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To our mind, it was three nights the vig didn't kill, and Pies claimed to be unsuccessful one night (plausible through block or protect), so that was two nights we thought he didn't kill, which looked more like prudence. On the last day, the town (Adam and Badboy) were worried I was scum, and didn't even PM with me (thanks Bob!), so I was in no position to dictate what the 'vig' did. I was about to say to Bob that the vig was blocked one night, but I was worried that scum might see that they had successfully blocked one night, and figure Pies as the vig and kill him, so I kept that 'fact' to myself. Tammo's games that I've played have been pretty by the book, to his credit. I started with wacko games, and have reeled them in to gimmicky games with sane fundamentals, while Hinckley games fluctuate into lottery territory with the weird roles. I generally enjoy simple games these days over random games. I wasn't expecting anything too crazy in this game. That said, I don't think the roles were too out there either. A redirector is a lesser used role, but not unheard of. Maybe it is unheard of on EB (that I remember), but I used it once on a game on another site. All the same, there is about a zero % chance that I was going to predict that the vig was redirected into killing himself night one. Maybe you on the deadboard saw it clear as day, but if you ran the game 100 times, I still would have got duped. You'll have to show me how to do it better next time

He was included after Stickfig's coming up scum. Kovacs died, only Pies had targeted him, so he, by elimination, had to be the one who killed him. And that wasn't the case. But who would take that info and say it was due to redirection against himself? Looking back, it wasn't foolproof. Maybe the scum had chosen to kill him, and the vig someone else. But it made the chance that he was claiming vig sooo unlikely. Basically, the only other circumstance that could make it so that the scum knew the vig was dead was that they role checked the vig as they killed them, which is very very conservative in a scum game. Once Stickfig was shown to be Octan, that meant Pies was safe. His claim could be counter-claimed by the real vig otherwise. It was just a super lucky first night that gave a lot of info to 'clear' Pies. And we were conservative even still. MostlyTechnic, Badboy, Adam, and Goliath were all in the group PM a few pages of PM before Pies was let in. I've played a game where a recruited PR loses their PR, so after the whole Bob thing, I was worried that Pies was recruited and simply couldn't kill (that's roughly what I told him in PM), but I wouldn't have pushed that theory on day eight or whatever the last day was. Maybe on day nine, with another no vig kill night. I've won games the exact same way in the past, so I doubt I'll be a lot more conservative in the future. It's just a game, and you play the cards you're dealt.

Bob was saying 500 things, and only one of them were right. I don't feel bad that the one thing he said that was correct was lost in that. If he wanted to get that vig thing across, burying it in what he did wasn't the way. It also made things worse for me in the town block. Instead of me working with them, I had to pull out... because of Bob's nonsense. Pies played up recruitment suspicion to Badboy and Adam, but Bob's nonsense made them have to investigate me again. Maybe if Bob hadn't insisted that the vote come down to me and him, we could have lynched Adventurer. I called Mencot as neutral, I was not crazy to lynch him at any point, other than that he was annoying and getting in the way. But when Bob tried to make it all about me, well, it became all about him. Really, since Pies used his redirection skill on Badboy, I guess, to get a false read on Adventurer, we were lucky to push past that and still want to take her out. I wanted her out in a few places. The single kill on night two when Adam protected me was also bad luck. It seemed plausible that the protection on me was successful, meaning the vig was alive. That was a bad assumption. Brickelodeon just looked like a vig kill choice. That was a smart scum kill. Honestly, scum had a super-lucky first night, and Pies worked it well, playing it soft instead of hard, and scum won. I don't feel particularly bad about it. I have doubts many others could have turned that around. And yes, it would be ridiculous to bus two. You know that I went after Stickfig, and that I suggested Scaevola to be investigated. It was REALLY improbable. REALLY, REALLY improbable. Like, less than 1%. Not that I'd vote for scum, but that I'd push for their lynch before anyone else. I was already after Stickfig when he got caught lying. He couldn't have been caught without me forcing his hand. I'm sorry, but that was the most frustrating part of all that thing with Bob. If you guys all want to play mafia where the person leading two scum lynches is the best choice to be lynched... I don't want to play like that. It's absolutely counter-intuitive. When I lost in Heartlake Mafia way back when, that was the game set up, I really think (secret cult, with a second cult leader). I didn't feel bad, since I considered it an unwinnable game. This one... if it had played out without such a disastrous night one, maybe it would have been unbalanced. I strongly think five scum is too much. But, that is not the reason we lost. We lost it largely because of the night one situation (including the luck of scum having the watcher see Pies 'kill' Kovacs, which is the only reason we got anywhere near Pies). So, I don't feel bad here either. I played my usual game, I did the best I could, but the circumstances were poor. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. But I have to disagree with you about pulling the nugget of truth out of Bob's rants, or that people who lead lynches on scum are good choices for lynch.

What are you talking about? You did a theatrical performance where you proclaimed me LIAR! I should have trusted you when you when you tried to throw the whole game over onto me because I had lynched two scum? It was so so ridiculous.

Very unlucky then. Honestly, five scum in a game of eighteen is really too high, regardless of serial killer. All the same, with scums luck night one, once Pies was considered vig, we were cooked, even if there were only four, so it was pretty much a lock for scum. I was suspicious that Pies was scum in the last days when there was no vig, and sent a PM saying as much. But, even though Bob thinks I can just order the vig to kill, I can't, and never tell people they have to do something with their town roles. So, I wanted him to kill Adventurer, and he claimed he was being cautious not to kill, and I had to accept it. Too bad.

So, my big questions for how we got duped so bad: Was there a vig night one? And Pies, did you know they was no vig when you claimed it to me? If not, that was ballsy play!

