Scouty

Thats a pretty poor reason to unvote somebody. It's sort of along the lines of voting for someone to even out the vote.

I'm sorry I haven't been very talkative today. I did a lot of talking yesterday and my dreams keep me away from the action here. Or something like that. Anyway, I think I know who I want to vote for. I'm, more or less, at a loss today, so this is more a stab in the dark sort of thing. With a supposed high number of scum and our dwindling numbers, it's not going to be too difficult to catch a scum. Vote: Zepher On top of Hinck's suspicion of you, your behavior yesterday was quite supportive...meanwhile the likes of Rick (a townie) and Pandora (assumed townie) were constantly questioning me. You seemed to catch on to the concept pretty quickly, I'm voting for you to see if that has any meaning, which'll tell me more about other people's behaviors yesterday.

Well, I don't want to reveal too much, and I'm investigating what it means. Though, for now, I believe it's a town member I've got on my hands. Plus, we've outed enough town roles, don't you think ? But it's not the "believe" or "know", it's the modifier "really". Add in "really believe", "really know", it's the same. The "really" is the certainty aspect. Saying "I think..." would be an indicator that you had doubt...but saying "really think" tells me you believe it. If you wanted to say "with all the information I have right now, I'm not sure, but if I had to place a bet, then I'd say the watcher is scum", then just say that. From what you told me, I would not have gotten that. It's still an odd statement that you're taking steps back on.

Nope, at least one of his reads was very accurate. Spot on, actually. The others I agree with, more or less

Ok, to not keep harping on Pandora, I looked at the list of suspects Hinck told me and I'll share them here with you all. On JimB: "He did the same thing again, with a wishy-washy non-committal post. I told him how Scummy it seemed in Ragnarok and WBD killed him for it." JimB was one of the other candidates we were talking about in attempting to turn the lynch. He sent me this earlier: "I thought Jim's wishy-washy post yesterday was Scummy and I pointed that out. What else have you seen? He's dropped a couple Scum tells by PM too. I'll explain in greater detail later. Right now I'm on my phone." Unfortunately he didn't elaborate on that later on, when he began questioning me. On Draggy: "Draggy builds a case against me but lets other people vote. I gave him an opportunity to make a post that would definitely make me look like Scum. He didn't post it. His reactions to my other posts, really seem like Town Draggy, though." I, more or less, think Draggy is town, but I, of course, could be wrong. Hinck thinks Tammo is scum, and I agree with him. Tammo's behavior yesterday struck me as that of a scum. And of course on Darth Potato, Nightshroud and Zepher, which he posted yesterday. I've hardly seen much from Nightshroud, he seems to be quite the lurker.

I thought broadway musical rhyming was bad, I feel so sorry for you! Well, I can see how the watcher can be both scum and town. Some people are saying that there can't be a scum watcher, because it's an informative role, and def said there would be none. I think, though, it's a better interpretation that there will be no informative roles that will confirm the affiliation of somebody. So no investigator or somebody to say who is and who isn't recruitable (though there might be one, but I think there'd be more of a challenge without such a role). Watcher, however, does not confirm affiliation, it just tells you who targeted who. I don't expect the scum's only actions in their arsenal to be just Killer and Recruiter...they have to have something more, and a watcher is one such possible role. So, a watcher approaching me is acceptable as a scum because he can just say he's town and it's the beginning of talking to other power roles that could very well be scum. Whether the watcher I'm talking to is scum or not...it's difficult to tell. The results from today are not very satisfying and I wonder if he's lying or just being truthful. I could make a case for him as scum and him as town equally well What concerns me is Pandora's certainty that the watcher is scum (and then goes back on it later on, and then saying "might"). Interestingly, another player I'm talking to thinks the watcher is town.

[=========] Also, while we are losing Townies to killers, dropping like flies, we can't forget the recruiters. Have they been successful in recruiting somebody yet? It's been three nights now. So we're faced with losses on more than just the public front.

