zephyr1934

Good to hear. The half length rails have been a big help for my 9v layout and I've been looking forward to the prospect of the larger radi curves for some time. Any chance you could up date the metal rails update that aims for an end of summer availability? Benn

Looks good (though it would be nice to replace that black on the nose with green, maybe a green cheese and 1x2 tile?) Here's my C&O E8 You might find a few ideas to borrow- in particular, I used empty wheel holders for the third axle to facilitate running on lego track. I think you could easily fit the PF receiver and battery inside your loco, then just use the PF train motor for power. If you need more power, use two motors, you can do that on one locomotive (just remember that you either need a polarity switch or the wires have to leave the motors from the same end- so you'll likely need a hole above the rear coupler for the wire to come in). Looking at my C&O folder you can also see one of the problems with such a long loco, it makes the super chief repaint cars look stubby. I may some day rebuild the C&O cars to be 40 studs long. If you are aiming for a proper BN passenger train, you could do a combination of predecessor roads (there were few all cascade green BN passenger trains before Amtrak, and you'd see GN, NP, and the Q schemes on Amtrak until the late 70's). I did a studs up BN hockey stick on a super chief repaint with this objective in mind for my big sky blue GN train set, though your snotted version is a lot better. Or you could do the Metra bilevels (sigh, the last class one E's).

This thread really hits on one problem with the lego trains, unlike most themes, they are not a system. If you exclude the level crossing, station and things that are not really trains, lego does not have a $5 set, a $20 set and so forth. The cheapest train is $120. I doubt that situation will change any time soon, but I still like the idea of making the low end train set be unpowered (then offer a S@H bundle with all of the parts you'd need to power it). I know my kids much prefer pushing trains around then running them remotely. Save money on the set by excluding the PF and make more later when someone upgrades at the retail PF prices. Do double duty by putting enough generic train bits in here (couplers, wheels, bogie plates, and bases for three cars) that it could also serve as a train parts pack too (i.e., don't cut costs by cutting out wheels or couplers, then such a set could also replace the train base set ca 2000 for AFOLs). Even better if the track were separate too (buy a S@H bundle of track packs comprised of N straight packs and M curve packs, etc to make a loop). Though I suspect the PF and track are "value added" upgrades that don't actually cost Lego that much when included in a set. You could address the different regional issues of trains by making it a 3 in 1 Creator set.

Hey hey hey, BBB's track looks fantastic, but talk about the details this other thread. (having been guilty of wandering off topic myself in other threads, I just have to grin). BBB's track should be fantastic for the heavy duty users. But 90% of the people who buy a train set have no idea about the on-line community and will be looking for an all Lego solution at the start. Still others will want an all Lego solution even if there are superior options at similar prices. So my point is that Lego needs to offer simple options that allow users to build or extend loops of track. While I would love new track designs, I'm trying to stick within the confines of what Lego is presently offering. I have not even said anything about price. Clearly Lego was originally willing to sell the plastic track at half the price of the 9v track ($16 for 16 segments). Maybe they've pushed the price up to $20 for 16 segments these days, fine, as long as it is all one type of track. It needs to be available from Lego or there will be few new train AFOLs.

If you've never done so, thumb through 7777, the train idea book from 1981. Gold indeed.

Lego can make money selling train sets, Lego can make more money selling fire truck sets. So we see more of the latter and fewer of the former. To compensate, the train sets are mostly limited to high end items and Lego probably charges a premium on some of the parts (e.g., track). Lego does appear to listen. Several years ago, on the Ambassador forums I had posted a long wish list of parts from the Lego train fans. Basically these were parts the train community wanted to see produced (they could appear in non-train sets, as long as they were available). Although I never got any feedback from Lego, many of these parts did eventually appear (off the top of my head the re-release of back 6x28 baseplates, the train windshield in other colors, the dark gray sliding doors). We've also seen parts deliberately aimed at the train fan come out in non-train sets (e.g., the black cowcatcher used as a radar dish). Whether Lego listened to the feedback from the ambassador forum or these were obvious choices, Lego is still sustaining the AFOL train fan within the constraints of their business model. My guess is that Lego is ultimately aiming to use Cuusoo to serve niche markets like AFOL trains better (smaller run sets that still make whatever the target profit margin is). In the mean time, Lego should offer a strictly straight track pack, and a strictly curved track pack at S@H. The easier it is for a customer to get the track they want, the more trains Lego will sell. These packs would sell on their own, but then for the person just starting out or the person giving a gift Lego should offer a couple of simple layouts on-line that are constructed with N of the straight packs, M of the curve packs, and P of the switch packs. These bundles would simply be a few more options in the trains category at S@H without being any additional space on the warehouse shelves.

