Andrew Laurent

Oh, you mean the gambit that you said probably wouldn't work, and then had a whole PM conversation with Peter supposedly trying to catch a scummo? How does that prove either of you two as loyal? Either: A. You're scum buddies, so you could have your private chat in the scum board to plan your PMs that could be posted, or B. You're scum and he's not, in which case, SHOCK, he didn't fall for your trap.

Ah yes, the "why look for the killer, the one thing we can actually trace down via night action history" gambit. Because you know that the only logical explanation for the night kills is that YOU are the killer. Hence my vote still on you. Town, when I flip loyal tomorrow, assuming there IS a tomorrow, remember how much I've warned you that Vincent has played you us like a harp. And like a french horn. And like a piano. And Peter, well, maybe he is scum. I only know FOR SURE that he wasn't the killer last night. Therefore, I'm still keeping my vote on the ONE person I know 100% absolutely for sure MUST be scum. Mr. Tuba. Fwom, Fwom to you too. Um, yeah, that's exactly how EB mafia works. The kill is the one role that the scum get to keep forever. When we lynch the killer, that ability moves on. Usually the scum get to choose who takes that ability and therefore what ability they lose. That's why I'm so adamant that we HAVE to be right in getting a scum tonight. I think we still have 2 scum left and 3 town. So we lynch wrong (aka lynching ME) and the scum get a kill tonight, and it's game over. If we no-lynch tonight and the scum get a kill, game over.

This is such bad logic. Yes, Aiden would have to be a night kill. But from a scum perspective, AIDEN DOESN'T NEED TO DIE. His role is virtually no threat to the scum. Yours IS. You keep claiming I blocked you. If I'm scum, why would I have done that over just killing you? Then I REALLY wouldn't have to worry about who you tracked last night. Much simpler, and your logic that killing you would have caused a "who's the scum" between Fred and I doesn't hold either. Yes, you dying last night would have caused that debate. But we're having it anyway, so killing you vs killing Aiden doesn't affect that. I have been discussing things with Vincent for days. I passed along his suggestion last night because at the time, I was believing his neutral claim and was trying to let someone OTHER than me pick who did what so that we WOULDN'T be having this debate today about how scummy I look. Obviously I screwed up in trusting him.

Peter, wow, not even considering Vincent as scum? The more I consider it, I think Vincent is just having fun with us now. Playing us like a harp. Not a tuba - they're big and clunky and have no finesse. No, he's being trickier than a tuba. Loud like one, THAT he is doing. Vincent and Fred - Vincent kills, and Fred has been his scum buddy (to be fair, I've kept Vincent in the loop for several nights too since I wrongly trusted him). So it makes sense - last night, I'm betting Fred didn't send his action in till the last minute, to make sure Emmett was changing plans as suggested by Vincent. Fred blocked Emmett to throw suspicion on me AND to ensure that he couldn't actually track Vincent the killer. Clever... and you might just pull it off. You've played an impressive scum game, and now it all comes down to who is more trusted. The guy who hid his role for days, then lied about it, and is STILL lying about it. Or the one stuck with a weirdly named role but who has consistently helped the town try to catch scum. I voted early on Joshua. Would I have done that to a scum buddy, bussed him on day 2? You gotta be kidding me. Yesterday Vincent got screwed over by his scum mate Trenton - Vincent THOUGHT they could pull off fake PMs to protect Trenton, so he brought it up immediately with a vote, so Trenton could whip out the PMs. And then Vincent went, Oh wow, thanks, you're awesome. But he assumed he could unvote once he had a case on someone else. Instead, Aiden showed up and caught the fake PMs and Vincent was stuck.

