Fake electric motors

[TheTruePA]

Discussion about fake electric motors in Technic line

The 21th century’s most important trend in automotive industry is the electrification. In most of the developed countries the selling of electric cars are skyrocketing. It simply cannot be ignored.
On the other hand, innovation is key element for a successful company, and decision makers at LEGO are aware of it.
Sooner or later this would be scheduled, if it is not already.

To make it easy to visualize, I created a concept version of them in the previous 3-4 month. I attached an application picture and a small Q&A-style description too, so everything is availale for a good discussion.

Please also give me feedback about the concept.

 

Applications

Fake V12 + fake electric motor in hybrid arrangement, powered by 9V battery

 

double fake electric motors in perpendicular arrangement; powered by DC motor in generator mode (no battery box)

double fake electric motors in regular arrangement, powered by DC motor in generator mode (no battery box)

 

 

What is this actually?
This is a lego compatible fake electric motor concept in a form of re-imagined Fibre Optic solution.

Why is this good for us?
Opens the possibilities for hybrid drive systems and electric drive systems on a whole new level of details.
Now, you can combine the fake combustion engine (with the pistons) with this fake electric motor and/or replicate a pure electric driven hyper car. Want to build a Tesla or Rimac Nevera supercar for example? Sure, you can do it now.

But LEGO has their own electric motor family already.
Well, yes but it is different. I think LEGO has dual approach for (at least) 2 different purposes for their sets. In one hand education and display, in the other hand motorized functions.
For education and display they use the fake combustion engine blocks with pistons. For functionality they use the (working) electric motors. But if we see it closer, 2 point are missing: working combustion engine and fake electric motor.
I am not expecting to see any working combustion engines from LEGO for many-many reasons. But the fake electric motor is possible; in addition, it would perfectly fit into their system.

But why would LEGO use a fake electric motor if they have a working one?
Then why aren’t they using them in every set?
The problem is the price. Electric motors and their accessories cost way more than a simple manual function. The specific target audience who wants a nice display set and interesting building experience would not necessarily use motors especially for extra 100 €. If you check the 42156 Peugeot hyper car set, it already contains a basic form of fake electric motor. In my opinion this application has way more potential so I created mine.

How did I get the idea?
I remember the 1st time when I played with the fake combustion engine in set 8815 (around 25 years ago) and how mesmerizing I found the moving piston. Just watched it for minutes. Later I tried to build the V6, V8, etc. engines. I would like to replicate that feeling for the electric motors. The fake engine is a simplified model of the real one: the natural association of it is the moving pistons.
When I was wondering about the simplified electric motor model, the first association would be magnets, but it would lead really far away. Instead of magnetism a nice and close approach can be the light.
The final inspiration comes from the fibre optics solution which was made by LEGO more than 20 years ago (legendary 8480 space shuttle), and I have the technical background to make this development.

What background do I have?
Of course I grew up on LEGO; especially the TECHNIC line is close to me up to the present day.
I have a degree in mechanical engineering and besides I coincidentally worked on small electric motor development for years.
Fun fact: that is the same location where the 2986 Micro motor was produced in Hungary. I saw it in the company's showcase vitrine every day.

How does it work?
The optical fibres illuminating due to the inner LEDs which are powered by either a battery box or a DC motor.
So the fake electric motor still needs power, but the output is light instead of mechanical rotation.
Meanwhile the rotor can be driven independently via an axle which goes trough the stator.

Design principles
The most important aspect for me is authenticity and the educative purpose.
In automotive industry the stator has the windings, which is represented here by optical cables. The high current is illustrated with the illumination.
The rotor consists of lamination stacks which is represented by the flat, circular 2x2 blocks. The magnet arrangement can be represented with stickers on the top. Those could be unique as it varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. Can you guess which car type is displayed on this example?

Spoiler

Tesla

It does not seem to be a finished product…
Yes, there are 2 major points which are open. The mounting and the electrical connection.
The mounting is currently possible with 2 pins + the axle. In normal circumstances a new element would be designed by the element designer in cooperation with the set designers (among others). The latest would define the requirements (how they would use it in the sets).
The other point is the electrical connection. First, LEGO has multiple generations of connectors which are not compatible with each other. Second, I want to maintain the option for either battery powered or electric motor powered version. So I keep the old-school, 2 wires connection. At this point there are no outer requirements but also no restrictions so I can expand to different directions.

