Generic Contest Discussion

[Zerobricks]

I think the number of points depends on the number of entries... Yeah too long building and voting times are rather dull.

[zweihander]

It's getting pretty clear what you guys prefer. Luckily for me this pretty much reflects the way we are running contests right now. I already planned on reducing the building time to 6 weeks for next contest. The only thing which isn't entirely clear yet is whether we need to provide 10 or 20 points to distribute. In retrospect (Mini Build Contest) I think 10 points will suffice.

In retrospect, I think people who look in detail and spend time on voting tend to distribute points to a large number of entries, whereas people who spend less time tend to just give the points to less number of entries, therefore making them jump ahead. Of course, I don't have any measurement on how long people spend on voting, so this is just a guess.

I think a Formula-1 style point system would force the people to spend points more evenly, therefore making the competition closer. But that's my 2 cents.

[Jim]

Formula One style will indeed make the competition closer. I am tempted to try this sometimes. Maybe we could vote again for the Mini Contest and see what happens to the results.

The problem with F1 voting style is you can't evenly distribute some points.

[Captainowie]

Re: Public vs Private voting.

Having the votes all in public means that anyone can audit the results if they wish. If anybody claims that their model wrongfully didn't win, it's easy to demonstrate that the votes weren't there. I haven't been able to think of an advantage to private voting that outweighs this accountability.

I think a Formula-1 style point system would force the people to spend points more evenly, therefore making the competition closer. But that's my 2 cents.

This is the first contest that I've been involved in here, but I don't think this is an issue. At the moment, there have been 50+ votes cast, with only 20 people distributing their votes across fewer than 6 entries - most of those voted for 4 or 5 entries. I think a F1-style will actually limit an even distribution of votes in most cases.

Owen.

[Jim]

Re: Public vs Private voting.

Having the votes all in public means that anyone can audit the results if they wish. If anybody claims that their model wrongfully didn't win, it's easy to demonstrate that the votes weren't there. I haven't been able to think of an advantage to private voting that outweighs this accountability.

Exactly my thoughts

[Rockbrick]

a lot models you like equally - not always one stands out - so formula 1 style voting would make it ethically difficult - allowing equal points to be distributed if that is how you want to do things

is better

[Jim]

a lot models you like equally - not always one stands out - so formula 1 style voting would make it ethically difficult - allowing equal points to be distributed if that is how you want to do things

is better

That's exactly how I feel about it. You have more freedom to equally grade one or more entries.

[Good old Lego builder]

_{During my education to become a teacher we learned that: lesser options to choose from when voting, gives a much clearer result. For example, when using a 10-point scale, people tend to not us extremes, thus not giving 1, 2 of 9 or then. When using a 3 point scale, they have to have an opinion (good, mediocre, bad) for example.}

_{I think that also counts here: when using the old F1 system you have to choose some of the best creations. While the current system gives room to vote 10 points for creation A, while giving 1 point to 10 others. In the end, what do those 1 points signify? In the end, youre favorite, 'the one you would buy', gets most points.}

_{Of course, that is when voting to determine a winner, not when voting to also show appreciation for effoort and other criteria, I think.}

[Jim]

_{During my education to become a teacher we learned that: lesser options to choose from when voting, gives a much clearer result. For example, when using a 10-point scale, people tend to not us extremes, thus not giving 1, 2 of 9 or then. When using a 3 point scale, they have to have an opinion (good, mediocre, bad) for example.}

_{I think that also counts here: when using the old F1 system you have to choose some of the best creations. While the current system gives room to vote 10 points for creation A, while giving 1 point to 10 others. In the end, what do those 1 points signify? In the end, youre favorite, 'the one you would buy', gets most points.}

_{Of course, that is when voting to determine a winner, not when voting to also show appreciation for effoort and other criteria, I think.}

I agree (and I didn't forsee this coming) that there's too much difference between 10 points and 1 point. It's useless to give an entry 1 point. It doesn't mean anything more than "I liked your entry, but not so much".

Therefor it's probably better to stick to 10 points with 5 max per entry. Or use the old style Formula One voting system. The latter has the disadvantage that you can't judge two entries equally.....which can be considered realistic, since most contest don't allow for equal judging.

[Good old Lego builder]

I agree Jim.