Now that more details than a photo are out, apparently yes! Getting back to the topic, however, Ben's tracks are probably for the serious AFOL. Lego still needs to make tracks easier to get for the casual AFOL.

They look fantastic and well thought out (no surprise there). It would be nice to also have transition pieces that would allow you to mix the new rails in with Lego track (especially 9v, since you could just jump a one stud gap for PF). I suspect the design is superior for AFOL needs, but I would want to try it on the curves first before I went and replaced all of my straight segments. This approach would allow a user to make the transition over time and then after transitioning, to be able to interface with the lego track (e.g., not everyone in a club has to use one track system or the other). Yeah, the incorporated ties are great, but now it is difficult to ballast (I actually like this design better, but others might not). I like your idea Mark, though going one step further, fetch the grinder and convert all of your heavily used Lego parts to ballast (reduce, reuse, recycle). Some folks have already used loose 1x1 plates for ballast, so that would also be an option. I suspect narrow gauge would require new ties to be easier than gluing rail to tiles. But if the standard gauge sells well enough, perhaps narrow gauge would be in the future. January should be an interesting month. Benn

Another neat thing about Lego compared to conventional model railroading is that if you change your mind, it is fairly easy to tear apart and rebuild. If you are new to building Lego trains, it will take you a few models before you find your grove, e.g., it wasn't until my 3rd or 4th steam engine design that I had something I liked and that ran reasonably well. So don't worry too much about getting it perfect out of the gate (you probably will not, but it also will not be that hard to go back and rebuild later to fix whatever troubles you). My first passenger cars were largely repaints of the Santa Fe passenger cars. They are proportioned well for the Lego curves but they are stubby for standard gauge passenger cars (the LGB effect). Using 6 wide = 10ft, I came up with 52 stud long passenger cars (see the Sperliner article in Railbricks 10). They are well proportioned, but are very heavy and have a lot of drag on the tight Lego curves. I'm settling towards 40 stud long passenger cars as the trade off. I actually picked this length before building the Superliners when I rebuilt my CNW bi-levels from 34 studs to 40 studs long. If you are modeling narrow gauge, then the Lego proportions probably are less of a hassle. For steam, I think getting the running gear working well can be the trickiest thing. You definitely want to build working prototypes of the mechanicals to make sure everything works and so that you can revise your design early (you don't have to use the colors/bricks you need for the final model, just something that will get the wheels, rods, and flex points where you plan them to be). Then the next trickiest is figuring out how to make a round boiler with square bricks. While most of my cars are 6 wide, I've found that 8 wide is a LOT easier for steam engines (with 6 wide boilers and running gear that extends beyond 8 wide). I then step to a 7 wide tender before hitting the 6 wide cars. I'd guess that your wheel selection and boiler options will determine what size to build everything else in, but there will be compromises and clever tricks. If you are jumping head first in to Lego trains, I would recommend that you get familiar with LDraw, especially if you do not have a huge stash of parts. There are a couple of good books on the PC software (although several years old, much of what they say still holds) as well as some good on-line tutorials. It is a lot easier cleaning up virtual bricks than real bricks. One word of caution though, if you are building virtual models that you some day plan to turn in to real models, keep an eye on the bricklink prices. Parts that you would think should exist don't or might be very expensive when they do exist. And your first few LDraw models will likely have a few parts that float in thin air or otherwise violate the laws of physics. So all the more important to remember- still build the mechanicals in real bricks before you get too far.