If I'm town, which I am, then I'm voting for a scum right now. Let me go over it again. I'm town. I blocked Peter last night, so he's not the scum killer. Who could be? Aiden's dead and town, so not him. Emmett? We've gotten tracking info from him. Fred we've gotten block info from. That leaves Vincent. And if Vincent is the killer, then Emmett is in on it since Emmett claims to have been blocked last night. Or Fred has to be in on it, having blocked Emmett. I initially said Emmett HAD to be the scum partner of Vincent, but I've since realized that's not quite true. My original reason was that Emmett reported V doing nothing night 1. Well, I think initially V was a bulletproof goon and Joshua was the killer. That means night 1 Vincent really DID do nothing. But either way, Vincent is the one constant who HAS to be scum as the only possibility for the killer. Again, that's such a complicated leap. Why not just kill you and not have to worry about it? Your "swap what I'm doing" scheme was a failure because I saw right through it. It made no sense for you to accuse Vincent and change your tracking target. More importantly, you say I masterminded a scheme to have you "catch" Fred? Nope. Where did that list of actions come from? IT CAME FROM SCUMMY VINCENT!!!!! Here's the PM to prove it. He had this whole scheme plotted out. Have the blocks and tracks, and then have you change your action at the last minute. You know, the more I think about it... I'm leaning more towards Vincent/Fred as the scum duo. I haven't gone through all the night actions to see if it works, but it might.

What would I have said? I'd have said the truth - but I'd have been able to make my case first instead of poor Peter already having 3 votes on him before he or I could respond to the story you and Vincent spun. Vincent, why on earth would a theoretical scum-me and scum-Peter have killed Aiden? If I was scum last night I'd 100% had us kill off Emmett. No tracker means no one could tell what we did. The only logical reason that Emmett is still alive IS THAT HE IS SCUM. Whether the scum team is me and Peter, Fred and Peter, anyone other than Emmett, Emmett should have been killed last night. Why kill Aiden, the guy who can't do anything to interfere with the scum? The only reason is because Emmett is scum, you are scum. Killing Peter would have killed off your prime blame target. Killing off Fred would have killed off another. Killing me, ditto. You killed Aiden because that removes a townie from the numbers and left us as people for you to blame. I KNOW that Peter isn't the scum killer because I successfully blocked him last night. That's all I need to know - he's not the killer, therefore I had to look at other options. Fred, at this point I assume you're not scum. As I said, if you're scum, Emmett would be dead.

Well this sucks. Suddenly Peter and I are being accused of being a scum team, just because I wasn't the first one to post today. So brace yourself for a Vincent-style wall of text. I blocked Peter. I was successful. I'd love to quote the PM to prove it, but that actually is prohibited in the rules. I'm tempted to break the rule anyway, but that would hand the game over to them since the any penalty votes would allow the 2 remaining scum could just vote for me and unstoppably force my lynch. So sorry, but you all have completely taken this wrong. Peter can't be the killer because I blocked him. I said I would and I did. I think Vincent is a lying scum. And Emmett is his scum buddy. Emmett is a scummy tracker, and Vincent is the scum killer. The ONLY "proof" that Vincent isn't a scum killer is Emmett's early claim to have tracked him and seen him do nothing. Emmett has been able to report otherwise truthful tracking results because he could just avoid tracking scum except for the night Trenton stayed home and so he tracked him then. Now he's claiming to be blocked to throw massive suspicion onto Fred and I. Last night Emmett threw an idea into the group PM with Fred and myself. He said he was going to track Vincent because he thought V was a serial killer. He thought that V was playing too aggressively for a survivor. I saw right through that - why would a serial killer play any more aggressively than a survivor? BOTH those roles would lay back and try to be non-suspicious, even as bulletproof. Neither would stand out, so why would Emmett ever make such an accusation to us? Go read up on Bulletproof on mafiawiki: So a bulletproof mafia goon is totally logical since we clearly did have a vigilante. All he had to do was play townie enough that we never tried to lynch him, and he clearly was successful at that. They've even admitted to scheming together - but instead of trying to catch one of the blockers, they were instead using that plan to frame me. They waited till Fred and I had sent our blocks in, then made up this plan that we could no longer stop. Fred, basically I'm talking to you. A little to Peter, but I'm sure he'll vote wherever I do since that's his only prayer of surviving today. Did Emmett's "late game twist" as he called it sound as fishy to you as it did to me? Yeah, I replied to him playing along to see if he could justify his nonsense accusation, and he never replied. Funny how my PM questions from 22 hours ago didn't get an answer, when clearly Emmett and Vincent have spent the day hitting refresh on the mafia forum. Vote: Vincent You've played this town like a harp and it's time for that to end. To be clear, I think Vincent STARTED out as a bulletproof scum goon. Joshua then would have been the scum killer. When he was lynched, Vincent took the kill role and probably lost the bulletproof, but he'd already spent 2 days posting walls of text, so he had to keep that up or we would have known something changed.

