Wolfpack

Well... BDP (in current format with current production capacities) started in 2024 and that was the year the last classic Icons sets were released. Yeah, I mean the sets were still available until they retired, but there were no new classic Icons sets after the beginning of BDP. The only exception was Blacktron renegade in 2025, but as you mentioned threre have been no space sets in BDP. I never said that BDP sets completely 100% replaced Icons sets, but that they found a sucessfull replacement for them in the economic sense.

It is same as each year. Series 5 were scheduled at the exact same time and had the all-time record selling set of 49.000. I think this series will sell out like the last one. It might even have the opposite problem, as it has strong contenders. If all the sets will be trending fine, there might be no space for adjusting the allocations. So far there has been no correlation between sales and the calendar.

I did not want to imply Icons sets are completely dead, as they would probably still make some at least for anniversaries, but they found a successful replacement. I would also not say BDP is as niche as you think. The castle sets sell up to 50.000 units, 3x that is 150.000k castle sets sold per year alone! That is comparable to some Icons sets sales and and the BDP sets are much much cheaper to make. No marketing costs, no desinging costs, no instruction costs, no new moulds, no prints, no new minifigures, no risk whatsoever. Of course they prefer making them. I was thinking more in the sense of "they are intended for adults, it is not a problem for them to pay more, they have a lot of desposable income" etc. The Creator sets in my view prove that it is not so straightforward, because people (including kids) love cheaper classic sets and it is really a shame there were no cheaper Icons sets in the style of GWPs. If creator pirate ship for 100 eur sells so well I see no reason why the "normal" pirate ship would not. I have a feeling that after the initial success they were pushing the prices (and sizes) of Icons sets too high, but all in all my argument was that the popularity of Icons sets alone does not measure the popularity of classic themes, because the price is a huge factor. I think a 300 eur Dreamzzz set or something would sell even worse. Heck, they even retired the Temple Bounty early despite Ninjago being so popular and despite it costing "only" 200. And yeah, Lion Knights Castle is great, but for 400 I would actually prefer a whole line, a 150 castle, a 100 something set, a 50 something set etc. That would probably be more suitable in the unpopular opinions thread, because I have no official statistics to back it up, but I would like to end with a more controversial take. From everything I know I have a strong belief that "themes worth doing" in the last instance do not base in sales. I would say that on average the sales of nonlicenced and licenced themes are more or less similar (except some obvious exceptions of course) and that the main focus is on costs. Licenced sets are much easier and cheaper to make, both from the design perspective and from marketing perspective (as fan base already exist, not fans of lego but of some IP) and this is why they are making them. It is not that people like classic or nonlicenced themes less or that they sell worse, they are just harder to make. So they only make sets where they expect exceptional sales like Lion Knights Castle. If the sales are normal they have no incentive to make them.

I do see BDP as a replacement for Icons sets. Not a good replacement, but a replacement nonetheless. One proof are also new minifigures in Creator sets, they make BDP classic sets possible without Icons sets. Currently not a single Icons vintage set is available and also none are announced. It all went down in 2024 when BDP started. Eldorado fortress, Medieval town square etc. apparently sold worse than expected, while Creator sets are a hit. That proves that price actually is a factor and that many classic themes fans want smaller sets despite some people claiming otherwise.

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You do realise that this argument goes both ways? With all the parts there is no need for licenced themes either. Star Wars fans can just buy a bucket of grey bricks and build whatever they want. The debate here is fundamentally not about what you can build as a MOCer, but what lego is offering, what are they presenting and promoting and what kind of a fanbase are they creating. And it does not look good for the nonlicenced themes, it is a downward spiral. It will soon be four years since the last introduction of a nonlicenced theme, a record since the eighties. So, what can we expect in the future? I believe we might get a third nonlicenced theme in the future, but only when it will be something they will not be able to shove under other two themes and will also not compete with IPs. The space is out because of legal constraints, history themes are more or less out because of BDP, something like agents is probably out because of Marvel and DC, a theme for girls is out because of minidolls, so what is left? Maybe some wacky underwater theme could be possible, as there is no competing IP and because it could be modern enough and action/conflict oriented. Or something related to technology, although the last introductions of vidiyo, hidden side, smart bricks etc. were not too sucessful. And even if there was no new theme in the next years I would not be surprised. They could simply release those few nonlicenced sets they want under Icons.

This is maybe not the topic for it and it should go the unpopular opinions thread, but I remember one legendary designer explaining in an interview, when Star Wars came in 1999, how the designing process changed with licences and how they hated it. So I just wanted to say there is some objective difference, of course not delving into whether slop is the right word to describe it.

Yes I know that, but I think the difference would be only minor and it would be a small price to make a really premium product. It will probably not happen, but I think it is still more realistic than they all of a sudden starting to make more classic Ideas sets. That is my objection actually. It is too easy. BDP is so lazy, they are getting away with it too easy, to cheap and too good. And there is basically nothing we can do. If we buy more sets, they will say the sistem is working, everything is fine. If we do not buy them, they will say see, there is no interest in castle, pirates etc.