So on the cuusoo front, in no particular order, there are advance train track system, which has some neat possibilities, probably would never be realized in full, but perhaps the best nuggets could be adopted. Superelevated curves (with a few variants). Return to the old 8 straight + 8 bonus curve track pack (better then the current offering, but not as good as just straight separate from just curve) Larger radi curves, which are something that many AFOLs seem to be asking for. The last one, we see two different third party manufacturers on the verge of offering these options: ME-Models still delayed R2 (and subsequent R3 and R4 that were proposed long ago), and more recently Big Ben's forthcoming curves. Nothing seems to get Lego's attention more than a third party producing a successful product (Big Ben's wheels, Brick Forge Cows and other assorted animals, etc). If the AFOLs prove there is demand, Lego might just enter the market. As 9V was being discontinued, I was arguing with Steve Barile that Lego just needs to produce a "sleeper" (aka railroad tie) that is compatible with some standard model railroading rail. I now think that there probably is not enough demand for lego to do that, but it could be a niche for someone to serve the AFOL market.

In the Horizon Express thread I started discussing the need to support the other areas of AFOL train needs, chief of which is making track more readily accessable. Lego turns like a battleship. I think Lego corporate is listening to many channels of feedback, including keeping an eye on forums like this, watching the survey responses, seeing what comes in through cuusoo, talking to fans at cons, etc.. Case in point, Lego cut costs by just tossing the instructions and stickers loose in the box. After enough AFOLs complained, they started shrink wrapping the instructions. It took about 10 years, but Lego responded to the feedback. I've seen many other smaller examples where it looks like Lego is responding to the feedback. Lego is still supporting AFOL trains, so they have chosen to invest in this segment. We need to give proper feedback as to how they can best serve this segment. They may or may not respond, as consumers we certainly do not see all of the trade-offs. But we can keep asking for track packs and maybe some day they will deliver.

More of a PF tour de force, but who's quibbling (grin).

Railbricks is the best starting place I can imagine (grin). There are also some nice instructions on LGauge (most are North American designs) and I THINK James Mathis had instructions for some of his models on brickshelf. Click the passenger folder, then poke through the designs.

Very cool, can't wait to see more details. Hopefully they will be compatible with the existing lego track.

I would agree with you with regards to serving the existing AFOL train builders. However, if Lego only serves the existing population without providing an attractive avenue for new builders to enter the hobby, our numbers will dwindle, sales will fall off, and Lego will stop making trains for AFOLs. I spent the 1990's looking at the train sets aimed at kids and sighed, "why didn't they have those in the U.S. when I was a kid?" As an adult I never once thought of buying one of those sets for myself. If you are reading this forum you are an AFOL and you probably have 10+ lego train sets or at least know that you can go to bricklink to buy just the parts you want. If you are new to the hobby, you might not have anything. Put yourself in the shoes of a newcomer who might be a railfan and have a passing interest in Lego. You see the Horizon Express and it gets your attention, but as someone new to the hobby it is not clear how you would buy a loop of track. The only obvious path to curved track at S@H is buying one of the City train sets. Even if the $3/segment price was not an issue, most newcomers would never dig deep enough to discover that that you can buy curved track from PAB. Lego needs to provide an easy and straightforward avenue for the newcomers to the hobby to get a satisfying loop of track or a segment of straight track to display the set on. It needs to be simple and obvious (e.g., a track bundle) or Lego will turn away a lot of potential AFOL train builders who are not currently in the hobby. So yes, it is fantastic to see a new AFOL train set, but this release is also an opportunity to fix a problem with track availability that has lingered since the end of the 9V era (remember you could order one of several different track combinations back then, or simply a box of 8 straight segments). The fix for the newcomers will also serve the existing AFOL builders and kids with a City train set better. The high priced track bundles that include parts that you don't want are a disincentive to entering the hobby. Like the S@H PF component exclusives, lego should have a plastic wrapped pack of straight track available, and separately, a plastic wrapped pack of curved track available.