[Lipko]

I don't agree with F1 style voting. On an F1 race, there is clearly an order of cars passing the finish line. In a contest like this, it's pretty easy to have almost equal entries for a particular voter (I would buy all these equally awesome entries and I wouldn't "more" buy or "less" buy one of them).

In scoring based sports (like diving), there is no rule at all that you cannot give the same points to more contestants. I don't know how the idea of applying of F1 style voting even came up.

As for the 1 point per entry voting: I think it's easy to solve with having much smaller max-point-per-entry value (like 4) and not forcing to allocate all the 20 (or whatever) points.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Lipko

[jorgeopesi]

Now, too late , I think 20 points make too much difference between MOCs if you use 10 points vote but as I said too late.

[Alasdair Ryan]

Now, too late , I think 20 points make too much difference between MOCs if you use 10 points vote but as I said too late.

There is many people who agree with you, me included.

[Jim]

Yup, 10 points is better!

[zweihander]

I don't agree with F1 style voting. On an F1 race, there is clearly an order of cars passing the finish line. In a contest like this, it's pretty easy to have almost equal entries for a particular voter (I would buy all these equally awesome entries and I wouldn't "more" buy or "less" buy one of them).

In scoring based sports (like diving), there is no rule at all that you cannot give the same points to more contestants. I don't know how the idea of applying of F1 style voting even came up.

As for the 1 point per entry voting: I think it's easy to solve with having much smaller max-point-per-entry value (like 4) and not forcing to allocate all the 20 (or whatever) points.

You make a good point. I withdraw my opinions about F1 style voting :)

[Good old Lego builder]

To continue my previous point, I would go as far as to only give points to your top 3 (gold silver, bronze), with some distinction, like 10, 6 and 3 points. Life is making choices

[CharlieBravo]

I tend to agree with Good ol lego builder.

After looking through some of the ways people are voting in the mini thread, some people spread votes across many models, some people allocate 10 points to just a few. In this instance, the voting isn't quite comparing apples to apples, and a few 10s will push a model far ahead. So my vote would be to an F1-style system or similar in the future so that there is a structure, consistent method of applying votes across all users.

CB

Edited August 4, 2014 by CharlieBravo

[Jim]

I kind of regret changing the total points to 20, but there's nothing I can do about it anymore.

At the end of the day, the best model(s) will probably win, but I agree it's not voting in optima forma.

I am really stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to the best voting scheme. One moment I like distributing 10 points, but the other moment I think Formula one style is better, because you really need to make a decision.

[Good old Lego builder]

Maybe we should just try the F1-voting. Afterwards you / we can judge if that is any better.

And as you mentioned, at the end of the day the best model will probably win. Probably.

[Jim]

I am definitely in favor of trying the F1 scheme, in the next contest or do a "fake revote" for this contest to compare scores.

[zweihander]

I am definitely in favor of trying the F1 scheme, in the next contest or do a "fake revote" for this contest to compare scores.

I don't think a fake revote would yield trustable results. Current voting participation is quite high since it is frontpaged, and people from other subforums are participating a lot as a result. In the case of a fake revote, most people would not take the time to vote again, and percentage of technic subforum regulars among the total votes would be higher, therefore results may change drastically.

If we can devise an algorithm to convert the current votes to F1 scheme, that would yield a better result, with the exception that finding that algorithm is almost impossible.

But I'm definitely in favor of trying it out in the next contest.

[Jim]

I can compare F1 voting with 20 points voting only for people who voted in both the real and the fake voting.

[Lipko]

I can imagine having to make a decision from equally good entries would result more in randomness of the top scorers. Because I in this contest, for example, could only chose from my favourites by flipping a coin (or wouldn't vote instead).

Maybe this randomness would balance statistically.

So dunno

Edited August 4, 2014 by Lipko

[Boulderer]

Having seen the voting to date, I'd have to agree that the flexible allocation of votes may not be the best solution. As others have said, a structured scoring system may work better.

Lets face it though, a lot of these scoring methods are frequently up for debate amongst the elite sports, so there is always going to be an element of subjectivity to any decision

As to the people who can't decide ... this isn't exactly "Sophie's Choice" ... grow a pair!

[Lipko]

We could go as far as naming only one entry. No points.