blueandwhite

Again, I think your ignoring the obvious changes between KKII and earlier castle themes. The fact is, earlier themes were defined by traditional medieval cliches. The character designs were conventional stereotypes popularized in films such as Errol Flynn's Adventures of Robin Hood, or the Elizabeth Taylor version of Ivanhoe. These cliches can be also seen in books like the Chronicles of Narnia, and classic Warner Brothers Cartoons. Needless to say, this style is markedly different from the Space Knight theme we now have. The simple inclusion of Knights and castles does not mean that thematically, KKII and the earlier lines are connected. The classic-castle asthetic has long since been abandoned. Fright Knights (how I hate them) still fit in with the Royal Knights, BFs and Lion Knights. Their costuming is not that unlike the costumes from earlier years. Witches, Wizards and Dragons as seen in earlier lines are all over-used cliches borrowed from classic film. KKII has a distinctly Japanese flavour. The characters are modern, wearing brightly coloured space suits and breast plates. They ride mechanical scorpions, shoot flourecent sawblades, carry 'powerswords' and look by-and-large like the Power Rangers. To ignore these changes is absurd. These characters (allthough interesting) don't fit in with the other theme, whether people like it or not. Its like a stormtrooper appearing in Lord of the Rings. Later.

I think your intentionally ignoring some of the reasons the Adventures and Orient Expedition lines may be considered to be connected lines. Thematically, both lines are very similar. In fact, other than the time-gap between Adventures and Orient Expedition, the two lines are virtually the same. Our archeologist hero travels to various exotic locals (Egypt, South America, Dino Island, and the Orient) to fight villiany, search tombs and find treasure. In terms of design, the adventures line is quite consistant, presenting our archeologist hero as an adventurer during the 1930s. Sets generally include a vintage vehicle or exotic local (or both). Heck, the line has four characters that appear in both the Adventures and Orient Expedition lines (Pippen, Sam, Johnny and Kilroy). The design asthetic hasn't really changed from year to year (Orient Expedition is no exception, despite the time-gap). Each year, Johnny goes off on another adventure in a new and exotic place. It really is that simple. Still, you dismiss the fact that both lines star Johnny Thunder and friends. You also reject the other obvious thematic similarities between the two lines, including obvious influences from feature films like Indiana Jones. I've already stated them earlier in this thread, so I doubt restating them here will change your mind. Still, you haven't really presented anything that truly differentiates these two lines thematically. I have stated why, in my opinion, KKII doesn't fit with earlier castle lines. I have stated (clearly I hope) my reasons for believing that KKII is not a continuation of classic-castle. Perhaps you could tell me why I should treat Orient Expedition as being different from the earlier Adventures line. Finally, this doesn't have anything to do with the sets being horrible. The Fright Knights line is easily the worst castle line of all time in my opinion. It marks the decline and demise of an era. Most of the KKII sets are far superior to the disaster that was Fright Knights. Still, I include Fright Knights as a part of the castle line. I don't like it, but I accept it. This isn't about trying to exclude sets from a line because fans don't like them. I think this is a subject we will just have to 'agree to disagree' on. Later

Your overlooking the obvious differences between KKII and earlier castle lines. Previous lines share a number of asthetic elements that LEGO purposely dropped in order to gain a new audience. Conventional Knights with iron armour, were replaced by a new set of heroes, inspired by cartoon heroes. Primary colours are used to distinguish our heroes, and each character is given an exciting Bionicle-like mask (futuristic helmet if you will). This is a clear change in style. SuvieD, you seem to dismiss these not-to-subtle differences. See, this doesn't make alot of sense to me. You've told me that KKII is castle because it includes Knights and castles, yet Life on Mars isn't space? Doesn't Life on Mars include spaceships, robots and astronauts? Why is the inclusion of a castle enough to make KKII a continuation of classic-castle, when spaceships and astronauts aren't enough to make Life on Mars a continuation of classic-space. Isn't KKII more like science-fantasy than a traditional castle theme? It seems as if your attempting to force others to embrace KKII by including it with a now-defunct line of products which is more popular with many AFOLS. I do agree that Ninja probably isn't castle though(although, it too includes castles), and the Viking line certainly its own entity. What facts? I think your jumping the gun here. We haven't seen any sets from which we can make any sort of conclusion. Just because year 2 was better than year 1, doesn't mean that year 3 will follow this trend. LEGO always has its ups and downs when it comes to set design. There is nothing to say that this won't be the worst year yet. The only thing we've seen thus far is the maxi-figs. Hardly enough to draw any sort of conclusion. Don't worry about it. I actually enjoy hearing what you have to say.