Too bad, I won't know what happened until night one's two kills are explained. I was right about some stuff, wrong about others. There was no chance that I could have expected five scum in a game of eighteen players. Congrats, Octan!

I've sent in a request for a lock.

<chirp chirp> Those are crickets. Because nobody is talking.

A lot of people use the word stupid. I know I imply it a lot, so I guess I may as well have said it.

I want to go back and amend that last statement. Addie used the word stupid, so in replying I used it as well, but that's not the tone I like to use. It's all well and good to say someone doesn't know how to play, there's an implication that they can learn. But to start calling people stupid, there's an increase in magnitude that I don't mean. Bobby plays in a special way, but there is a chance to improve one of these days. When I thought he was scum, I thought he was playing rather well. As town, not so much. Molly? Well, it's hard to choose the right word for her situation. I tried to pass it off as a language barrier, but she denies its a problem, so... But I don't think people are stupid for not playing mafia well. I rely on Occam's Razor style play, and it's bitten me in the butt more than once. Being over-confident that Bobby was scum is an example of that.

Yup. I can buy that believe that Bobby was so hairbrained as to think that scum would bus two of their team, but I'm giving you more credit than that. If you want to be treated like a stupid player, you have to earn that sort of rep, like Bobby and Molly have. You haven't earned yet. Godfather is a randomly assigned position, so I can see anybody in it.

I don't buy this. In one game, the first time we played together, you completely mistrusted me. That was just once. In this game, it's all new. I have a hard time believing you maintained that lack of faith again seeing Stanley and Sinclair come up scum. My suspicions are here: there is a possibility of a neutral in the game. What role? Who knows. Molly claimed a night action to me. I have a hard time thinking she would false claim one as scum at the point she claimed. I think she could be neutral. And that would make Addie the godfather, and Lloyd just drifting helplessly along as a vanilla townie.

It depends on how the host wants to handle it. If the host wants to balance toward the neutral, results will be scum/not scum. If the host wants to balance against the neutral, results will be town/not town. If the host wants to stay neutral, results will be town/neutral/scum. I prefer the first way when hosting.

I'm town, I still trust the town block. If us four are town, then town cannot lose. And the lack of scum kill last night points to them all being town. Only town was protected, and scum couldn't kill. If you were actually town and knew something to help us and won't help, well, that's on you. It's unfathomable that a player can't understand that, but I have said more than once, you don't know how to play. You have basically proved it today. I actually didn't think you were scum all the way along, I just figured you were clueless. That's why I was happier to shift the vote to Bobby. The results of this lynch will tell us exactly how clueless you are. Anyway, I wanted you to explain your PR claim, you won't, I don't want to keep spamming this thread. I'll try to bite my tongue unless something major changes.

Your fault you're being lynched. In public, you asked once or twice about the watcher's results, and when I didn't share them, you wanted me to tell you in private, because you knew they were lying since they had watched me... which they hadn't. They had watched Hatley. Of course, someone coming to me expecting private information isn't going to get it. I asked you to share the info, you refused, and we put you on the back burner. You have shown no teamwork at all. You would have been lynched if not for Bobby's bone-headedness yesterday. We're remedying that today. You still refuse to explain yourself. If you were townie, you would have hours ago. Good riddance.

You refuse to explain your night action claim. If you were town, you would.

If you explained your PR claim, you might stand half a chance, but if you won't, the only assumption is that you were lying, so I feel no guilt. Even if you turn up town, I think our hands are tied. Your behavior is totally scummy. Meaning: you are the reason you're being lynched, not any of us. Ironically, even if I were scum, I would have done more for the town than you

No, it doesn't mean he had any points. It means he thought he did. That's a huge difference. So far, you've done nothing for the town, and you insist on going down doing nothing. It's baffling. Pierce tried to help the town. Bobby tried to help the town. You? Still waiting...

Good riddance.

Molly, you explain it. The logical answer is that the scum target was protected. Now explain your night role. You claimed one. If you're town, and you go down with that a secret, you're a horrible team player. If you're scum, just keep at it as you are, it doesn't make a difference.

Why don't you explain your night action first?

It was plausible for one townie to fall for Bob's "solid information," but unfortunate that everyone out of the block did. I really hoped that Lloyd's vote on Bobby would have cleared him today.

No, that was not "solid" considering it was all completely wrong. Literally all of it. Personally, I would trust me. While the town could imagine I'd been recruited, it is silly to think I'm the godfather. I'm a big fan of Occam's razor. If signs point to loyal, I go with it. The vig was not automatically admitted to the town block in case they were a SK. Once signs pointed to them being town, I let them in. That's how I play, reading loyalty based on info given. And I helped lynch two scum. I'll state it again: no scum team would bus two members. It's just too dangerous. Bobby's theories were terrible, and they got him lynched. I've been saying Molly is the worst, but it's no longer true, now Bobby is the worst. And you followed him, against all common sense. We have to wait for Molly to explain her PR claim. That should stimulate the conversation.

Actually, they haven't been similar at all. I suggested the town block leave me out of their night plans more than once, and the PRs that we've lost are not the ones I'd take out as scum. Investigator is number 1, protector number 2. Both are alive. Furthermore, in that case as godfather, I never caught scum, except by accident. The one scum I caught was by accident, a townie traitor not on my team. This time, I've helped catch two, and the town block knows it based on our discussions. Hopefully that puts such silly accusations to rest, and I hope the town block can verify this. Addie still seems like a good choice. I still don't trust her vote flip yesterday, and continuing to focus on me despite all signs pointing to my loyalty.