Well, this is all so very disappointing. My mind is boggled so far that I can't think of an analogy to finish this sentence with. Anyway, the one thing that I can get off my mind is something for Pandora. I just one to reply to some of her comments from yesterday. Ah, yeah, I had prematurely sent the PM, and edited in what I wanted to ask, if I should tell or not. [========] This next thing I really have a problem with, and it contradicts what you told me. This is what you told me: Not "might be scum", but "really think this watcher is scum". That sounds like certainty to me, so why now take a step back and say "might be scum"?? Plus, the watcher didn't quote Rick or you, he quoted (what he bolded) himself from a message earlier in our pm-unless you were referring to something else, but it's not clear to me what the watcher said in bolding from you guys. And furthermore: In the quote above, you don't mention that the watcher could be town, there's only the thought that he is scum...you only mention that the watcher is town later on, which I think is odd: You go from thinking that he "really is scum" to worrying that the watcher's name is going to die with me. It's an odd contradiction here and you only think of the watcher as scum/town on different occasions.[========] Well, it's a different game this time around. Look at Rick, he was looking scummy and he turned up town. I thought it was an interesting point that Hinck made: "She, cheekily, implied I reveal things to her before I got killed. She was the most engaged with me, when so many people thought I was Scum. If the Town is acting Scummy, she was "acting" the most Town. I've worked with her as Town. She follows through on things. Forgetting about the people I said I'd talk to is weird for her." This was before he switched his vote for Shadows, so I'm not sure what happened afterwards that convinced him that voting for you was not the right way to go. It's only at moments (like mine) where we are on the line to be lynched that our townie colors should come through. We're supposed to be scummy...so here's you looking townie when you're not under pressure. It's an interesting observation, isn't it? Maybe I'm wrong in thinking like this...but the structure of the game seems to support it. [========] Well, statements like these give me no confidence, because clearly (from a scum perspective) a scum is going to assert their importance in this game (as should every towny, but when the scum are doing it, it sort of becomes superfluous). If you are so important, give me a good reason to believe that in private, or else I just can't shake the thought that you're a clever scum [========] Well, I'm sorry it had to be you...I would be sorry it had to be anybody, because we did this so late. Hinck and I talked a lot just before that, very heatedly, and at the end of that I could trust him as town, and I was right. I was desperate to try and save him, because he had an important role (and a town role to trump his would have to be a pretty big one), and I wanted to redeem ourselves for wasting the day. I wasn't just going to sit back and let him die and think pensively about stuff the next day. Why let him die when we can try and save him...we were pretty close, until he switched his vote. I would have liked to discuss things with you and fix the contradictions we found in your behavior this game, but it was absolutely urgent and we had to push the case. Concerning Shadows, I cannot tell you that he is scum or town, but at that late night, he was helpful in his opinions in the case against Pandora (and was initially opposed to it, stating the futility of trying to turn the lynch). Overall, he looked like town to me, there. I can see that he was a scum put into an awkward position...but I'm more inclined to think he's town.

I was surprised, to say the least, that Hinckley switched his vote to Shadows. Now that there is no urgency to turn a lynch, I hope to take care in who I argue against. Again, my apologies. I was quite occupied that day with quite the squabble, so I had no time to scrutinize everybody...only those I suspected before, struck out as odd to me as I read through the day, or were suspected by others. I'll have time the next day to look through my list of suspects, as well as the list of suspects Hinckley has told me.This provided I am not killed or converted (if it is, indeed, that PR roles have the possibility of being converted), and the scum/psycho killer know that I am town.

Boy, what a day. !

It's nearly 5 a.m., so please do forgive me if my brain is interpreting your questions incorrectly ! I don't have the choice to prevent the death or not. I don't know why people keep saying that...I don't recall saying something like. I just protect people like a normal protector would. Nothing complicated about it. The only thing is, is that I protect the person I chose the previous night from being harmed by a day killer. The seer stuff is just detail that has no significance than just to make it interesting/justified how I could protect people in the day. Like, with my cool seer powers, I see into the future and, gasp! A man is being trampled by elephants! So, with such foreknowledge, I'm there on hand to push the poor man away from the hoofs (is it hoofs? from elephants? I don't know, it's 5 am :P ) and save him. I don't know if there'd be a discrepancy if I protected a scum or a towny. But, and here's the detail that I think is throwing you off, my seer powers don't work on a broad spectrum, I have to pick a specific person at night to look into their future and see if they are going to be killed in the day or not. There is no choice but my choosing a specific person I want to protect the night before. Just like a protector/doctor. As for results...well, it's only been two nights/two days, and the first night I was blocked. That I was told so, and as a result of the block I was unsuccessful, obviously. I got no message that I was successful or not after targeting Shadows, but I assume I was successful, in that he's not dead now and I didn't need to take action to save him. Oh, I have no doubt he's a watcher. He accurately caught me targeting shadows, and I believe his clarification on his mix up. I can't be sure if he's scum or town...but I'm giving him a chance to prove himself. It's clear that I'm not the day killer. I was blocked Night Zero, when Cecilie died, and was seen targeting Shadows Night One, who is not dead, obviously. He didn't mention if he saw anyone else targeting Shadows. I feel if he had, he would have told me.