Hey, question Emmett - what was the actual name of your role? I'm curious, since I'm obviously slightly scummier looking since I claimed second... but I noticed that most of the role claims we have are "weird" named - governor (not a common role), vanillaizer, seraph knight, bulletproof survivor, etc. So are you actually a "tracker" or did you get a more unusual name?

Admittedly, that's where it possibly falls apart. Maybe Aiden figured Trenton was busted as soon as Vincent started asking for PMs and bussed. If he assumed that someone would find it, it might as well be him getting the credit. I'm also heavily weighing into it that Aiden is the one person that is safe to be wrong about - he can resurrect himself if he's telling the truth. If it's not Emmett or you, then yes, it basically has to be a Fred vs Andrew call. And since we've both demonstrated our block ability, we'd have to be partnered with Peter. (and there. All 7 of our names in this post, so EVERYONE will read it even with a Ctrl-F playstyle...)

I am not 100% sure that Fred is town, no. He's acted overall very townie, so if he's scum he's done a great job hiding it. I'm also not including scenarios where I'm a scum since it's not true. You'll have to investigate those yourself. Here's my analysis of the night kills, ignoring all the dead townies since they're obviously not the scum killer. Night 6, with a scum kill, the killer could have been Vincent, Aiden (if he has a ninja ability), Aiden (if Emmett lied), or Peter (if Fred lied). I've said I don't think Emmett is scum, so that one possibility is probably off the table. Night 5, with no scum kill, the killer could have been Aiden (blocked by me), Peter (blocked by Fred since Fred was tracked by Emmett), or Vincent (not using kill to confuse us) Night 4, with no scum kill, the killer could have been Aiden (not using or tried to kill a protected Emmett), Peter (blocked by me), or Vincent (blocked by Fred). Night 3, with no scum kill, the killer could have been Aiden (not using it), Peter (not using it), or Vincent (jailed). Night 2, with a scum kill, the killer could have been Aiden, Peter, or Vincent. Night 1, with a scum kill, the killer could have been Aiden, Joshua, Peter (since fred was unsuccessful in blocking him since I blocked Fred), or Vincent (if he has a ninja ability or Emmett lied). Going through all that, Aiden is the one who could POSSIBLY be a scum killer without anyone lying for him - if he has some ninja ability so he wasn't see last night. Or you, but I believe your 3rd party claim. Aiden is the only possibility I see if we started with 3 scum. If we started with 4 scum, then it could be Aiden/Emmett (doubt that) or Peter/Fred (but that means that either Fred tried to block his teammate on night 1, why would he do that, or Fred lied in his claim to have blocked him and probably actually tried to block one of the early dead. He was unsuccessful (because I blocked him) and perhaps thought it was a good time therefore to CLAIM to have blocked his teammate). Out of all that, if I'm placing a vote for the lynch after Trenton, I'm going Aiden and blocking Peter. That way if Aiden is the scum, it's probably over, and if we're wrong, he can unlynch himself and Peter won't be able to kill anyone (unless Fred blocks me from blocking Peter, but then I'll be able to report I was unsuccessful).

Apparently yes I do need sleep. I truly do not at all remember looking that up and talking to you about it - it was over a real-world WEEK ago!

Sure, I'll block Peter tonight. Seems like a good test to me.

