Duvors

I fail to see how that would help, the inability to target anything in melee range with an artillery weapon already accomplishes everything that a splash damage effect would without raising questions like 'do artillery weapons do splash damage to enemies as well' or 'do artillery weapons do splash damage to other players?' And considering how restrictive the action system already is making people reload their weapons would just make using ranged weapons tedious in the long run. And I don't think increasing the granularity of the system would help either. You can add as many new range increments as you like, but it doesn't make artillery worse or melee better. Actually they have, the Oozeling Stoic from the first battle had one. It never did any damage with it because of Endgame's rules blunder, but even if it did it wouldn't've been able to do more than two damage with it anyway. Which brings up something important; an artillery weapon may have a larger range, but it doesn't inherently do more damage or target more characters then any other weapon. As Endgame has already said, this really just turns ranged weapons into worse artillery weapons. To be blunt, I feel this would just decrease the tactical complexity of battles. And it would effectively require every character to carry the same loadout of one ranged and one melee weapon. A greater degree of granularity in design allows for greater differentiation in player's equipment without sacrificing overall effectiveness. One thing I will say is that I do think that artillery should have an upper limit to it's range, especially in light of a concept for larger battlegrids I've been working on. To come back to this thing, there's two things I want to point out: This image represents a system where the first interpretation of what squares are targetable is applied. As you can see there is a clear discrepancy, namely that artillery weapons are clearly operating on the second interpretation of the rule instead. This frankly makes them better then everything else in use. There are squares immediately adjacent to melee range that can only be targeted by artillery. I don't know about you lot, but to me the idea of having to use the longest range weapon in the game to target a square that close without moving just feels bad. The point is that in this example the is no parity between different weapon types. If balance is to be maintained then every weapon's targeting should work the same way, regardless of the system used. Upon further thought I've come more and more to agree with this proposal. It creates a greater incentive to use melee without removing the advantages of having range, and if compensates for the otherwise overwhelming superiority of artillery. And there's also the fact that it just feels better to me than all the weapon range adjustments everyone else has been proposing (including the ones I came up with that I haven't posted here).

It's not that I object to cooperation being required between players due to the nature of the system. What I object to is the use of the word 'forced' as it has connotations of aggressive coercion and being made to do things under duress. Everyone here is new to the game, especially the grid system (something the previous iteration didn't have). Yes, I understood what you we're referring to the first time, that's why I specifically went over the differences between doing that and using an artillery weapon. And you do realize that this is exactly what I said in the point that this is supposed to be a response to, right? The only difference I can detect is that you didn't go over the relative cons of doing this over using an artillery weapon as I did. You don't seem to understand, I have never objected to any of this. In fact I alluded to some of these things perviously as being strengths of the system and being arguments in it's favor. You have to understand that ultimately I'm fine with using either system, It's just that I prefer the second one because I feel it's a better representation of reality. Here, have a visual aid. For reference, purple indicates locations that can only be targeted by artillery.

I wouldn't object to that, it's just that the original proposal seemed to suggest making different status effects inherent to different forms of elemental damage. Several things: Neither system 'forces' more collaboration or strategy between the players, they simply alter the tactics available. And though I think collaboration is a good thing I object to being 'forced' to do anything. Players can still avoid attacks by moving to untargeted squares, the difference is between moving to one side and moving away from the enemy. The former is easier then the latter but it's still possible either way. The second system does not 'effectively make long range weapons into artillery weapons', an artillery weapon can attack any non adjacent square regardless of the wielder's position. A long range weapon can only attack every square in a grid within a specific range of grid sizes and positions within that grid. Positioning oneself so centrally would probably put the player in range of a multitude of enemies whereas using artillery would allow one to accomplish the same from a position of greater safety. And this is not considering the fact that the necessary squares might be occupied or inaccessible, that the grids in future may be far larger then the one's we're using now, or even things that haven't come up yet, like cover, terrain, or line-of-sight. Edit: Sorry, forgot this one. I just wanted to say that in either system determining attacks is still a matter of counting squares in a straight line, it's just that the number of allowable angles is different. That said I do agree with most of your other points and think they're good ones, I just don't think they're enough to convince me. While that might make up for the difference in ranges I'm slightly worried about creating specific exemptions to an otherwise universal rule. And I don't know if we can add a lot of that stuff while still being simple enough to be accessible. Still, I can't really see any other objections to the idea.