What are the next steps?
I already have 3 slightly different wire arrangement (the more complex and authentic can be seen on the picture). I would like to focus on the optic fibres to make them more consistent in shaping and light emitting.
I also would like to create an axial flux motor version (flat motor).
But more importantly I am expecting an overall feedback how you guys like it, how would you and the audience use it for building.

 

 

Edited August 7, 2023 by TheTruePA

[Jurss]

Interesting idea. It would be good to have some fake eletrical motor, with some transparent body, so we could see rotating rotor. Glowing wiring is optional.

FYI, eurobricks is not for hosting pics, for that You can use f.i. bricksafe.com or any picture hosting service, then just copy/paste here link to picture, and it will embed.

[gyenesvi]

Interesting idea indeed! As for usage however, I'd expect something different; I'd expect that it does not need a battery or a motor (because that's what you wanted to avoid in the first place, no?) Instead, could it work like the fake piston engine, in which case the wheels are driving the pistons. For the fake electric motor, the rotational movement from the wheels could generate the light maybe? Then it would be the equivalent of the fake piston engine and would not need extra (expensive) components.

By the way, given your engineering background, aren't you interested in making non-fake lego electric motors? I could see an interest for that :) Like fast motor, small motor, servo motor, etc..

[TheTruePA]

6 hours ago, Jurss said:

Interesting idea. It would be good to have some fake eletrical motor, with some transparent body, so we could see rotating rotor. Glowing wiring is optional.

FYI, eurobricks is not for hosting pics, for that You can use f.i. bricksafe.com or any picture hosting service, then just copy/paste here link to picture, and it will embed.

Thanks, I updated the post with pictures according your suggestions about bricksafe. I try to remove the remaining images, but they simply do not disappear...

[TheTruePA]

5 hours ago, gyenesvi said:

Interesting idea indeed! As for usage however, I'd expect something different; I'd expect that it does not need a battery or a motor (because that's what you wanted to avoid in the first place, no?) Instead, could it work like the fake piston engine, in which case the wheels are driving the pistons. For the fake electric motor, the rotational movement from the wheels could generate the light maybe? Then it would be the equivalent of the fake piston engine and would not need extra (expensive) components.

By the way, given your engineering background, aren't you interested in making non-fake lego electric motors? I could see an interest for that :) Like fast motor, small motor, servo motor, etc..

 

Actually, I do not try to avoid battery box. The whole electric drive unit consist of Motor(s) + Battery pack + wires (+ inverter). I believe they cannot really separate from each other, as we may do it with the combustion engines (fuel tank, pipes, etc.).

Despite my opinion, I agree with you partly, the power supply is not really necessary in less authentic build / smaller scale. When I developed this solution, mostly the potential 1:8 supercars were in my mind.

Yes, my first idea contained magnets, but it would lead far away and would cause unnecessary complications in design (--> would be expensive, hard to achieve, but absolutely awesome idea)

But for extra ideas:

• builds with electric drive unit people can significantly reduce or totally remove the gearbox
• you may create a gearbox arrangemet where combustion engine only works in forward direction (in hybrid mode); backward is powered only with fake electric motor

4 minutes ago, TheTruePA said:

By the way, given your engineering background, aren't you interested in making non-fake lego electric motors? I could see an interest for that :) Like fast motor, small motor, servo motor, etc.

Well, could be, but honestly I don't see the point. Lego, Buwizz and others already provide a variety of solutions. Rpm can be modified easily with ratios. Power can be added with extra motor.

From the other hand I think the limitation occurs more on component integrity than power (broken parts, heat and deformation).

Edited August 7, 2023 by TheTruePA

[gyenesvi]

3 minutes ago, TheTruePA said:

Actually, I do not try to avoid battery box.

You wrote this, that's why I assumed it:

9 hours ago, TheTruePA said:

Then why aren’t they using them in every set?
The problem is the price. Electric motors and their accessories cost way more than a simple manual function.

Much of that price is the battery box. And most of the space required. No way that already expensive 1:8 supercars that are designed to be put on the shelf will get a battery box in them just to make the fake electric motor glow.

You also write that you want to keep the option for an electric motor powered version? How would that work? A battery would drive the electric motor, and the motor would make drive the fake engine to make it glow? That sounds complicated. I might be misunderstanding something here..

3 minutes ago, TheTruePA said:

builds with electric drive unit people can significantly reduce or totally remove the gearbox

Also, consider that the gearbox and the piston engine are the only technical function in the 1:8 supercars. If they'd remove those, there would be not much technical left in there.

I could see 1:10 cars more of a target for this.