Not true. That never happened! So far all the sets got produced. 3000 sets is minimum and all the sets got 10.000 or more orders (Lost City had the least and that was about 10.000 as far I remember), average has been 30.000, which is not much less than some exclusive sets (unofficially some d2c sets have a production run of less than 100.000) Also you must take into account that marketing and advertisement for BDP is basically nonexistant. Despite that and despite having no new parts the sets are sold out in a week with no problem. With new parts, instructions, proper marketing and availability on the lego site the sales would be huge. Black Falcon. Yes, that is what I want. BDP should be removed and Ideas should have those unlicenced sets instead. If not all, than at least one round per year should be done this way. Lego bought BL after all, I am not a fan of that, but they should at least take the better advantage of it. They can make them limited to 50.000 or something and in one run as far as I care, if prodution capacities are the problem. BDP in current form makes no sense, it is just PAB for other people MOCs.

Both programs have their problems. I would prefer if they would take the BDP selection and make them "normal" sets like Ideas. In Ideas the last set I liked was Viking Village and even that one was selected by target not by lego! They had some thirty sets after that, but basically all licenced or some recreation of an object or an animal. In BDP I like most of the sets, but they bring nothing new (except for sticker sheet), not even instructions. Why cannot they select such sets for Ideas??? Keep BDP only as a selection process and make all sets in Ideas.

I know, it is something some people in this topic care about. You could use a new part like a saddle for both castle and western (and some other themes), that was my point. As far as torsos are concerned, the last vawe od Dreamzzz had 15 or more different torsos in five sets, so it is more than doable to make two themes with that number and that budget or even three. With a clever combining of moulds the difference in new parts and new prints would be small, but a difference in diversity would be huge. You could also do one wave in the summer and the next one next year, it would not change much, as long as more themes would be available at any time.

I would also prefer single themes, I was answering what a next best thing or a compromise would be. Single themes are of course the best as lego can then create absolutely anything they want and have no constraints.

Not really. If you would quote the whole post I actually explained that you would need next to zero new parts, as all the gear would be (and mostly is already) in production. So you would need only new (mostly torso) prints, which is basically more or less the same whether you have five sets of two different themes or five sets of one theme. But it would give much more variety to the fans (instead of five or six castle torsos three castle and three space torsos). It would also make the general theme perpetual, which seems to be so important for some people here, so there would be Eternal sets on the shelf all the time and that would also make a place for any classic theme and you would not need to shove it under city. So it would solve the marketing concern some people here have about classic themes. Also those who do not like space for example would have something elso too choose from and in two years they would get two new themes. Ideally they would keep castle/pirates/space torsos on PAB until new sets for this theme arrive. It is not perfect, but it is the next best thing, what they asked for. It "solves" the "problem" for those who say it is not about the number of formal themes. It would formally introduce only one new nonlicenced minifigure theme, together making them three.

I think the marketing would be very important in such endeavour. They could do a new brand lego Eternal, Timeless, Evergreen or something, maybe yellow boxes and then mix all those themes. 2027 two or three castle sets and two or three space sets, 2029 two or three pirate sets and two or three western (or adventurers etc.) sets. Those themes should not be too hard or too expensive to make. Most of the parts are in the production anyway. They would need some ten headgears to fix as basic moulds to be available all the time and they could make basically anything. The same goes for weapons, ten would be more than enough, most of them are already in produciton anyway. Everything else is also already available in other themes, so no problem there. With some recolouring and torso prints, maybe adding some usefull stuff from the contemporary CMF line or a new part here and there the options for new factions would be limitless. If it does well, just add more stuff. If the designs were half decent I am sure they would not make a loss. It would be also a great help for BDP, which could focus more on other stuff and keep the remaining sets more genuine.

No. There has been no lego set that would interest me since 2024 and lego is doing nothing I actually like these days, but in the 1990s I would have the whole catalogue (except town). I never liked town (too realistic) or Ninjago, so there is nothing for me. And it is not just about me, it is even hard to buy a gift nowadays. Kids love original themes, trust me they do, but except for Creator you have to buy them old sets or GWPs on the internet, because all castle, pirates, space etc. are sooo big and expensive (and mostly 18+, although many are realistically not that hard). That is exactly the reason I started the debate in this topic that spurred so much controversy. I do not care for foreign IP and licences, if I would then I would buy their original books, movies or whatever. And I do not want to support Disney, J.K. Rowling or FIFA. I mean compare the new Sports theme with proper lego football from 2000. The latter was an actual fun original play theme based on a real activity (football), the modern one is just some Ronaldo Messi slop to profit from the World Cup. As SpacePolice89 said: Only a new in house theme that isn't all over the place could revive my interest in new Lego sets. So it is not all about reviving classic themes, as some forum members stubbornly and continously try to plant us. On the contrary, I want lego to create new themes, particulary new historic and scy-fi themes. But there is no such theme on the horizon. In the old days there were numerous new themes each year, now the last original theme was... Dreamzzz in 2023? Imagine that, the last theme lego introduced already retired. And then some people have the nerves to say that lego is catering for the non-licenced themes fans just fine. I would maybe even satisfy with BDP, if just they had instructions and if the designers had a little more freedom about the palette. I mean just keep the basic assortment of hats in production and maybe enable some recolours and torso prints. If there are hundreds new for all the CMF and BAM minifigures, why could not each designer have one torso print for his set?