I have to disagree with this. Wasn't the point of having only three types of damage to reduce the massive dependency on items characters in the previous system had? Wouldn't subdividing damage types into effect based subsets just bring back that problem all over again and add unnecessary complexity to the system? As I understand it the emphasis in this system is supposed to be on the character's skills and abilities and not their equipment. A suggestion: Have the eight squares immediately adjacent to the player be melee range, the twelve squares adjacent to those in straight lines be short range, and the sixteen squares bordering the entire agglomeration be long range. This would result in an approximation of a series of concentric circles around the character. However, if I'm being honest that idea seems a bit finicky. I feel one of the original suggestions is not only more intuitive but more in line with the intent of the original rules. As for melee weapons I honestly don't see any reason for using them other than as a backup for an artillery weapon, the way the movement rules work at the moment really hobble them. But wouldn't making melee weapons rarer make it harder for people who want to primarily use melee to find upgraded replacements for their starting weapons? And wouldn't hobbling ranged weapons in that manner cause problems for people who want to primarily specialize in those? Remember, you have to spend points on proficiencies for weapons of specific ranges to make using them viable. And there's an attribute tax for using weapons of specific damage types, so people are going to want to specialize rather heavily.

That's what I was thinking, but the wording was so odd I had to ask. @Endgame I prefer the latter because it makes more sense in regards to internal logic, but the former allows for the ability to avoid attacks via positioning. Of corse in either case the internal logic is still a bit odd as in both cases weapons seem to have ranges that are square rather than circular.

"And I suppose the Sabrillo egg also deserved everything it got, hmm?" Enson will use his Plasma Potion.

Well in that case I have to remind you that Enson is in the wrong place. I placed him at B4, but on the grid he's at B3. I'm sorry, but what does this mean?

Goa'uld staff weapons (Stargate), PPG's (Babylon 5), Klingon Disruptors (Star Trek), and nearly every example from Doctor Who. There are probably more but I'm not familiar enough with the necessary source material to name them. The point is that different IP's function under different rules and even within a single franchise it can vary from example to example.

In fiction? Because most energy weapons I know of from sci-fi actually don't do that, phasers from Star Trek and the Zat'nik'tel's from Stargate are the only ones I can think of of the top of my head. There are stun weapons in Star Wars but I think those are designed specifically for that purpose rather than having a setting for it.

"A magician never reveals his secrets." said Enson. Enson will attack Jek.

"Sorry Jek," Enson said, "but in my defense you did pull a gun on me." Enson was in a bad position, his altercation with Jek meant that he had been right outside the door when it started spilling out people like a burst clown car. Surugging the shrug of a man resigned to his fate, he pulled out his hammer and set his sights on the dice-headed man. Enson will attack Trips Mcgalloway from B4.

That's entirely fair. In fact I'd be perfectly willing to accept the DC being higher then I can hit, it is a rather difficult task after all. And thanks, I'm glad to know you appreciate it. Though to be fair I never mentioned it until now so I didn't expect anyone to remember.

Eh, I don't mind. Especially since it let me try the thing I actually wanted to do.

Enson smiled politely and raised two hands in the air, holding them palms forward to show he wasn't holding anything. "Oh nothing much," he said, "just distracting you so my friend could get you from behind." While Jek was still reacting to this information, Enson's other* pair of arms lashed out from beneath his robes... Enson will attempt to (in order) hide his second pair of arms from Jek, deceive Jek into thinking he's about to be attacked from behind, use his medical knowledge to determine any weak points in Jek's biology, and punch him, preferably in said weak points (whew).

I get you, but in a mechanical sense I don't think creature types really add anything to the system. Remember that in the original game creature types were important because they determined elemental vulnerabilities/invulnerabilities, something that this game's armor/weapon types already do. I don't really see any role for types here that doesn't just add unnecessary restrictions or complications to character or enemy building.