Yes, however the characters in Orient Expedition are for the most part, the same characters we've seen in the earlier Dino Island and Adventure lines. And lets remember, the Adventure line is not in the true sense of the word, one LEGO's classic lines (Town, Space, Castle & Pirate). It was a line introduced when LEGO was experementing in an attempt to re-capture the interest of children. Ironically, the Adventure line is a precursor to most story-based themes including Bionicle. Johnny Thunder et. al. were the first truly developed LEGO characters. Essentially, Orient Expedition is a sequal/follow-up to the earlier Adventures line, incorporating many of the features and characters that made the earlier line so successful. Thematically, Orient Expedition and the earlier Adventures line seem virtually identical. We have an adventurer (Johnny) and his friends who go off to exotic locals, while dealing with various villians. The character is clearly inspired by characters like Indiana Jones. KKII on the other hand has no tie-in with KKI, or any other castle line. The story stands separate from earlier lines, and the design is somewhat... different, owing more to current children's programing than to conventional stereotypes of the middle ages.

Looks like somebody found a great use for Yoda |-D ! I suspect that at least one Yoda sculpture has been used to create the beach. Nice MOC.

Honestly, after looking at the maxifigs (large knights), I suppose people expect that the minifigs are going to improve. This year's maxifigs are wearing more conventional helmets in conventional colours (pearl grey, and black). Sir Adric and Karzon are wearing what appear to be a Great Helms. I suspect many fans are holding out hope for conventional armour in conventional colours (grey, bley, pearl, or black). In otherwords, people are hoping that this year's line will have something of a medieval feel, unlike year 1 and 2. At this point, its too early to make any guesses as to what the sets themselves might be like. . Ninja STILL IS GOOD :) . Much like KK, many people have debated whether Ninja is actually castle or not. Either way, this was a great line with a couple of fantastic castles and some of the best minifigs LEGO has ever produced. Unfortunately, it was produced at a bad time, and ultimately died out. If we get another ninja theme, I suspect it will be 'anime inspired', and feature a bunch of wacky characters fighting mutants/robots/and or dinosaurs :| ! Still, it was one of the nicer lines coming out of the late 1990s.

Whether we like it or not, bley is here for the long haul. LEGO has apologized for the change, but classic grey isn't coming back. Now, as a person with over 20,000 old-grey bricks, I won't be jumping on the bley bandwagon anytime soon. And yes, for castles bley is definitely not as nice. That being said, it doesn't look that terrible on its own. And lets face it, if you only have a small amount of grey, its not like its going to be easier to get more in the future. I suspect that in four or five years, classic-grey will carrying a huge premium over its newer counterpart. Heck, I figure that old grey may go for 5x 10x its current value. I will never make the change, but I would urge people with fewer than 2000 grey bricks to consider it (unless money is not an issue). I'm as angry about the colour change as one can get, but I'm not going to suggest to somebody with a small collection to start stockpiling a discontinued colour. It made sense a few years ago, but unless your planning in buying 5000-10,000 bricks right now, it probably isn't the way to go.

The colour change was bone-headed, but I don't think we'll be seeing a second change any time soon.. Actually, as a colour bley looks alot nicer then grey. Its more vibrant, and goes well with most colours. Just compare the old Millenium Falcon to the new one. Sure, it doesn't have the soft earth-tone of classic grey. That shouldn't really matter if you don't mix the two together. Of course, if your like me and have already stockpiled a huge collection of grey bricks, the colour change was like the coming of the apocolypse. In all honesty, if your collection of grey isn't that big, I would suggest collecting bley as classic-grey is only going to skyrocket in price in the next few years. A great place to start would be the Graveyard Duel. A great assortment of bley bricks at an unbeatable price! You might even consider selling off your old grey on Bricklink to get a head start on your bley collection. Try to avoid mixing them though, as old and new grey really clash. Later.