You wall of text has so many places you put the wrong name I'm confused trying to follow it. But there's a couple key comments I need to make. Obviously, I have no way to prove to you that I'm legit and I successfully blocked Trenton last night. I know it's true, and therefore, he's scum, but he's not the killer. From your perspective, yep, you've gotta decide whether you believe me or not. You say that scum can swap roles around. But assuming they ALL had roles (since apparently everyone but Alex in the town does) then why would they get to trade anything other than the kill? When I've been scum before, I don't remember being allowed to choose which non-kill abilities we kept. The only time I remember non-kill roles moving around was when someone died and we had a goon available to inherit the ability. Or maybe Joshua was the killer and they had to choose a role to sacrifice to keep the kill ability, and they gave up blocker because they had better roles to keep. I don't know. I'm not in the scum PM group.

WTF dude? I never guessed he was a seraph knight. I had to google that when you posted it. He'd said at some point that his protection ability was limited, which I was assuming was either x-shot or alternating nights. I think I mentioned THAT to you, but it never crossed my mind that he was fixed to a single protectee as a seraph knight. Here, I even went and found what he'd claimed way back on day 3: He used the title knight, but I honestly never looked into details on what his role could be. Yeah, I probably should have, but I didn't.

Have to go to my real job, and come home to us actually having caught a scummo! Well done, finally. Vote: Trenton And so now do we start discussing tomorrow's lynch plans? I know Trenton can't be the killer since I blocked him last night, so our night-kill analysis should be unaffected by his lynch here. Vincent, I was re-reading your scenarios from the start of the day. You're right, that the scum not having a blocker is odd. You left off one big possibility though - Joshua as scum blocker. That could be why we've seen so few successful scum kills. They lost their blocker early on and so have been "defenseless" against our blocks/tracks/jails/protects. The may also have skipped some nights due to the risk of being tracked. I assume we had an investigator of some sort that we lost in the early days as well (which has hamstrung us to a significant extent), and they likely lost a role too (hurting their ability to kill). That's part of the reason I generally trust Emmett - the odds of the town losing ALL our investigative ability in the first couple nights is just super low. We don't know the roles of Michael, Remi, and Jean. But the odds of those 3 being all our investigative abilities - in a game where we seem to have 3 blockers - is just too low.

Our discussions last night... the PM is between me, Fred, and Emmett. 1. I pm'd first, asking Fred if he saw anything we could do to convince everyone we're both town. I then said my top names for blocking would be Aiden, Peter, and Trenton. 2. Emmett replied, unsure if I'm town still, says since Aiden's claim has no action, he should track him to check that while we block the other two. 3. I say sure, suggest E tracks A, I block Trenton, and Fred blocks Peter. 4. Fred agrees, so I sent my action in. For what it's worth, yes, Vincent came to me as he said, before he said anything to Peter (he shared that same PM quote with me after he sent it) asking my thoughts on testing Peter that way. He was hoping Peter might accept the help in which case he'd out Peter as scum today. (the PM he quoted that he sent me is accurate). My thoughts at this point - as I was discussing at length with Vincent last night... I thought that 3:3:1 would be parity and game would be over, so I was afraid we wouldn't have today. It makes sense though that it's not - the point of parity is that if scum=town, then the scum can prevent a lynch and night kill to win. Even with blocking and stuff, eventually, they'd succeed, so at parity, the game is effectively over. With a neutral though, the scum are NOT at parity at 3:3:1 since Vincent can vote with town and the scum cannot FORCE a no-lynch. So 3:3:1 is absolutely a possible scenario today. It could also be 4:3 or 4:2:1. We don't know. Personally, I accept Vincent's neutral claim. It fits with how he's played the game and his role claim. I don't see any reason to lynch Vincent. I see no logical way he's scum, and the only thing we should be doing is trying to lynch scum.