"What? No! No no no no no. Yelana, Jek spent the entire trip here alone in a single seater spaceship. There's nowhere between his departure from GLESP and going through customs where the item could've been replaced. And if it was a fake from the start-" "Yes, yes, what he said. If it was a fake then the only reason GLESP would be so worried about it's theft would be if they were taken in too. And I don't see them being dumb enough to not carry out DNA tests to confirm the item's identity. Maybe the Cydonians don't have Sabrillo eggs on file, maybe they're more worried about it leaving the planet then arriving. We have no way of knowing and unless they've put a tracker on it and are about to blast down the doors and swarm in to arrest everyone it really doesn't change anything." Enson gestured towards Kleeck and Jek. "Anyway," he said, "it doesn't really matter. The plan's already started so I suggest we get a move on." Enson will attempt to sneak past Jek through the side door.

"I feel that something as flashy as that should be more a backup plan than anything else. But if we can get any bombs and have no other way out then feel free." He pondered for a moment before continuing. "Honestly I was thinking we could just walk back out the way we came in. If Samba's going to be back there guarding the valuables then I don't think there will be anyone guarding the doors, though they'll probably be locked." "That does bring up another problem though. If Samba is guarding the item that means we'll have to get past her. Any suggestions? Fighting her might be possible but I feel that would attract too much attention." "Kleeck." he said shifting to face the avian diplomat, "You mentioned distracting them? Excellent idea. As a suggestion why don't you pretend to be worried about security? Ask them it the place is soundproof, badger them to go back upstairs and check if the door is locked, that sort of thing. Yelana," he said, turning to face her, "I agree that the Cydonians lack of concern about the egg is worrisome, but that feels like something that could wait until after we have it. Does that sound good?" @KotZ @Classic_Spaceman @samurai-turtle @Goliath

While I have no objection to the name 'Saturn Family' as a fun little reference I don't think we should just steal an existing list of creature types from another source. Especially since it seems unnecessarily large and creature types are redundant to the current system anyway. On another note; since the subject of demons has come up what ideas do you all have for their nature? Now that it's been brought up I'm feeling a mite curious.

Enson leant towards the rest of the group and in a low tone said "I think we should follow them backstage, try and sneak the item out before they know what's happening. Anyone else like that plan?" @Kintobor @Goliath @KotZ @samurai-turtle @Classic_Spaceman

"The insistence on destroying the datapad is, again, something that would be the case either way. Remember, this is an illegal auction, the organizers don't want a paper trail leading to it any more than anyone else. And honestly i don't see any indication in that transcript that indicates nervousness on the part of the contact. If anything it sounds as if Jek is the nervous one and the other person is trying to calm him down. And the phrase 'business came up' is so vague and generic that it could just as easily mean criminal business as honest. And even if it was a normal job (which it does sound the most like to be honest) it still doesn't mean anything. Criminals often have perfectly legitimate businesses as fronts for their activities." Enson shook his head again. "I'm sorry Yelana, but I just don't see that happening. It seems too much of a gamble pull off without the participation of almost the entire bidding audience, which would sort of undermine the initial point. There's just too many unknowns and too many moving parts to be worth the risk. Now I can see the organizers having dummy bidders in the audience who will make bids to artificially raise the price of some items but drop out before the final bid. And I could see members of the audience forming a bidding pool, an arrangement where a group of bidders will only bid against outsiders but not other members of the group. But what you're suggesting, while it might sound fine in theory, wouldn't actually work in practice." "Oh! Sorry." said Enson with a bow, "I didn't realize you could hear me. My name is Ensonvilterayquis (or Enson if you prefer), and I presume you fine people are the ones responsible for this event?"

"Ah, thank you very much." said Enson taking the proffered drink and holding it in a somewhat cavalier way, hoping to disguise the fact he wasn't actually drinking any. Enson smiled to himself as he noticed the square-headed man's verbal tic. "There he is." he muttered under his breath. "Honestly," he said, seemingly as part of a conversation with his companions but loud enough for the gamblers to hear him, "I just hope that the items are being kept in a secure place. We went to a lot of trouble to find this place and I'd rather not have all that work be for nothing." Enson will spend two points to increase his Smarts to two.