Personally, my favorite castle set was 6086 which was released when I was fifteen (hardly a set I grew up with). I'm not sure if age has alot to do with it, though it may play a factor. Today's kids simply have more forms of entertainment to distract them. LEGO is a small fish in a big pond! Preferences will also very if your a builder or a collector. Needless to say, no two minds are alike. As to 6080. It certainly had a number of positive points. The brick-built porticulus was great (its a design I continue to employ in various forms). It had a nice assortment of figures and weapons, and a large piece count. Of course, 6085 essentially did everything 6080 did, only on a grander scale. I certainly think that it was more than a mere 'box'.

Good luck :) ! I'm not sure you'll get a clear answer though. The thing is, I don't think LEGO has an official stance on this. Fan sites like Peeron also tend to be inconsistent. Dino Attack, Adventures and the like are all treated as being a sub-set of the Town theme, but they are also listed as independant themes. Brickset's theme list specifically separates KKII from Castle (though it includes KKI). These decisions are arbitrary, and will depend on the opinion of the person you speak to. Clearly defined themes seem to be a thing of the past, as more sets tend to be story-driven. Thematic divisions no longer hold the same meaning. Afterall, Xtreme Stunts was treated as its own theme, yet it fits with Town better than KKII fits with the previous castle theme. The way I see it, KKII is the beginning of a second castle theme, unrelated to the first. It is a unique product-line, designed to succeed in a market where the previous line failed. Many children's toylines are relaunched (He-Man, Transformers, Ninja Turtles etc.) in this manner. Each of us has our own opinion on this, and I doubt there will ever be an official answer. Later.

You really don't like classic LEGO do you? Kind of makes me wonder why you'd want to include KKII with other castle lines in the first place.

That's flat-out untrue. The fact is, 375/6075 offered a level of versatility rarely seen in today's sets. It is more akin to the creator line of sets, where the emphasis is on construction. In those days, LEGO's primary play feature was the fact you could build anything so long as your imagination was open to the possibilities. I have seen many fantastic castles made with predominantly basic bricks. To say that everything you build with a set like 375 looks pretty much the same is wrong. LEGO's play value used to come from the fact that it was a building toy. As you have pointed out, this model of business has changed considerably. KKII is first and foremost an action figure line that is largely story driven. The sets themselves are playsets, lacking the necessary basic elements to truly build a variety of interesting MOCs. Most of the MOCs built from the KK sets consist of nothing more than a few pre-fabricated walls, re-arranged in a new layout. Juniorization is nothing new of course (Fright Knights anyone?), but to suggest that 375 lacks variety is absurd. Having a set where most pieces are specialized to a single purpose or use doesn't give KKII sets variety. It makes them great playsets, simplified for a larger audience. Again, that's your opinion. Of course demand drives the prices up. That doesn't mean that these sets are in demand solely because they are rare. There are those of us who purchase our LEGO to build, rather than collect. As a building set, 375 knows few equals. And lets be real here. I have yet to see a great MOC made primarily from the KKII sets. I have certainly never seen anything that remotely resembles a shinto temple or spaceship. Sure, you can stack a bunch of wall pieces together and call it whatever you want. That doesn't make it so. Applying the standards you applied to 375, it seems to me that I should do the same. With 8781 and 8877 you can make a jumble of wall-pieces, a pile of pre-fab bricks, or a mountain of accessories! The fact is, sets like 8781 and 8877 don't have enough basic bricks to build a truly inspiring MOC. Indeed. Unfortunately, I will have to disagree with you. As I see it, KKII is its own entity. A line that has more in common with a comicbook or saturday morning cartoon than anything else. The sets, and colours are for the most part, incompatible with the earlier theme. If LEGO can draw a distinction between Train and Town, I sure can see the distinction between KKII and castle. Later.