While it is good to see Lego producing trains for AFOLs, this release underscores one of the big problems of how Lego actually supports the AFOL trains. They need to do a better job providing the track. Sure, if you are reading this forum you probably have a ton of track already. But if you are contemplating getting into Lego trains you don't have any track. If price point is critical, reduce the number of minifigs in the set and replace them with 8 sections of straight track (this criticism is true for the Emerald Night and Maersk train as well). I think straight track would be a lot closer to the Creator theme than minifigures. Almost everyone who buys this set could probably make use of the straight track, while only some could use the minifigs. Worse, after you've bought your second set, you now have twins of all four figs. I would think a minimal layout would have 16x curves and 24x straight (just enough for six cars to straighten out). If you were new to the hobby, you wouldn't even know to look in PAB for the track at $3 a segment, so you would not have any option to buy curved track (assuming you also did not know to look on bricklink). Even if you did find the track in PAB, it would cost another $120 for the simple loop or $36 to have 12 straight track segments for display. Coinciding with the release of this set, Lego should also offer track packs by type (just straight track, and separately just curved track) bagged as S@H exclusives like the PF components that are already available. The discontinued RC train track pack had 16 segments for $16. That would be a good price point if they were all one type of track (hint to lego- you will sell more straight track than curved track but you need to also need to sell curved track). Of course you can already get six straight track segments for $5 or six curve track segments for $5 from S@H... if you are shopping for duplo. If lego wants to foster more train AFOLs they should make it easier for builders to acquire the track they need, without bundling it with track they don't want. The current way Lego sells track is just a deterrent to prospective AFOL train enthusiasts.

The custom rods offer much greater flexibility, e.g., you can span more than seven studs while keeping the rod under half a technic beam. So you can build narrower steam locomotive designs (when retrofitting, I was able to make one of my engines one stud narrower). Unfortunately, some existing MOCs were designed for full technic beams and cannot easily be modified for the narrow rods. When I started fabricating the rods I thought I would have to skip over my most recent steam locomotive. On my little 0-6-0 switcher both the side rod and connecting rod were so long that I had to use full beam width constructions for the rods (as per the prototype, the connecting rod attached to the rear driver). I thought I came up with a pretty good all Lego solution. Unfortunately my design has the cross head/cylinders at 8 wide (the same width as the side rods) so the connecting rods were at 10 wide. My custom rods are half as thick, but the connecting rods still had to be beyond the cross head, i.e., wider than 8 wide. I did not want to redo the cylinders, so to use the new rods I would need a half stud gap between the side rod and connecting rod. I came up with a solution for this retrofit problem. I've added an extension to the backside of the connecting rod on one end. At this point the rod is now almost a full stud wide. Inside of this extension I put a grove so that it could accept a pin either at the midpoint or all the way through. So now I could use a standard pin to pass through the side rod and into the extension on the connecting rod, clicking in at the halfway point. The new connecting rods would now be at 9 wide on this locomotive. On the other end of the connecting rods, I still had a full pin connecter that I could not eliminate, creating another retrofit problem, but this one was easier to fix. I simply made a washer that was essentially a one long rod with a single hole. Pop it on the outside and it keeps the connecting rod in place. Even with the half stud gap, I think the solution looks better than the full width, all Lego connectors I was using previously. Although my store only lists the extensions on 12 long connecting rods (the only design I've fabricated so far), these extensions can be added to any of the rods.