"Oh. Errm, do I have to?" said Enson a little sheepishly. He looked at the serving droid apprehensively. It wasn't that he'd never taken alcohol or psychotropic substances or anything like that, it was just that he'd never indulged in any of them. The whole idea of indulging in anything seemed a bit alien to him. Still he felt it would be best to at least try and fit in. So he sighed and nodded resignedly, hoping there would be something small and relatively inoffensive on offer. Enson thought for a moment, then shook his head. "No that doesn't follow. Yelana," he said, "the egg is a highly valuable object, the only one of it's kind in fact, that Jek stole from his workplace the smuggled to a planet whose occupiers destroy contraband upon acquisition to be sold at a illegal auction. Anyone would be nervous and trying to cover their tracks in such circumstances regardless of who their contact on the other end was. And again, the item is the only one of it's kind and incredibly valuable. That alone practacly guarantees it's sale. I admit that your surmise could be true, but the arguments you have presented as proof do not actually prove your argument. They are indicators, things that would be true if your surmise was correct but do not prove it correct in and of themselves. In fact I think it is more likely that the voice on the other end is an organizer because the people running the auction are the ones who arrange what's being sold in the first place. You can't just show up at the last minute and ask if they'd be willing to sell your antique toy firetruck or whatever for you. And anyway, if Jek had a specific buyer lined up for the object why not just sell to him directly? Why go through the auction in the first place?" He paused and rubbed his chin thoughtfully for a moment before speaking again. "Out of curiosity though, how would you arrange to make certain that a specific buyer got a specific item that was up for open auction?"

"Yelana, this is an auction, you can't have a 'buyer' beforehand. That's not how this works. And anyway, I did say we should only try that if he was having second thoughts. Where did you get the idea he had a specific buyer lined up from anyway? Are you talking about that voice we heard on his data pad? Because that struck me as more of an organizer for the auction then anything else. Still, yes, we should find out who that was. Thank you for reminding us." "Sorry, a māra is a tempter, a demon, a spirit of evil, they're very bad news. And I'm not worried about radiation or anything like that, I am worried about your spirit, extended contact with māra or other unclean things from Outside can cause spiritual harm to a person. And if you were created by one he may have inserted something into you that allows him influence over you in ways other then the material." he paused pensively for a moment. "You know, I am an ordained priest. If I examine you and find anything wrong I can write a prescription for spiritual care if you need it. I would have to examine you first though, and it would still be best to get a second opinion before committing to any treatment." "Well as to that I'd suggest asking the dwarf, he works here and from his response to your question about antimatter I'd say he knows what is on sale today. And even if he does not know I am certain he can point you to someone who does."

"I'm sorry, are you saying your kind was built by a Māra? This is... this is serious. Can you tell me what he looked like? What powers does he possess? Have you been consecrated or otherwise purified since you last had contact with him?" Enson's tone sounded worried, as if he was concerned for the droid's safety. As Enson finished speaking he realized that the group had reached the bottom of the stairs. Seeing the room before them and their quarry seated at one of the tables, he quickly composed himself and held up a hand to indicate they should stay back. "Yes, thats absolutely right." he said in a voice too low for anyone outside the group to hear, "Now to be clear, we shouldn't tell anyone why we're really here. We can talk about the egg, but we shouldn't mention who sent us after it, why we want it, or how we heard about it. We can try to subtly direct the conversation to the item and see if we can find out where they're keeping it so we can filch it before the auction. If we can get Jek alone we might be able to talk him down from this and get him to help us, but we shouldn't rely on that plan unless we're certain he's having second thoughts. Now if we can't find out where they're keeping it or if we think we can't get to it then we may have to bid for it at the auction. If it comes to that we may have to pool all our money so I suggest we don't gamble, we don't buy any drinks, and we don't bid on any other items. Now if we can't bid high enough then we'll just have to steal it from whoever did. I'm open to suggestions on that front honestly, but I think we should do it somewhere out of public eye and far enough away that the proprietors of this establishment don't come to see what the ruckus is about. Does that all sound good? Any suggestions, dissenting opinions, thoughts? I am open to anything you have." @Classic_Spaceman @Kintobor @Goliath