Waterbrick Down

Another thing, what about the poison wait-out strategy are we thinking those shouldn't be valid either?

That would sort of do away with the whole purpose of the Knight class. They go in the top of the order because they can go toe to toe with the bigger baddies.

Why the brown glove?

I wouldn't say that this is a basic mechanic, it requires the correct setup to pull off and has only come up less than a 1/2 dozen times in the entirety of Heroica. Even so boss monsters shouldn't be governed by basic mechanics it's what makes them special. I agree there is a problem, but I'm starting to think there might be better to solutions than a far reaching rule change. We're basing our entire argument on one class (knights), one stat (SP), and one effect (reinforced) and the implementation of a 10 round rule will effect every class, more than one stat, and all the positive effects. If we don't want the trick being used on any enemy than implementing the 10 round rule will not solve the issue as it can happen naturally without the use of consumables, either through artifacts or by simply upgrading SP to really high levels. I don't think this is the answer not because of the "party vs. QM" which occurs in monster creation anyways, but because it will fundamentally change how battles are planned out by parties. Unless we want to start assigning a Speed/Initiative stat to players as well as a Positioning aspect to the game, I don't believe we should go down this route. Right now, I think the solution is to add a passive special to an enemy if you're worried about someone employ this technique, or just slap on an immunity to free-hits just like an immunity to all negative effects which is a popular fix all for QM's.

"Sod, that Skeleton ain't goin' to work. We're goin' to have to finish this bugger off now, Hoke."

"Alexis get Nur up with a Phoenix Essence, Namyrra can you get Stigveladi up and have her use a Skeleton decoy. Hoke yer with me, let's finish this thing off." Skrall unstrapped his Precision Bow. The grip of the curved wood felt good in the ogre's hands, the entire weapon a testament to its expert craftsmanship. Laying two shafts across the arrow rest, the hunter lined up his shots on the Titan from the back row. Battle Order: Alexis Namyrra Stigveladi Nur Skrall Skrall Hoke Namyrra

I'm not saying it should be a passive special on every enemy and you'd still be able to counter-strike, you'd just be taking damage instead of tanking them, sort of how Alexis does in the UQ. However if a QM is worried that the strategy is going to be abused on their big baddie, like for instance the Crystal Titan or Count Shadeaux, then they could just add the passive special.

OoC: Skrall's critical hit still needs to be adjusted for his level. It should be 684 damage. Skrall notes the rocky behavior of the Titan, definitely different from any sort of beast, as he decided to fire again at the Titan from the back row, but prepared to take a swig from a Grand Potion first if Nur wasn't able to heal everyone. "Alexis, you'd best drink one of your Grand Potions if Nur can't manage one of those healing spells." Battle Order: Nur Alexis Namyrra Hoke Skrall Skrall

My mistake, I though it was the other way around. Scroll of Minor Dispel is the one I'm thinking of.

Actually the Reinforced effect is the one causing the issue. Take Hoke for instance, if he were to be reinforced it would take a monster of Level 109 to do any damage to him. If it's one on one, he can counter-strike pretty much anything to death at this point. Actually an easy way around this wait-out problem is just to add a passive special that free-hits ignore SP.

If my understanding is correct the scroll would actually prevent Docken from ever being remedied of a negative effect.

Perhaps a better question would be to ask for suggestions to keep the counter-strike/poison wait around strategy from being abused.

I'd say leave the negative effects as they are.

I won't argue that you ever intend to do so and I should have conditioned my statement to say that I have never seen an enemy that required such a strategy, but I have seen enemies where victory is so unlikely that it requires contemplation of the strategy.

I'm in favor of the idea, however, how many times is the system abused due to the fact that battle's difficulty might be necessitating it? I do understand that the current battle in the unlimited quest has somewhat made the issue more prominent, but I don't think we'd be resorting to such a strategy if we felt we were capable of winning the battle without it. So yes, I'm for it just as long as QM's (including myself) don't present situations where that strategy is a necessity. Out of curiosity, does anyone know how may rounds the longest battle was that didn't employ the counterstrike/poison wait out strategy? I know the longest battles of Quest 48 lasted 31 rounds and Quest 31 lasted 25 rounds and might have lasted longer.

Generally the rule is that if something provides an immunity to an element then it is gem powered, if it provides an immunity to a type it is just part of the artifact. Same goes for weapons, if it does elemental damage it's gem powered, if it only provides extra damage against a type it is part of the weapon.

OoC: Just to clarify, the 30 damage is spread out over three rounds, or we take 30 damage every round for three rounds? Also, you forgot to add Skrall's Level to his hits. Skrall took cover as the boulders crashed down around him. "Keep yer distance folks." Skrall drew back and fired again.

Joining the other side generally means you don't have to worry about being knocked out by them.

OoC: Encouraged, Favoring Ancient, and Water Damage = x12 multiplier. "Thanks Nur."

OoC: Skrall is hastened. Skrall picked himself up, "Well that wasn't pleasant, Nur if you've got a minute. Hoke, see if ya can manage another of those, the rest of ya stay back." The ogre pulled back on his bow and fired again at the Titan. Battle Order: Nur Hoke Skrall Namyrra Alexis Stigveladi

"Alexis, you and Stigveladi stay back and do nothing with Nur and Namyrra fer now. Hoke ya all set?" The ogre set a second arrow on his bow and pulled back.

Speaking of which was there ever a final decision from Sandy on whether to bump that down to Lv. 40 given that there's no real incentive aside from an extra artifact slot?

Really what it comes down to is power creep, which is sort of why I'm looking forward to starting a new character.

"Alexis or Namyrra could take 'em and head for cover, but that'd take a bit of time."

Looks like it's time to throw the mace in the air and see who it rolls to this time.