Like I said before, Hinck and I had a very heated discussion and I feel that he is town. Even when we were discussing this last attempt to save his life, he still held reservations on Pandora, that she could be town and that we could be paranoid and rushing our choices of who to vote for. If he was scum, he'd have posted this saving grace with little hesitation. Like Hinck said, we've checked our notes and I really think that Pandora could be scum. If she's town, then I'm sorry to say, but I think Hinck is more important in what he has than Pandora, if she is just a vanilla townie. It sounds awful, I know, but if we're faced with a town loss today, I'd rather it not be Hinck's life... Then again, she can also be scum. Here's my reasoning on why I think she is. Among several other people, Pandora contacted me looking for clarification on my role. Overall she's been pretty town in her PM to me, so I at least opened a little to her. She's been quite helpful, really. Though, there's some things in there that concern me. For one, I showed her the watcher's PMs (name scratched out, of course) of his clarification of why he said he watched me when he really watched Shadows. I wanted her opinion on this. Pandora thinks the watcher is scum. She seems sure of it. I know that the watcher very well could be scum, but I still had belief that he's town. Plus, several others I've talked to, think that the watcher is town. Then a thought came to me. If she's scum, she'd want me to doubt the watcher. The other instance was when she was the only one I told about the clarification that I'm only a weaker doctor before I said so in the main thread. I said I wasn't sure if I should keep that fact hidden, to deprive the scum of the knowledge and somehow use the misinformation of "weak doctor" doctor variant to my benefit. She gave vague advice and told me to do whatever I could do to protect myself. One more instance is that she felt that I should (as did I and it was my idea, too) to share the name of the watcher to somebody I trust. She made note that I shouldn't pick her (which is a towny thing to do). Now, in a game where we're supposed to look Scummy, as Hinck's said, here's Pandora looking towny. To me, by comparing our notes together (something I'm sure Pandora would not expect Hinck and I to do after our squabbles), we can see that Pandora is up to something by contacting me and hinck and other people, too. Again, I apologize if I'm wrong, and I'm really very sorry that this is happening so very late and giving hardly anybody a chance to think about it or for Pandora to defend herself adequately...but it's a choice that I'm making that we have to save Hinck and I think Pandora is the best option to take his place. If we can't get the votes to flip the lynch, then we'll at least have tomorrow to debate with Pandora and Hinck's confirmed, dead body to work off of. I'd just rather save Hinck, that's all Unvote: Jimbutcher Vote: Pandora It's 4:30 a.m. now, I'm going to bed , it's up to you on what you want. I've made my case.

I interpret the "seeing" as purely role play and no true significance to the meaning of my role. I think we can establish that the labels here are a little misdirected...But still, I think that the "seeing" bit is that I see my target getting killed in the future and I make the heroic leap to save them. Or I just see them sitting around doing nothing in the future, and I thus do nothing to prevent it. It's a seer in that I look into the future to prevent the death of people during the day. I more or less trust him. At least enough to the point that I want to give him a chance to prove himself. I think I've said this before. Ah, you're right, we are all supposed to act scummy. Before talking with Hinck and all this mess, I thought about the day killer and was waiting on day one for one to happen. I was looking for it to happen in the middle of the day, like Danny's, and not in the morning like Cecilie's. So, I totally overlooked that fact, even with the knowledge that there could be a day killer (from as much as I could guess about a day killer in my role)

unvote: Hinckley I'm no longer confident in voting for Hinckley. We've been having some heated talks and I just can't vote for him. He's town. The scum know this. I wouldn't be surprised if the scum helped propagate the bandwagon. So many have voted for Hinck, after all. There are several people I'm looking at who have "pinged" my radars. They are Tammo (You were quick to vote for me and I didn't understand your reasoning very much), Zepher (as much as I appreciate your support, I can see it as scummy, supporting either of us would be good, since the debate/argument/catfight was so polarized that your support to either side would put you in a good light...though that is only speculation), JimB (you summarized the day and placed your vote for Hinck as everybody else was doing it, on top of suspicions raised from the previous day), and Rick (this one I'm much less sure, but I feel your behavior today was suspicious. I'm looking at it through a scum perspective and I would say it's behavior a scum could make...again, more speculation). I apologize if I'm wrong on any of you, but I'd prefer to voice my suspicions than let them go with me to the grave. As we're required to vote (I dislike this rule), I'm going to Vote: JimButcher, just because I couldn't yesterday since Banana Sphinx stole our votes and my suspicions still continue.