Shortly after discovering Big Ben's Bricks, I found myself dissatisfied with any of the alternatives for driver rods (connecting and side rods) on brick built steam engines. Out of determination, I have produced driver rods that are compatible with BBB and Lego's steam engine wheels for my own use. After some tinkering, I'm now offering these rods for sale to the AFOL community as well. These parts are designed to be driver rods, they are a little thicker than a plate and a little thinner than a 1/2 Technic beam. This odd thickness is deliberate, the rods are designed so that they should not rub against the rim of the wheels. The rods float on the pin cuff- compatible with 3/4 pins or full Technic pins. So now you can paint the rims of your driver wheels if you are so inclined. Given the wide array of possible configurations and the limits of my pocketbook, I have opted to fabricate these custom driver rods using rapid prototyping technology. As a result, the possibilities are literally endless, e.g., half stud offsets for BBB small drivers should be feasible. My store only contains those driver rods for which I have completed designs and fabricated at least one copy. Other configurations are feasible, contact me via Bricklink messages and we can discuss (I can't guarantee that I can make everything, and in any event, expect a longer lead time on new parts since I will have to design it). The surface of the driver rods is a little rough because the fabrication technique, but it is hardly noticeable except when you are extremely close up. There are only a few fabrication colors to choose from- gray, black and red and I cannot adjust the colors. Fortunately, the gray is pretty close to light-blay. I have not yet tried the other colors for a match to lego colors, I suspect they will not be as close as the gray, but I will probably do a test run soon. As such, black and red are only available upon request (again, contact me via Bricklink messages). Visit my Bricklink store to order the rods or find more information about production. These are a labor of love. Many more examples and prototypes can be found in my brickshelf folder. There you will even find a tutorial for modifying an Emerald Night. www.bricklink.com/store.asp?p=zephyr

In case you didn't see it on the Eurobricks front page, Railbricks #12 has been published, and can be found at http://railbricks.com/

Okay, Lego needs better copywriters for their press releases: "Steer from the front engine car" The train looks great, probably a good choice for a subject too (one of the more recognizable trains of the modern era). Too bad the prototype doesn't have more rare colors in it. I like the way they gave the undercarrage a seamless, snotted inverted slope with hidden hinges. The trucks on the "engine" are similar to the Maersk locomotive- designed to look like a PF motor when one is installed (what a drag, in the literal sense). Oh, looking again at the photos- only the front truck has the technic axles and will presumably be where the motor is intended to go, the second one uses regular train wheels (less of a drag, again in the literal sense).

I faced a similar problem. Though I knew from the start that I did not like ceiling mounted tracks because you can hardly see the trains and they are hard to get to. So I was pondering how to do a shelf mounted layout in an odd shaped room. To make it waist high, either you have to do tight turns that still poke out into the room (but do offer spots to do small scenes) or you have to figure out some way to bridge the doorway. After about half a year I looked down and saw the floor. I realized that I rarely step within 1 ft of the wall, it is easy to step over the tracks at the doorway, and I could run it under tables and shelves for two sides of the room (I personally think it is a nice feature to have the trains disappear and reappear). I now have a double track line running the perimeter of the room without consuming much useful space and no extra infrastructure to set it up. I put a few structures here and there (e.g., a signal bridge and an 8 stud deep grain elevator facade, both of which I'll eventually post photos of).