[TheTruePA]

3 minutes ago, gyenesvi said:

You wrote this, that's why I assumed it:

Much of that price is the battery box. And most of the space required. No way that already expensive 1:8 supercars that are designed to be put on the shelf will get a battery box in them just to make the fake electric motor glow.

You also write that you want to keep the option for an electric motor powered version? How would that work? A battery would drive the electric motor, and the motor would make drive the fake engine to make it glow? That sounds complicated. I might be misunderstanding something here..

Also, consider that the gearbox and the piston engine are the only technical function in the 1:8 supercars. If they'd remove those, there would be not much technical left in there.

I could see 1:10 cars more of a target for this.

 

The analogy is the following IMO:

	reality	lego
drive unit	electric motors	fake electric motors
power source	a huge battery pack	DC motor (9V battery pack optional)
wires	a lot	symbolic
inverter	yes	can be brickbuilt, stickered or ignored

Lets say, In my built I would not put a 9V battery box, because it is expensive and unnecessary. However others might add it, and you never know what clever usage would come later. This is why I would keep it possible to connect with them.

If you provide electricity for a DC motor, it will rotate. If you rotate a DC motor shaft, it will create voltage (current in closed circuit). With adequate rpm the DC motor can provide enough power to supply the fake motors. So you understood correctly, but not so complicated as it sounds.

You still need 1 DC motor (or 9V battery box), but not 2-4. And the price of a working motor (or battery box) is at least several times the price than a fake one. (Okay, that is really depends on the scale, on the supplier, on the margins and a lot of other things.)

About the technical functions, I do not aggree. First: there are plenty of possibilities for other cool functions (door mechanisms, spoilers, cabrio roof, adjustable suspension). Second: electric cars generally have a few speed gearbox as well. Third: the set's piece count can be reduced. Fourth: 1:8 cars are about authenticity and more like sculptures with nice but not necessarily cutting-edge technical functions.

But yes, the 1:10 cars could use also.

By the way, I did not mentioned the size: diameter: 30 mm, lengt without optical wires 20 mm (2,5 stud), with wires around 5 stud.

[Zerobricks]

I was thinking about this before too, but I think having a simple generator with integrated voltage control linked to PU lights would be much simpler. This way when you push the model, the headlight would light up. I think it would be a great alternative for fake piston engines. You could also use a supercapacitor instead of the battery box to charge it up and it should be able to keep the lights on for quite some time due to their low current use.

[TheTruePA]

On 8/7/2023 at 11:28 PM, Zerobricks said:

I was thinking about this before too, but I think having a simple generator with integrated voltage control linked to PU lights would be much simpler. This way when you push the model, the headlight would light up. I think it would be a great alternative for fake piston engines. You could also use a supercapacitor instead of the battery box to charge it up and it should be able to keep the lights on for quite some time due to their low current use.

Actually this is how the application car works. The simple generator in my case the old 9V motor. Just instead of PU lights I connected to my solution. But brick built rotor + PU lights would work too. For me, the authenticity and educativeness would be a insufficient, but I can imagine great constructions this way as well.

The supercapacitor idea is definietly interesting, but I dont know whether it worth extra 1-2 seconds or not. My problem would be the space requirement: internally I hardly have enough space. In external arrangement is possible, as long as I know Lego (and others) already have it.

[TheTruePA]

On 8/7/2023 at 2:33 PM, Jurss said:

Interesting idea. It would be good to have some fake eletrical motor, with some transparent body, so we could see rotating rotor. Glowing wiring is optional.

Yes, I see. But don't expect too much visual orgasm, because these motors generally rotate faster, than the eye could enjoy it. But technically you are right, that is an alternative solution.

Slowing it down, the rotor movement would be observable, but would not provide enough power for light. And you still have the costs of an actually working motor (okay slightly less due to the lack of speed reduction gears, but also a new housing have to be designed for this). This is another possibility.

To handle the low rotation speed + enough power providing, we would need more performance from rotor, which means primarily bigger size. So technically a new motor. Maybe the nowadays used large angular motors could be used (definietly without the gearbox).

 

Personally I think the most authentic alternative of my solution would be a transparent motor with integrated light (optimized to generator mode). But it requires even more development and add extra complexity --> it would increase the price.

 

By the way, this is why I kept the electric part and the mechanical rotation independent in my solution. I have the freedom to keep the fake rotor speed low, while the power source electric motor speed can be reached with accelerating ratios. And this accelerating ratio is still adjustable based on how much power I need (how many electric consumer are in the system).

Edited August 9, 2023 by TheTruePA