No, 6075 (the yellow castle, not BF fortress) is the number for the US release of 375. It was released in 1981, 3 years before 6080.

Nope. In a lot of ways, 375 was pre-castle. Originally, it was sold along with LEGO town. Castle as a clearly defined theme didn't come about until 1984. I can understand if some people don't really consider it to be part of the castle theme. Still, this was the set that inspired the 1984-1997 castle line. It still shares more with the classic-castle theme than KKII does. Later.

I agree. I doubt that many people would suggest that 375, or any other LEGO castle is particularly realistic. Now this is something I strongly disagree with. The reason the yellow castle was so popular (it was sold for over five years) goes well beyond simple nostalgia. This set had a great assortment of bricks, and a large assortment of minifigs that has rarely been matched. It had a large piece count and allowed for an infinite number of varried MOCs. This set was truly a set for builders, and has since become popular with collectors! A bit of a generalization. I actually grew up with the original yellow castle, however I believe that the castle theme peaked in 1992 with the release of 6086 (Black Knight's Castle). We each have our favorites, and we identify with them for different reasons. In my opinion, this is a significant change. I'm not arguing that Knight's Kingdom doesn't include knights or castles. I'm suggesting that KK is its own theme. Dino Attack includes a helecopter and a jeep, yet it is by-and-large a self-contained theme, distinct from LEGO town. In fact, so far as I can tell, just about every theme with a developed storyline seems to be self-contained. The thing is, earlier themes intermixed. Lion Knights mixed with the BF who then mixed with the Forestmen theme and so forth. It was a natural progression from year to year. We don't see that same progression with most story-based themes (Adventures being a possible exception). KKII doesn't have any real ties with KKI, just as Alpha Team and Dino Attack are completely unrelated. EXACTLY!! This is also the reason that KK cannot truly be considered a continuation of the castle theme. By 1997, the castle theme was dying out. Weak set design certainly played a part, but it also indicated changes in the play-style of most children. LEGO Castle was all but dead. After the Fright Knight line, LEGO finally pulled the plug on the classic-castle theme. LEGO Pirates and Space suffered similar fates. In 2000, LEGO introduced KK, but it was far removed from its predecessors. Story became a key focus. Still, the line continued to draw on traditional images of castles, and knights. Ultimately, the line was killed. Move forward to 2004... KKII is finally introduced. This line has almost nothing in common with previous castle lines. Gone are the drab greys and blacks of yesteryear. Colourful armour, and futuristic helmets are the name of the game. Instead of horses, we are given wheeled horses and 'slammers'. In order to reach a wider audience, our heroes are given diverse names like Santis, Jayku and Vladek, instead of the decidedly-English Cedric and Leo. Heavy juniorization clearly establishes that these are playsets, not building sets. Each set comes with a fantastic comic (as seen in KKI) telling children how to play with their sets. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking KKII. I just don't feel that it is connected in any shape or form to the castle theme of 1978-1997. In your opinion. I don't expect LEGO to return to the 1980s. Children's play habbits have changed. To expect a return to the 'good old days' as it were is hardly reasonable. LEGO's current lines are consistent with trends in children's programing and entertainment. These sets are simpler than their predecessors, making them more accessable. Characters with names are easier to identify, strengthening the LEGO brand with children. Kids want simple snap together toys that they can throw together in a few simple combinations in order to play. KKII has given kids characters they can bond with, not unlike their favorite cartoon and comic characters. I'm sorry, this reply is taking far too long. I'm going to cut it off here. Personally, I don't believe that KKII is a continuation of the castle theme. It is its own theme, just like Alpha Team, Adventures, Dino Attack, and City are distinct identifiable themes. LEGO castle and Knight's Kingdom are two different themes. I don't consider Ninja to be part of the castle theme, and I certainly don't consider KKII to be an extension of classic castle. Later.