Ok, pal, sit your pants down. I've asked def for further clarification and he has obliged, most graciously. I am a weaker version of the doctor role. I can only protect people from day kills. The seer role (seer=weaker doctor) is modeled after the "antidote" role (though def thought "weak doctor" would be an easier comparison to make to understand the role, since the "antidote" is a role made in EB and not in the mafiawiki). So there it is. I'm not a "weak doctor", and thus that means that Shadows is not verified by my targeting him. Not to say he's not trustworthy (he's got a nice smile), he's just not verified through my role. I've said this before, I'm sure, but I'll repeat it here. I did not know if you were a town who wanted to turn a "scum" over, a scum trying to get rid of me, or the psycho killer. I've been told that you can't be the psycho killer, so I can strike that off the list. That just leaves me of believing you as town or scum. All this time I've debated with myself, all this time you've been talking about and information has come and gone. My affiliation needle is going back and forth with you. I couldn't place my vote on you until I was sure, or at least more certain. To do so would only be out of retaliation for your attacks on me. I looked for other suspects that I could vote for, but so far my mind has just been occupied on you and me and the arguments here. I placed my vote because we are required to. The day is drawing to a close and I wont be awake for when it closes, so I'd rather get it in now.

I've been saving my vote for somebody else I suspected (and I felt voting for Hinckley would not be my place to do so since the lynch option was between him and me, I don't want to just do retaliatory votes...). I haven't found someone else who I suspect that I'd want to place my vote for yet...my mind has been sort of occupied . Anyway, since we're required to vote, I'll Vote: Hinckley, though if there's anyone else I'd rather have my vote for, I'll just unvote and vote for them.

No, I am only throwing a blanket of protection into the darkness...it's going to be pretty difficult for me to protect the right person at the right time...I suppose that this is what makes it balanced. The difficulty in my being able to protect the right person and the possible psychiatrist/therapist, who I think if they found the psycho, would only make them sane and the psycho killer would no longer be psycho, nor a killer. Concerning the watcher, I've asked for clarity and he's declared it was his mistake saying he watched me. He, in truth, watched Shadows and saw me targeting him. How much I can trust this innocent mistake...I'm not sure...but it's possible. Trust him as I may do, though, he's one to...uhm...watch. I wanted to know more from him. To get something you have to give something. That was my reasoning then, at least Probably a reference to him and myself, since I remarked earlier that watcher is a town role, typically.

Like shadows said, Cecilia's kill happened in the opening of Day 1. I overlooked it as a night kill, since I was looking for a kill like Danny's. so I was looking in the wrong places before, well except now with Danny's death.

For once something you're saying that isn't a frantic theory.Yes, I'm short-sighted. I didn't understand my role Night Zero and that small little detail completely passed my scope.

I told him I was the seer and he immediately revealed my name the next morning. He held off on revealing me before, but me saying I'm a seer made him really eager to get rid of me. I'd be a real danger to someone like chandelier guy...

Maybe he's not the chainsaw killer? Maybe he's the one who offed cecilie? He did quote it himself that cecilie's killer could be the day killer...though that didn't make him think my role was true when others did so now...

The "you'll shoot yourself in the foot" was a comment on the assumption that Hinck and I are town, and that his carelessness will cause my death, and then I'll be revealed as town, and then he'll shoot himself in the foot because he was so wrong. Though, you left out one other option, too. Hinck is the psycho killer.

The "Seer" part in and of itself is unusual and not as described on mafiawiki (which is explained as a werewolf role thingy), so it'd be my guess that' just the name def came up with it. The weak doctor, that was tacked on. I'm not a complete doctor, I don't protect people the immediate night or whatever the typical role is. I'm rather limited in how I protect people. Perhaps that's the "weak" part about it. Though if it is as it is defined on mafiawiki, then that'd be interesting. Difficult to know for sure, though... Should we even be calling him a watcher anymore? How he's describing his actions isn't how a watcher would act...

No. I'm quite certain I'm not. I'm going to say exactly what you told me when I was talking to you. Shut up! OH. WOULD YOU LOOK AT THAT. MORNING. NOT NIGHT. AND IT'S A DIFFERENT MO THAN STABBY STABBY SWORD KILLER AND CHAINSAW FREAKSHOW. KEEN EYE TPRU!Caps lock? No, that was shift, baby. No, I don't choose between two people. I just pick whoever I want. So I guess I protect people from being killed by chandelier guy.

It doesn't make sense to me, either. Welcome to the club! I've asked def for clarification. There's no guarantee he'll give it. Can't be unfair to the other side, after all. But, honestly, what I've told you is a very close paraphrase of what I was told about my role. There's nothing more I can say about it that isn't speculation. And for reference: There's also mention of "weak doctor", as I've said. Nothing else besides the puzzle piece is mentioned. Oh yeah, it also says I'm town.