone to collapsing backwards. As for the back stays, they are not installed as of yet. If you look closely at the after most section of her hull, you’ll see a horizontal clip protruding from her side. This was initially intended to be the mounting point for the back stay, but I doubt that it’s not too far back and plan to research it again before committing to it. The stays I’ll tie with blocks instead of dead eyes so they can be belayed and more readily adjusted. Not that plastic Legos on a shelf are quite as susceptible to wind and weather as a wooden vessel, but the beauty is in the details.


Posted Image


More views her shrouds here




As for Snake’s windlass, thank you I though it pretty cleaver myself, but it’s not an original idea. I’m afraid I forget who to credit, but I do recall it was on a model of Endeavor, where I first saw the arrangement. The spears and any such tubular members fit, but loosely and anything a whole stud or thicker will not fit at all. The spear heads filled the gap well enough for the images so I used them in that moment, but I don’t as of yet have a long term plan for bars. I may entirely omit them from the design ( out of sight is out of mind), suggest at their function with a gallows of “light saber blades” to merely look like they’ll serve the function or go so far as to carve bars to fit from balsa wood, if a better solution doesn’t present its self in time.



For the name, the predatory aspect seems to flood my mind whenever I mention it. It seems more a name for a small man-of-war, perhaps something like a post ship or even a brig, than a merchant, even flyer. It seems to have a distinctly American quality about it, which as an American I shouldn’t mind save that I was aiming for something more English. If I weren’t as superstitious as it seems I truly am, I could remove the figure head and open my options to a much wider realm of possibilities. So long as that gray bird perches on her break water I can see no way around it influencing the vessel’s name, it being so prominent.

#12 Foremast Jack

Foremast Jack

    Posts: 283
    Joined: 06-December 11
    Member: 22851
    Country: USA

Posted 18 January 2012 - 05:52 PM

Ah, okay. I thought your shrouds were both the shrouds and backstays. Whilst I'm still inclined to say that whole mess of cordage should be moved aft, you know your vessel much better than I; so it is entirely at your discretion how she is made. She does look a lot better though with that fourth shroud/backstay on. :pir-classic:

Well if you're looking for an English bird the first two that pop to mind are the Lark and Nightingale. Now are either of them fitting names for a ship? It's hard to say. But as you say, you may want to take that feathery conundrum off the prow and see what else may fly to mind.
"You don't make friends with the foremast jacks, lad.
They'll think you weak; despise you in the end."
                           - Captain Jack Aubrey




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Sponsored Links