Indeed. The castle theme between 1978 and 1997 has always had its roots in European culture and folklore. The costuming, minifigs and castles were largely inspired by conventional stereotypes of the middle ages. Even dragons, wizards and witches of later lines fit into these stereotypes. From Robin Hood to Merlin (Majesto), the figures were easily identifiable. Much like the Ninja and Pirate themes, the Castle theme was based on classic intepretations of the period. Even dragons find themselves rooted in European lore (ie St. George). Castle steadily evolved, and subsequently died with FK. KKII shows a significant change in direction. The figures were given individual names. Their costumes were inspired more by recent children's programing (ie Power Rangers) than the middle ages. Weapons and armour no longer fit within the realm of the middle ages. Heraldry included exotic animals not generally associated with Europe, and the nights themselves were given strange names and a comic. This line bears closer resemblance to the new Exo Force line than it does the traditional castle line. In fact, the geometric nature of the swords and armour suggest a parallel world, not unlike the world of He-Man. No, that's not what I'm saying, and you know it! Between 1978 and 1997, LEGO produced a castle theme that was inter-connected from year to year. The sets were generally compatable, and shared a common connection to the folklore of the middle ages. Following the failure of KKI, LEGO abandoned these concepts completely in favour of the Jelly Bean Power Rangers we all know and love. To call this product a sub-theme of the currently defunct castle theme seems absurd. I am saying, there is nothing to connect KKII with the original castle theme, whether LEGO says so or not. More later...

Ok, I here where your coming from. I'm just not sure if you understand what I'm suggesting. Sure, a $99 set is going to bring a greater return (per unit) than a $6 dollar set. That doesn't mean that the $6 dollar set won't cover the cost of a new mold. I mean, wouldn't a $6 dollar be easier to sell in large quantities? Jabba's Message is an easy way for a child to pick up a R2D2, C3P0 and Bib Fortuna at a reasonable price. Sure, every kid wants the Falcon, but at $99 its probably harder to move as many units. And what I was really trying to say is that it isn't unprecendented for LEGO to produce an element unique to a single set. I don't really expect Krum's sharkhead to be used again any time soon. The same thing might be said about the Merman (again from 4762). I'm not holding my breath over a new Helmet for Lando, but I wouldn't be shocked if it happened. Later.

I see KKII as its own line. And as far as I know, so does LEGO. Thus far, there has been nothing to connect KKII to any earlier line. The line deviates significantly from the design style of previous Castle lines. More to the point, it really doesn't matter what LEGO says. Simply put, calling a zebra a horse doesn't mean its true. KKII is story-driven (an incredibly poor story, mind you), and has next to nothing in common with earlier castle products. Including the KK line with the Castle theme just doesn't make sense. I mean, how many people lump the Dino Attack, Aquazone or Adventure themes in with System Town? Its funny how the Ninja sub-theme is constantly lumped together with Castle, yet the Pirate, Western and Viking themes are treated as being distinct. And how many Space fans consider Life on Mars to be included with LEGO Space? Most of these divisions (or lack thereof) have been decided by fans. Heck, most North American fans refer to the classic lion knights as crusaders, simply because that term was used once in the US catalog in 1993. I see the relationship between KKII and the castle line much like the relationship between Town and Alpha Team or Dino Attack. Ultimately, Knight's Kingdom is its own line. It may have some elements that fit in with the castle theme, but it is clearly too distinct to be included directly with the rest of the castle theme. Later

For most long-time Castle (and Space) MOCers, the colour change was cataclysmic. It essentially killed any opportunity to expand our respective collections with new or exciting elements post 2003/2004. Obviously, this change doesn't have the same kind of adverse effect on collectors, or young builders who have yet to amass a real quantity of bricks. For vetrans, the story is very different. The word cross-contaminate has now become part of our vocabulary. I worry about mixing new and old grey, and generally avoid sets with large quantities of new grey (bley). I haven't bought anything Harry Potter related in over two years, owing to the colour change. I simply have no place for bley in my collection. Look at it this way. How would you react if you built most your MOCs out of yellow and white bricks, only to find out that LEGO would no longer produce those colours? Instead, LEGO decides to replace those bricks with dark yellow and off-white bricks at the suggestion of their marketing department. How would you react? Essentially, LEGO has informed you that your collection is obsolete. To usher in the new era, they introduce a new Pirate theme with powder blue cannons and transparent orange cannonballs. The pirates themselves are given silly names and funny costumes, having almost nothing in common with earlier lines. Would you consider that a continuation of the Pirate line? Heck, do pirate fans consider the Jack Stone/Junior Pirate line to be a true continuation of the pirate theme? I don't think so. So to make a long story short, yes Castle died with the introduction of bley.