I was assuming that parity meant town=scum is game over. But if bob meant scum=(town+anyone else) then I guess 3:3:1 would not be parity. The plan (and this is what happened as far as I know) was I block Trenton, Fred block Peter, and Emmett track Aiden. I was successful in my block, so at least we know that Trenton isn't the scum killer. Could still be scum. I'm curious if Emmett saw anything. We were running with a possiblity that he was actually godfather (so he was vocal the first couple days hoping to get investigated) and then inherited the kill, so he quieted down on later days. Also curious if Fred was successful. If he was, then that would leave either Vincent as the killer OR a lying Fred/Peter as the scum duo.

$%^#$%#$%!!!!! #$%^#$%^! Seriously, a kill and the game isn't over yet? Well, that tells us one thing. We didn't start with a neutral AND 4 scum. If we had, we'd be at 3 town, 3 scum, and 1 neutral right now and day 7 wouldn't exist. So either there were only 3 scum, or Vincent is actually town.

I find it interesting that several of our most suspicious players haven't put a vote down - Peter, Trenton, Robin, plus Emmett. Emmett at least blatantly said he doesn't want a lynch. But the other 3 of you? Please take a stand. Even if he can, that would use up that ability. I can't imaging giving someone more than 1 shot governor. And what would it prove? I guess that he HAS the ability. But considering our other roles we've seen from bob, would it indicate his alignment? Not to me. Mafiascum says governor can be either, although mafia govs are usually overpowered and only used in game with multiple ways to kill. Well, we did have a vig... Or it might make sense if we did only have 3 scum to start with.... But then why wouldn't he have used it to save Joshua?

I try to get some sleep and look at the chaos I come back to. First, I've been operating this whole time assuming we started with 4 scum to find. Now I've gotta consider if Vincent being neutral really means there's 3 like he's suggesting it might. IN THAT CASE, then lynching him might make sense to give us a night to do more blocking/tracking tests (or Emmett's no-lynch suggestion would do the same), since a wrong lynch at this point is almost surely game over. Gotta ponder on that some more. I will say that his claim of being a neutral bulletproof survivor is the first claim this entire game that I've immediately accepted as actually true :) It fits with everything he's said and done. One thing I'll point out Vincent, as you rehash the entire game looking for clues... don't forget that the scum can't day-communicate like normal. That could be part of what's thrown off your reads this game. They can't coordinate fake fights from behind the scenes, or discuss accusations, or plan votes. We can't either, but the town doesn't rely on that the way the scum do. Alright. It's Sunday morning and I gotta go to church and take my mind off this for a while. Anyone wanna join me? The organ is getting boring - we could use some tuba in there. It'd be fun to wake up the old ladies with... Someone wanna grab Fabien's trumpet?

I'm back... One I didn't examine yet (and remember, I'm looking at everyone basically assuming they're scum and seeing if that can work) Fred: We know he can block. Is he a scum blocker? (and yes, pretty much everything I say about him applies the same to me). We really have no way of knowing. He blocked Justin once and he's been proven town, but his other block targets are not. He might be preventing kills. He might be keeping townies from using their abilities. We just don't know. After all that... assuming 3 of you are scum... My strongest town-reads are Vincent and Emmett. So that means 3 out of Peter, Trenton, Aiden, and Robin are scum. One is town. Honestly, I think I'm leaning scum most on Vote: Aiden My case above where he could be godfather seems the most plausible to me. With the way he privately claimed to Vincent (metagaming here, but everyone seems to claim to vincent... and so it could again have been hoping to get investigated/tracked/etc to be "cleared") and the way his activity levels have changed... Vincent, when did he claim to you again? Which night?