Mike, all of the background on the hobby train is fantastic (I think they also molded the gray sliding doors specifically for that set). There were several things wrong with the implementation beyond using common colors, a lesson I think they've learned since almost all subsequent DTC sets feature rare colors. This set was one of the early lego factory sets, you had to use LDD to view most of the instructions so you also had to be computer literate (not everyone has a laptop on their building table), LDD was a graphics intensive implementation so if your computer was more than 2 yrs old you might not even have been able to run LDD, etc.. Needless to say, the entry bar for the hobby train was much higher than almost any other lego set. Then what rare parts there were in the set were simultaneously available in the newly opened online PAB (it was a lego factory set after all). So that undercut the possibility of parting out the set. Finally, to add another nail to the coffin, in the middle of the run it became clear that the traditional magnets were a potential safety hazard. So they blew the remaining inventory out at half off. Unfortunately, I don't think Lego fully appreciates all of these hurdles the set had that kept it from being a success. The AFOL train fan is a niche market for lego, so I suspect that is going to keep AFOL trains in the DTC for the near future (i.e., sets over $100, and probably only one new one every two years since the number of DTC sets is limited). After complaining at length on the ambassador forum that the Emerald Night only had one car I got a lengthy explanation that this was clearly a DTC set (because it had a five digit number), there are only a small number of DTC sets per year, DTC is completely separate from the normal sets, etc. (of course from the consumer side the DTC sets are mixed in with the non-DTC sets on S@H, with the only distinction being "exclusive"). Recognizing that the AFOL trains are a niche market, I suggested using the PAB facility to produce on-demand sets (at PAB prices) plus a few special items not available in the PAB, e.g., a sticker sheet or ??? Keep production costs down for a smaller production run, serve the niche market, and turn a profit. If they the train sets had a set number, some collectors would buy them as well (so it would go further than the user designed lego factory options of the day). I suspect the poor implementation of space skulls probably made this option a non-starter for the wrong reasons (If you are going to pick a set by hand, pick it by hand. If you are going to make a boxed production set, then it should not have been a "factory set"). It would be great if lego got clever and employed some of the design styles of the 1970's and 1980's in the AFOL train sets- i.e., including both a primary model and a secondary model. With the locomotive being the primary model and a few train cars being the secondary model but with the vision that the two would work well together. Build one option with the set and if you want a full train, buy another copy to build the other option. So not quite as far as the hobby train, probably more like the Santa Fe passenger cars in terms of flexibility and a more rigid common theme. Of course such a design would require a greater effort on the preproduction side, so here's another hurdle. There are some hints in this direction in the Maersk train (albeit very small). The cars can take two containers end to end (European style) or double stack (US style). I suspect lego is approaching Cuusso as "lego factory 2.0" and in the long run they intend to actually use it to serve niche markets like the AFOL train fans. They are starting out with a few sets per year, but once they get it moving, I bet the number of sets per year will grow. Remember before lego got the on-line PAB running that the original implementation of lego factory actually had a few different bags that you could be shipped and you got "bonus pieces" with most designs. I hope a nice Cuusso train car is in the future, but it probably won't be cheap. It has been a while since I've fired up LDD. It would be great if you could limit the available parts to one or more specific sets (that functionality might be in LDD already, I don't know). So that when you browse models, you'd know if you had set 10194 and "these parts" you could build this design. In this way any train set could become like the hobby train. Only the fans would design the alternative models after release. Then an AFOL group could have a competition for the best design and compile a good library for the community. Benn

Ah, the nostalgia this thread brings back. I think my fascination with long trains started in 2006 with this 18 car train. I don't recall if any of it was mine, but it was neat to see such a long train. Early the following year, I had a 37 car train and one of my favorites, the 33 car infinite train (much harder to fit the last car on the track than you would think it should be). I pushed it to 51 cars at NMRA that year (as well as several 40+ car trains elsewhere in the same folder). A few years later I had a 38 car steam double header and a 28 car steam triple header using heavier cars. I will still occasionally assemble a good long train at a show, but with the introduction of the XL motors it has taken a lot of the challenge out of it and with the high cost of 9v motors, I'm not sure I will be pushing the track powered envelope again. I have a few more long trains that I haven't had a chance to post yet.

Part 1 -part name: all existing tiles, jumper plates, and anything else with a fingernail grove -part description: modify the molds to remove the fingernail grove on ONE side (the long edge where applicable). Ideally the new tiles should have one completely flat side- appearing like the side of a plate, including the bottom corners; but even if the corner divots remained from the side fingernail groves it would be a big improvement. -part usage: to help AFOLs and other builders hide the transitions to/from SNOT while still retaining the functionality of being able to remove the pieces (three sides would still have the fingernail grove). Without this change it is difficult to make completely seamless transitions to/from SNOT. Part 2 -95343 (bucket 1x1x1) -part description: make in black, light and dark gray -part usage: steam engine smoke stacks, other exhaust pipes, thrusters, etc (places where the old palm tree, 2536, once could be found) part 3 -3794 (jumper plate) -part description: make in dark green -part usage: anywhere dark green can be found and half stud offsets are needed

Heh heh, great minds think alike (I hadn't seen this thread until now). Might have been mine that you saw at BW, here. No pinstripes on the boiler. I just couldn't bring myself to using all of that dark green on this design (grin) but I'm glad lego included all that dark green in the set (grin some more).