And for me it maters. It can be used in Romans, Castle, Greeks, Ninjago, even superheroes etc. I love that! It is what I want lego to be. I really do not undestand what is wrong with me expressing that.

With such strawmen arguments you tell more about yourself then about me. It is funny how you can enjoy that I cannot enjoy and how I should not even be a consumer because I expressed some unpopular opinions (all backed by stats) about the direction of the company in the thread intended just for that. Basically your only "argument" is: What you like is wrong and if you do not like what we do, get lost.

Yes! Both by design and by legal contracts. I do not like this. I prefered the old lego universe where parts were versatile and a theme like Time cruisers was possible. And it is not a good thing, because there are only two (or three) nonlicenced themes left.

Exactly! That is why I said we mostly agree, but are talking about different things. Maybe I was not clear enough all them time, but most of what I am saying here is actually founded in stats, that is why I find it unfair that some people (not saying you) try to dismiss or discredit it as pure nostalgia. I gave you link before and here is another one that proves my points. It is from a few years ago, but the trend are clear. https://www.kaggle.com/code/martinellis/prominence-of-special-parts-over-time-visualised

Glad you mentioned that. It is a great example. The classic dragon was made that way, because the head and the tail part was the same as the crocodile and the designers also showed a possible use of that parts for the Loch ness monster that is why it wass allowed to be made in the first place. This is not true at all. The prototypes I am talking about show the actual official plans of the lego company and its designers, most of them were shown by the former employees in BrickJournal. Of course a random MOC-er can use anything, but generally lego is not, they are bounded legally, just look at the BDP palettes and PAB. Again, not true, you are relativising this. It is not about cultural interests, but cultural contexts. I am explaining this from the designers point of view, not interests of someone. The Darth Vader helmet can (and even legally needs to!) be used only in one single cultural context, the cultural context of the Star Wars. The same goes for FIFA trophy or golden snitch. The designer cannot really be creative about it. And even in the rare occasion when he theoretically could be, he is legally not alloved to. So the question is not in which cultural contexts you can use a part, but in how many and I strongly believe that old parts were possible to be used in more cultural contexts then (some of) the new licenced ones. The old parts were certainly produced and designed with that in mind, which I cannot say for the Star Wars helmets or similar parts. If modern parts were so usable and versatile they would not need ten thousand of them and they would not create so many new each year.

I agree with the most things you say, althouh I have a feeling that we are talking about different things. Whether Seatron or Europa were released or not is irrelevant for me, as I am talkinkg about possible uses. And I simply do not see another possible use for a FIFA throphy or a golden snitch. And of course a saddle is used as a sadle. What else should it be used as? But as you nicely said it is used in different cultural contexts, therefore different themes, that is the versability and usability I am talking about. The FIFA throphy can be used only in a cultural context of football world cup, many Star Wars pieces can be used only in a cultural context of Star Wars etc. And yes, I have some statistics to back this up. "We see here again that the 1980s and 1990s were a good period in relative terms for releasing long-lived parts that have only just been retired." more here: https://safetydave.net/lego-and-software-lifespans/

Exaclty! The same baseplate could have been used for space, pirates, castle and underwater. The helmets, swords and others were used for different factions and subthemes and are mostly still used today after 30 or 40 years! The saddles were used for castle, western, Europa, Paradisa etc. Minifig hair were generic enough for anything. Those were the parts!

I understand all that and I already explained that monorail track parts were usable for at least three themes! It could be also useful for mines in Western, Jungle etc. I was also not a fan of bionicle for exact that reason. I never said that modern sets are just a bunch of specialized parts with no other use. I just showed that lego produces more specialised parts than before. There used to be 1000 different parts and you could build anything. Now there are what, six or ten thousand, many of them like those up there. Especially the minifigures, there used to be generic people and knights and spacemen, now there are hundreds of modified heads and helmets that have a single use only.

How many uses does a part like this have and in how many themes it can be used? https://www.bricklink.com/v2/catalog/catalogitem.page?P=7994#T=P&C=21 or this https://www.bricklink.com/catalogItemIn.asp?P=35818&in=S or this https://www.bricklink.com/catalogItemIn.asp?P=37704&in=S There were basically no such parts in the old days.

If this windshield (useful for aquanauts, model team, town, maybe space) is the most limited piece introduced in 1990, then you probably agree that parts in were pretty versatile back then? This 1985 part is strange indeed. I do not even see the primary use for it. I would like to see what possible uses designers pitched when they proposed it. Or maybe they adopted the rule because of this piece. :)