Not necessarily true. Afterall, Princess Leia's 'bun' hairpiece is only available with the Millenium Falcon (either version). Hardly a common piece. Either version (old or new brown) is only available in a $99+ set. Similarly, there is nothing to suggest that LEGO had any plans for producing the sailbarge when they first manufactured Bib Fortuna's headpiece. I'm not saying that I expect Lando to get his helmet; I'm just suggesting that it remains a possibility. The Star Wars and Harry Potter lines seem to get alot of unique elements, even if they aren't used frequently. Later.

Unfortunately, your probably right. Afterall, its not like Lando's helmet would get alot of use (by LEGO that is) outside of this set (and possibly a remake of Jabba's Palace). On the other hand, we did get a Bib Fortuna headpiece. Who would have expected that? And as for the Sarlac Pit. I'd prefer it be included in another set. I want the Sailbarge to be as big as possible! Later.

So far, 2006 is looking like something of a mixed bag. Its going to be a decent year for collectors, but thus far things aren't looking great for builders. Positive: + The Ferarri sets continue to look good. It will be hard to top the truck from last year though. + The Planes look good, and the city vehicles continue to be top-notch. The Rescue Chopper looks fantastic! + The new designer sets continue to look solid. + New licences (Batman etc.) which will hopefully result in interesting sets. + Returningl lines such as the Vikings should look great. + KKII year 3 maxi figs show a marked improvement over prior years. Hopefully, the minifig sets will follow suit. Negative: - The new Planes look good. Too bad there isn't much building potential to be had. - The Exo Force line looks awful. A shameful attempt to capitalize on the anime trend. - The Airport. Uninspired design. Again, a lack of basic bricks limits versatility. - Juniorization seems to be on the rise. Overall, 2006 does not inspire me as a builder. Too many sets are little more than snap-together models with a few exchangable elements. Exo Force is easily one of the most uninspired lines I have ever seen LEGO produce. Overall, 2006 feels like something of a disappointment when compared to the year we've just had. Still, the day is young and there may be some great sets on the horizon for the second half of 2006. Later.

Even if this was multiple purchases over the span of a few years that's still alot of money spent on this MOC. So, Mr Blueandwhite, how much LEGO do you have left over? :-D Yes, its market value is probably over $2500. That being said, I have received LEGO almost exclusively from relatives for my birthday, and for Christmas over the past 4 years. I actually have a nice stockpile of old grey built up over the years. This year, I expect that I will again be receiving nothing but LEGO for Christmas. Many fans collect sets or minifigs. I collect Bricks. My collection is such that I could probably build a castle 2x the size of Brickmoor at this point (in the planning stages as we speak). Remember, the size of your collection also depends on what other things you collect. I am first and foremost a LEGO fan. Accordingly, my collection is quite large. Many people have speant more money than I have on rare elements or minifigs. I have no interest in overpaying for unique elements. As to the exact size of my collection... That's hard to say. Judging by his photos, I would hazard to say that my collection comparable to Norro's collection. Later.

As I said over at Classic-Castle, this set is something of a disappointment. If LEGO can produce large, well-designed sets for the Star Wars line, is it wrong to expect something similar here? I mean, this set is easily the most <insert that tiresome argument> thing I have ever seen. Sure, for collectors that may be fine, but for builders this set really falls short. In fact, this set reminds me of this more than LEGO. I like Playmobil alot, but it isn't a construction toy. LEGO's best feature has always been its unlimited play value. Unfortunately, this set fails to capitalize on this. I can't express how disappointed I am with this set. It looks great, but when it comes to LEGO, looks alone simply aren't enough. Later.