Ordinarily I'd be pushing for a Vincent lynch after that claim of his since it is likely a 3rd party role. At this point, we don't have the luxury of that: If Vincent is 3rd party, then we're likely at 4 town : 3 scum : 1 3rd party. If Vincent is town, then we're likely at 5 town : 3 scum. If it's the first and we don't lynch a scum, they can win tonight. Lynching the 3rd-party-vincent would be completely irrelevant and would probably give the scum the win. I'd rather have town AND vincent win than have just scum win. If it's the second, lynching Vincent hurts the town and lets scum win tonight as well. So as far as I'm concerned, lynching Vincent is off the table. It would take serious convincing that he IS scum to change my mind on that. Looking at others and trying to think of how they could be scum: Peter/Trenton. I think a lot of us keep mentally lumping you two together. You've both been pretty quiet all game. You've both made fairly weak, unprovable claims today. You could be scum buddies. You could be just quiet (either personality, or real life busyness, or whatever). You could both be noobs. Do I risk the entire game on picking one of you to lynch? Not sure yet. Trenton has been tracked and not seen doing anything. Could have been scum choosing not to kill, or his mason claim could be legit. Peter's been blocked 2 times when there was no kill, so of the two, he's the more likely scum killer IMHO. Aiden. You've got an odd role claim that you haven't used. Your vocal beginnings to the game could indicate a godfather hoping to be investigated... and when that never materialized, you claimed governor since that's something we can't really test. You've only been blocked once, and there was no kill that night. You COULD easily be a scum killer. If you're scum, I'm guessing godfather who inherited the kill from Joshua. Your posting level did drop after the first 2 days... Robin. Claims limited doctor, but has used it 3 out of 5 days. Not sure what the limits there are - x shot, or what. It's not alternating nights since you protected Emmett 2 nights in a row. That's unusual - in my experience, doctors usually can't protect the same person twice in a row. But bob doesn't follow the normal, so I don't wanna metagame that too much. Was jailed night 2 when there was a scum kill, so not the scum killer. Could be a scum protector though. If so, what if he and Emmett are scum buddies together? Both have roles that could be town or scum. Once we all started to lean town on Emmett, that gave Robin easy excuse to protect him from the vig. And now he can keep up the farce as long as the scum keep not killing to confuse us. Emmett. Verified tracking ability (or has a way to get tracking info from a scum buddy) He's never been blocked - so what if they're really messing with us and Emmett is the killer, not using it, and Aiden is a tracker? That seems unnecessarily complicated. More reasonable is that Emmett is scum tracker. I note that he hasn't managed to get any results that have actually helped the town kill scum. He tracked both Fred and me to verify our claims. He tracked Trenton and says he saw nothing - but what if he's lying? What if Trenton was out trying to kill that night and tried to kill Daniel, so he said Trenton did nothing to "clear him?" Let me go check who revealed first on that... nope, that doesn't work, because Emmett gave his results before Fabien claimed. Gotta run... minor insurrection to put down (kids are fighting) be back to finish going over everyone.

Robin, that could explain the lack of kill then - Emmett would be a logical person for the scum to try and kill. A lucky tracking of the killer would be the most condemning evidence against one of them right now.

You don't need refreshed in the memory - I hadn't said yet who I blocked. I (as agreed to by Fred and Emmett) blocked Aiden. With Fabien lynched, I didn't want to risk the governor resurrecting him, and then he'd have a chance to kill again. At that point, we all believed him scum - even I did, even through I didn't want him to be lynched. If Aiden decided to believe the vig claim (and remember, Aiden never voted for Fabien) and save him, but was wrong, then the scum-killer-Fabien would be free to kill and we would have no way to block it. I hadn't said, since I was hoping to see if Aiden would claim being blocked to see if he'd used his ability, but at this point, we need the info on who was blocked all in the open for analysis.

First, Vincent, that second message is a work of art. Although technically, the message doesn't have the "also" in it. You just spelled "and smells like poo" not "and also smells". But I'm being pedantic. Do you all know how much time I've had to spend on mafiascum wiki and other mafia sites looking up details of all these crazy roles this game? It's nuts. So in my reading on masons... that role does make sense in this game, since we're (both town and scum) restricted on communication. Having a couple townies that can day-chat would be useful, if they survived long enough to get some trust with others. However, with one dead right away, the role became pretty useless. Any chance either one of you did like the wiki suggests and breadcrumbed your partner's identity?